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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Mar-20-10, 09:00
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKstyle
Our only carb-y foods are oranges and 1 daily slice of Ezekiel bread as a ghee-vehicle.
Both of those are on the list of foods to avoid eating regularly. Oranges have fructose and Ezekiel is grain. Could you switch to carrots and potatoes?

Also, JK uses NET carbs. That's how they list them in Poland. I know Ezekiel has lots of fiber, so are you getting enough net carb? It makes a difference. JK says it's mistake to go too low in carbs, unlike other low carb advisers.
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  #17   ^
Old Sat, Mar-20-10, 09:50
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Posts: 19,092
 
Plan: VLC/~keto dirty primal
Stats: 520/393.2/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 75%
Location: Ozarks USA
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My daughter is 13 and very overweight. I caused this by what we ate. If she is on genuine low carb (<35 carbs/day), avoiding grains and fruits, emphasizing meats and animal (or coconut/palm) fats, she loses weight. Anything else we have done, and those options have been many the last 3 years, she is miserable, obsessed with food, and gains weight. Bottom line: meat/amino acids are food, she is growing, she NEEDS the "building blocks of life." If she gets any less of them than she needs, she will want to eat or be unhealthy and unhappy. My rule to my daughter is this: eat all the meat and eggs you want. No limits. Eat all the lettuce, tomato, onion, pepper, salad you want -- but limit the ranch dressing. Take these vitamins. And we will eat together whenever possible, where we often add cheese or dairy in various forms to things. Lots of burgers with cheese (dipped in something like ranch), or taco plates, or scrambled eggs with veggies and cheese. She likes the food ok, and she is not hungry even though we recently shifted to eating only twice a day. If she is hungry I tell her to have coffee with cream, or meat, or eggs. This seems to be working for her. Fwiw.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Mar-21-10, 11:23
JKstyle JKstyle is offline
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Posts: 12
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 125/118/120 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeypie
you use calculus invictus to calculate the ratios? You mean in the same way you would use a calculator I assume?


Yes, as a calculator. It's the gram recommendations based on the data for each person that are incorrect (for maintenance ratio, at least) in the software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
Both of those are on the list of foods to avoid eating regularly. Oranges have fructose and Ezekiel is grain. Could you switch to carrots and potatoes?

Also, JK uses NET carbs. That's how they list them in Poland. I know Ezekiel has lots of fiber, so are you getting enough net carb? It makes a difference. JK says it's mistake to go too low in carbs, unlike other low carb advisers.


Good point, I think we are... We also eat nuts and some vegetables. I know bread and oranges are not recommended. They are the least desireable foods in our diet. I've tried several times cutting them out and it seems too difficult for now - ghee consumption falls off and honestly I don't feel so good without .5 orange / day. Don't know why. Some days my daughter doesn't eat any oranges at all. Some days no bread at all (true for both of us).

I'm seeing from the feedback that I have 2 other biases beyond the body image issue that may be getting in the way. First, we are 80%+ raw and have been for years. Meaning no one cooks anything in the home (except toast). The occasional hot breakfast comes from a local cafe, and meats are precooked/smoked. We like living this way and feel best on raw food. But it limits our options.

Second, I personally have skepticism about high(er) protein consumption. When I first started low-carbing my protein was pretty high and it was intolerable (kidneys aching, foaming urine, nausea, cravings). I know of several other people who have had issues with protein. This is a key point that JK makes in Homo Optimus: "Compared with other types of diet, human protein and energy requirements are the lowest when on the optimal diet. For an adult person, these requirements do not exceed 50 grams of protein and 2000 kcal for a 24-hour period." BUT I have not been a well person; my daughter isn't me; she is not an adult person.

I will talk to my daughter about the weight loss ratio and see if she wants to try it, keeping her protein level above 65g / day.

Thanks for all the great feedback!

Last edited by JKstyle : Sun, Mar-21-10 at 11:30.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Mar-21-10, 13:48
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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I have some weeks with no cooking too. Hard boiled eggs, raw milk cheese, and meat cooked elsewhere. I see how pleasant it can be. Maybe you can eat out for some suchi or steak tartare too.

JK's practice was older and sick people too. it does seem as if a teen could do the 67 g + 10% and be fine. He also doesn't address an active life except to say that manual laborers need the max protein.

Oh I just realized! JK would say she's already at goal weight.
Maybe it's time for re-shaping. Like T-Tapp, one of my favorite programs for getting tight (the opposite of fluffy?) and strong and shapely in very little time.
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Mar-21-10, 19:38
JKstyle JKstyle is offline
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Posts: 12
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 125/118/120 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Thanks, Seejay, and everyone.

I just talked to my daughter about everything that was said here. She was deeply appreciative of the thoughtful, detailed, and supportive feedback that everyone provided. She was genuinely touched by the care that you all showed in responding!

She's decided that she will increase her protein to 70g and follow a ratio of 1 : 2 : .5 (p:f:c). That seems reasonable to me, it's somewhere in between the maintenance and weight loss ratios. Most important, it's her educated decision.

She also agreed that she needs to tone up and said she knows that she's fallen off the wagon (we both used to do a lot of fitness tapes but when my health declined and I was unable, she slacked off). We are both intrigued by T-Tapp and will investigate!

Finally, she said that she's really been thinking about her body image over the past week and has realized that a negative body image remains even if even if a person can lose weight or tone up, and further, that it demotivates a person to make any improvements.

She's very happy to hear that her body shape is desirable from a health standpoint, and that she's not really overweight. She said that these opinions you've offered makes it easier for her to accept her body.

So this is all good! I will report on her progress after a while. The biggest and best changes are already firmly rooted, it seems.

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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Mar-21-10, 23:30
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Wow, I am impressed at both of you. Does my heart good to hear of a youngster getting such good stuff at a young age. Maybe we can collectively make a difference and blast into the past, our own rotten teenage years with bad info.

thank you!
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Apr-01-10, 08:37
JKstyle JKstyle is offline
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Posts: 12
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 125/118/120 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Hi everyone,

My daughter went into / intensified ketosis within 24 hours after increasing her protein and adjusting the ratio to 1 : 2: .5 (p:f:c)

We were both very surprised because she has been eating under 40g carbs / day for months but apparently failed to maintain a good fat-burning metabolism during that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seejay
45g [of protein] could be slowing her down by sending signals to the body to conserve energy because not enough is coming in.


Perhaps that it why.

Anyway, she is miserable with induction flu but is losing a little weight and her digestion is moving again.

She's only eating 1800 calories / day and I worry it's not enough. Sometimes she feels really shaky and loopy. Twice now I've insisted she have a little snack: 3 orange slices and a few nuts once and an extra piece of meat another time. Maybe that's wrong for the weight loss but I worry about her becoming sickened. We both can't figure out why she's having such extreme discomfort unless it's due to an insulin imbalance / metabolic problem.

I definitely have either Type II or something similar (in addition to another health problem) and I had the most awful time with induction. I had to ease into it over weeks; I could tell that it was possible that this could go seriously wrong. I didn't think my daughter had Type II or similar, but maybe she does.

She's committed to stick to this until she drops soem more weight. She's also gotten more active (tough to do when you're weak). I bought her some new clothes and scheduled a massage, and that seems to be boosting her confidence.

Last edited by JKstyle : Thu, Apr-01-10 at 08:46.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Apr-01-10, 11:36
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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That all sounds like an abrupt and rocky transition from predominately sugar-burning to fat-burning. It takes a few days or weeks to get the fat-burning enzymes fully on board, and in the meantime, there is no energy unless it comes from carbs. Could she stand going from .5 to .8 of carbs just during transition? Even JK says adding just 10-15 grams can alleviate the shakes etc.

i honestly think it's a bad idea to do things that make you feel bad. That's why I disrespect giving oneself the induction flu. That's like the Stalinist central control model of healing the body - the body protests, but your central brain ignores the peasantry? Sorry if this is muddled - I'm sort of thinking out loud.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Apr-01-10, 12:18
JKstyle JKstyle is offline
New Member
Posts: 12
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 125/118/120 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Well, it's good to know that this sounds "normal," though harsh. I frankly couldn't stand this process and though I stuck to the diet I supplemented with decreasing amounts of orange slices for many weeks to get me through it. It helped lift my blood sugar when I was doing very poorly.

I agree that she shouldn't feel so bad. I'll recommend an increase in carbs. Maybe she could just do it as a snack like I did, only when needed. Or some steamed carrots that can be eaten with butter. A better way to get a little more carbs than eating orange slices?

She seems to be calming down in the last week or so too. We've had a few long talks about letting go of the old and being able to welcome the unknown. She can see that she will be leaving home very soon and it's got her very rattled. She's been walking around like an angry knot for quite awhile now. I think we've now both committed to finish this childhood phase with grace and appreciate the closure. In addition to the diet I think she was basically shut down from stress.



Great support here, thanks!
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Apr-01-10, 12:55
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Gosh yes. My DD wasn't ready to leave home after high school either - she stayed a couple of years while going to community college. She's a homebody for sure. In fact she wasn't really ready to go until she said, people start to look at you funny if you still live with Mom, like you live in the basement or something and have no friends. She is out now but the whole thing left me a big fan of slow transitions... hm a pattern - no catastrophic changes for me.

Steamed carrots sound great.

I can't stand feeling bad any more either!
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Apr-09-10, 09:10
JKstyle JKstyle is offline
New Member
Posts: 12
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 125/118/120 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress:
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This morning my daughter told me that she has lost about 8 pounds since April 1!

Her induction symptoms faded away without much alteration in her carb intake. She's been feeling just fine.

I had been noticing that she seemed "trimmer" and less "puffy." I'd describe it as her metabolism seems to be working again. She has better color in her face, a smoother complexion, and seems to be less bloated in the mid-section and upper arms. She said she hasn't been constipated and has been feeling "better:" more energy, freer respiration, calmer, better sleep...

She's been following the ratio of 1 : 2 : .5 (p:f:c) with 70g protein.

We're both very happy!
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  #27   ^
Old Fri, Apr-09-10, 11:06
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Wahoo!!! Thanks for letting us know! I am smiling big.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Apr-09-10, 21:35
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Posts: 19,092
 
Plan: VLC/~keto dirty primal
Stats: 520/393.2/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 75%
Location: Ozarks USA
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Yay! That's awesome!!! Tell her the folks at ACL say congratulations. :-)
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  #29   ^
Old Tue, Apr-13-10, 19:10
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honeypie honeypie is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,491
 
Plan: Cycling VLC with LC
Stats: -/-/134 Female 5'10
BF:
Progress: 56%
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That really is fantastic! And well done to you both!
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  #30   ^
Old Wed, Apr-20-11, 15:52
JKstyle JKstyle is offline
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Posts: 12
 
Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 125/118/120 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress:
Default Update 04/11

Hello, I wanted to follow up on this thread for any parents who may come upon it:

It's been a year since we've been *comfortably* lo-carbing - since I came here looking for advice. My daughter is now 17 and has been following a basically LC diet for a year on her own (since the last post).

I didn't mention before (didn't quite realize) that I raised my daughter on a LC diet by instinct alone until I "thought the better of it" and followed the popular lo-fat hi-carb advice in order to "preserve her health." So the baby who happily sucked down 3 "dippy eggs" and a buttered toast point re-emerged last year as a young lady who ate liverwurst for breakfast and took weightlifting in high school!

I'm not involved in her diet since this situation when we she and I had become concerned and I posted here. I have noticed since last year that she is careful to minimize carbs and that she exercises more. But also critical is that she has continued to grow! She is now what can only be described as statuesque. And even yet I can see how her bone structure, in her face, for example, will become even more defined as she matures. Sixteen is awfully young to place expectations on a body, I realize it clearly now as I see my daughter becoming an unmistakably adult human being.

To her credit, rather than wishing to "become small" like her peers, over the last year she learned to "be big" and enjoy the feeling of female strength. She said once, after school, "The other girls slip behind their desks, but I have to shove them all aside to get down the aisle!" And I boomed out: "Queens do not slip! The queen moves the desks aside and strides forth!" We both laughed, and I've kept that message up front for her, but on her own she's made wellness (strength, health through traditional low-carb eating, affirming accepting body image) her own and I couldn't be happier. No parent would wish for more!

!Best to all!
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