"I love the Triple Digits Forum, that's one of the most supportive and sensitive places on the Net I find, but one of my first posts there was in response to someone rudely telling another non-triple digiter posting there to get out because she couldn't possibly understand their concerns and challenges... I told whatsherface how much that hurt me, a mere lurker. "

I remember that exchange - I was so heartened by how many people stood up for her, though. We can all learn from each other.

I seem to have been unceremoniously deleted from the ZIOH forum. No notification of any kind, just "you have not entered a valid username and password combination." My posts have been deleted, but that hasn't stopped the discussion from slamming me personally. They sound like they think they're doing me a favor too:



I wonder what the point of the forum is. Clearly it's not to evangelize to doubters, it's not to teach beginners, it's not to answer questions, and they say it's not support. They seem to be taking issue with the fact that I've been on this forum for several years - do their members quit after a few months? Obviously Charles has been there longer, but why are so many other members so short-lived? Do they give up on zero carb? Maybe the just get sick of the place.

Maybe the forum for the zero carb elite to show off their badassness. Charles asserts that "to truly zero in on health, one has to be a little tougher than the average person." I guess you can make claims like that when you are the boss of your own forum.

To be fair, this is totally normal behavior for many religions. Zen monasteries traditionally reject people three times before they are allowed to join, and they have to go through what amounts to hazing rituals, sitting outside on the steps for days before they can enter the community, and then sitting alone in a room for days while the masters observe them. Judaism is also famously tough on converts.

I'd say ZIOH is a different place than here. My (personal) take is that there are three (somewhat implicit) rules:

1. You're ZC, or are rearranging your life so you can start ZC. They've had a rough time in the past finding a ZC space, and don't want to get overrun by DANDR people repeatedly asking why they can't have a salad, or various Paleo sects chastising them for eating too much saturated fat. I suspect that irritates veterans, and know it's discouraging to newcomers. Also, there are a lot more LC people who are not ZC than those who are. So it's easy to get a site that would get filled up with people discussing Frankenfoods, cravings, why they're stalled, etc. Not having to wade through that is refreshing.

2. A high level of personal initiative. Asking questions that could be answered in 30 seconds with google or that have a FAQ about them will generally get a harsh reply. I suspect the feeling is that if you're not that proactive you probably won't make it on ZC anyway. Also, asking someone else to do your google searches for you is a bit obnoxious. (How many times do you see "You guys keep using the term XYZ, what does that mean anyway?")

3. Don't offer opinions until you've been doing ZC for 6 months (questions are ok). I think this view is taken a bit further than it should be. For example, if Gary Taubes, author of Good Calories, Bad Calories, one of the holy texts at ZIOH (but he's not ZC as far as I know), wanted to chime in with his thoughts about metabolism while living ZC, I'd like to hear what he had to say.


If you stick within that framework, they are quite welcoming. I wrote about attending a "meetup" (a bunch of folks getting together for a ZC meat-fest) even though I was VLC, and got positive replies. At the dinner everyone was very nice. I made a few missteps on the ZIOH site, and it was..."pointed out to me." Yes, they can be very harsh, but it's not just to new people. One veteran just received a lot of grilling, and I think it really helped.

It's a different set of social norms than here, that's for sure. If you're thinking of (or have started) ZC, you should really check out the FAQs they have, as there really is some great stuff there. You'll have to decide for yourself whether joining fits with where you want to go.

joe

I don't think Cap'n Mikee falls into any of those categories. I can't imagine why anyone would be rude to him. Maybe he smells like cabbage.

Sounds kind of cultish actually.

I don't think I actually broke any of those rules, they just took issue with my open-mindedness:


I have rearranged my life. Several times, as I eliminated more and more foods from my diet - to the point where eating nothing but raw hamburger for a week or even doing a water fast wouldn't be far out of the ordinary for me.

I did a two-week carnivore experiment this summer and I had constant diarrhea. I am trying to make pemmican now so I can try it again. 90% of the time I'm already under 5g of carbs per day - my main plant food is lemon juice, for crying out loud! I would certainly not complain about not having salad and I'm all for saturated fat. I told them I thought all vegetables contained toxins, but they even deleted THAT post!


I've been on THIS forum for several years (apparently a bad thing), I've read a good deal of Charles' writing and a bit of their forum, and I've done enough Googling to know that I won't find an answer to "does anyone here eat beef jerky that's had flies on it while it dries in the sun?" I actually thought their responses to that were pretty wimpy - after all, isn't sun-drying the traditional method of making jerky? There's got to be some fly eggs on sun-dried jerky, my question was more about how much is tolerable and how much effort is needed to avoid it. Are these badass carnivores so wussy that they're afraid to eat a few maggots?


I wouldn't dream of it. I came there to ask questions. I was invited to introduce myself. I gave full disclosure, but I said I was willing to learn. Apparently that was the wrong answer. I was supposed to say "I'm already convinced that zero-carb is the One True Way and I will accept Charles Washington as my High Priest."

So they invited me to be a lurker. Um, yeah, right. I'm afraid I've never been much of a lurker. A forum isn't structured like a book or an encyclopedia. Reading other people's conversations seems a bit pointless to me; I either want to join the conversation or read a well-structured summary of its conclusions.


I was tempted to flounce out at first, but I thought maybe Charles was inviting me to stick with it when he asked me again if I was considering ZC. I said I was, but I got dropped anyway, so I guess I won't have the opportunity to be "corrected."


I guess it's not for me then, I have this peculiar trait of wanting people to be polite. I find that when people are respectful, it's actually easier to determine the facts of the situation, to make a decision about what's healthy based on evidence. I'm all for "tough love" but without the love it's just bullying. You can't tell someone what's good for them without listening to their situation - even if you're lucky enough to be right, they'll have no reason to believe that you understand enough to know.

Don't get worked up, hubby. I live with you and know how much of a badass you are (removing bone splinters lodged in your lip is pretty badass) and I haven't seen you eat more than about 7 g of carbs in one day in about 2-3 years. He's got his mom hanging around the forum - I would be ashamed to be so rude in front of my mom but, hey, to each his own.

If you can google the information you require, then that's the best alternative to stressing about when the hammer will land on your head. I had enough of that living with an alcoholic father that would pounce on you if you so much as accidently dropped your fork on the floor or other infractions that you would be completely unaware of.

Besides, I'm doing amazingly well without their help and/or so-called support. I'm almost at my 5 month mark with very few problems. I don't need "tough love" I need encouragement and intelligent and polite comments.

We actually like in the same city as CW - wonder if we'll ever run into each other?

I have read (somewhat embarrassed by this) thousands of pages of information, faq's, and journals over there, and have a very very good handle on the theories, but I did have a couple of questions that no zc fanatic (different from regular zc, in my opinion) even acknowledges, they just ignore that the post ever occurred. Or, I get the rant-y list of things you must do before I can "see the light" or whatever. The attitude is that anyone who has the audacity to wonder why/if there is a problem with using seasoning is just a pansy faker who "won't last" and needs someone to get in their face to show them how wrong they are. But why? Seriously? I JUST. DON'T. GET. IT. Who responds to being treated that way?

btw, I have been basically carnivore for the past couple of weeks and feel great, and have been very "meat/fat centric" for years, so I certainly was not approaching them with the attitude of someone who is going to be a pita about saturated fat, veggies, etc. So while I can understand not wanting to deal with newbie lazy questions, a) they could direct them to faq's in a polite and friendly way, and b) the major bitchyness has been directed at people who are not like that at all. It seems like the zioh crowd do not want to hear from people who are actually educated and self starters about meat/nutrition at all b/c we have questions that are irritating-ly without solid answers from Charles to regurgitate. (when I ask a question I would like personal experience, why did you find something to work best in such a way, etc, not "GET YOUR AS* IN GEAR AND DROP THE CRAP" or other similarly uninformative nonsense.

In any case, I learned a ton from the (enormous) pemmican thread, (capmikee btw, I would not eat the meat you described b/c I think that the temp was lower even than the "raw" dehydration temp sometimes used, and probably gave the meat enough time to spoil, on the other hand, there is one guy (Lex) who does eat 'slightly' soured meat sometimes, but even he does not let it go as long as yours did before he eats it, just fyi) and there IS a lot of other good info and interesting personal experience, just don't introduce yourself or ask anything for goodness sakes! ("LET GO OF YOUR UNHEALTHY ATTACHMENT TO FOOOOOOOOD! WhAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE??! I KNOW WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT SO DO WHAT I SAT B/C I AM AGGRESSIVE ABOUT IT! DO NOT QUESTION ME! DO YOU WANT HELP OR NOT?!?!") (love that "help" bit btw!) phew. I am exhausted just thinking about being that angry and full of myself...

Sounds like I'm not alone, bekkers! That's definitely a cult-like environment. It's more than teaching a certain philosophy, it's breaking down a member's individuality and being very hostile to outsiders.

I'll be sure to let you know if I get sick from the jerky. It's stopped smelling rotten and started smelling like ketchup, so I think maybe it soured in a pleasant way. It's had plenty of air, so I think botulism is out of the question. I wonder if there are fungi that commonly infect beef?

Awesome capmikee! I made some a couple of weeks ago and got really sick immediately, and it freaked me out pretty badly b/c of being in pretty early pregnancy. I dried the meat at not a "raw/cool" temp at all, but I am afraid it was maybe not as hot as it needed to be to kill bad bacteria, otherwise I have no idea why I reacted the way I did. If I was not pregnant I would try again at various temps, but it is going to have to wait! (I fed the rest to the dogs and they were fine, hmmmm...)

Oops, I realize my post could have had multiple interpretations. I wasn't commenting on your adventure or accusing you of certain missteps (being too lazy to use google, etc.). My goal was to let others know that the folks on ZIOH don't attack all new comers, and provide some strategies (from personal experience and watching other blowups) for preventing a bad initial experience. Sorry for any hurt feelings.

Wow, you're more hardcore than I am :-) Hamburger scares me as it is. Raw hamburger? (shudder) Although, plenty of raw food paleo types do fine with it.

I suspect that when your account was deleted it also automatically deleted all of your posts.

Well, there could be a concern that bugs have too much protein and not enough fat ;-) I also don't think of them as badass for eating weird parts of the animal. Most stick with muscle meat.

An interesting problem. There is a lot of community knowledge that would be of interest to VLC and paleo people. Your, quite reasonable, model is that why can't those folks ask questions and learn? ZIOH's, also rational, model is that the forum is designed to serve ZC folks and they don't want distractions. Their possible answer is that many of the "elders" there are on other sites as well if they're really interested in that. So there are definitely conflicting objectives.

There enough ZC folks over here that it's not much of an issue if you don't want to go to ZIOH.

joe

That's what I thought, but then I discovered my posts were still up on the pemmican thread.


Yeah, I think I just got bad advice last time I was told to go ask my questions over there.

hey everybody,

Sorry you've had a bad experience on another forum; it happens, unfortunately. While I agree that Charles' ZIOH views and opinions are fair game for criticism, please don't use our forum to drag out a drama or to bash members from other boards. If you still need to vent, I suggest sharing your story through pm's rather than on the public forum.

I'd also like to remind everyone about bashing other members on *this* board. If you feel someone's posts are offensive, the appropriate action is to report it to the moderators .. don't use another thread (including journals) to complain. You may also add someone to your Ignore list if you'd rather not read their posts at all.

We're well aware of recent tensions around here, and sincerely hope everyone can get back to the spirit of support.

Thanks for understanding


Doreen

Thanks for the reminder Over there, someone linked to this thread and ridiculed folks over here, too. Just human nature, I guess...