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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Oct-18-09, 21:08
Hismouse's Avatar
Hismouse Hismouse is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,488
 
Plan: Meat, Veggies, Nuts
Stats: 181/185/130 Female 61.5
BF:Falling Fluff
Progress: -8%
Location: Oregon
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Hi Mini, what caused you Seizure?

I hope to get my Test results back tomorrow or soon this next week.

I have a question since I have Ostopenia and am being re-checked again tomorrow, its been 5 yrs. does this have anything to do with being D deficient?
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 02:41
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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The point about prescription fish oil is NOT the price you pay via co pay or the price you can buy an equal amount of EPA ~DHA for over the counter. The scam involved the amount the insurance company, or in the UK the taxpayer for the fish oil.

In the end it isn't the amount you pay on copay that matters it is the total cost of medical insurance. The more we participate in scamming insurance companies everyone ends up paying more. The same thing happens in the UK with Glucosamine Sulphate.

We can buy a years supply online for the same price the NHS pays for one months prescription of the same substance.

Look at the price of Vitamin D2 to the NHS (or to the insurance company) and the cost of the more effective value for money Vitamin D3?

It's a pharmaceutical industry scam and we are all contributing to it by allowing it to continue by getting basic essentials like vitamin D or fish oil on prescription rather than buying our own.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 02:58
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hismouse
I have a question since I have Ostopenia and am being re-checked again tomorrow, its been 5 yrs. does this have anything to do with being D deficient?
Basically yes
To reduce the risk of Osteopenia you need adequate amounts of calcium, magnesium, vitamins D, K, and C as well as other minerals.

In order to absorb optimum amounts of calcium your vitamin D level MUST be above 80nmol/l = 32ng/ml (but ideally higher than that to reduce risk of other conditions)
When your 25(OH)D is above 32 you should be able (providing you eat plenty of good food sources of calcium) be able to solve the calcium shortage without resorting to supplements BUT it's likely you'll be unable to get sufficient MAGNESIUM from your diet so supplementing with magnesium as well as vitamin D is worthwhile.

So low vitamin D caused low intake of both calcium and magnesium BUT while raising vitamin D to above 32ng should correct the lack of calcium without extra supplements it's possible you could still be short of magnesium.
Vitamin K2 foodsources also need checking.
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 04:57
MiniMoe's Avatar
MiniMoe MiniMoe is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 290/250/200 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Ohio
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Hello Hismouse! I was diagnosed Type 2 diabetic back in 2003, and my doctor put me on metformin, along with medicine for hypertension, and pravastatin and fenofibrate for cholesterol and triglycerides. Since the metformin (and alcohol) kept my glucose level down, I didn't change my lifestyle. Since it was always good, I quit testing and didn't recognize when my pancreas finally quit producing insulin. I was drinking water and urinating so much, I eliminated my electrolytes, which led to the seizure in May 2009. Now I'm treated for epilepsy (can't drive again yet). I started on insulin, quit drinking alcohol, and started low-carbing.

I am not familiar with Osteopenia as Ted (Hutchinson) is, but I don't supplement calcium, since much of what I eat supplies it (see his first link). I don't give much credence to the Vitamin D2 supplement in milk or cereal since I can't eat those.

I don't have depression, but I find this site to have some good info on magnesium, and what foods have it and calcium in what proportions. I supplement one 200 mg (50% RDI) Carlson Chelated Magnesium (glycinate) and get taurine with it from cottage cheese and other cheeses. I also eat nuts, particularly almonds. Other than the multivitamin, I don't supplement Vitamin K beyond that in the Centrum Silver, since I eat many green, leafy vegetables.

I hope this helps, and I look forward to your soon test results.
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  #20   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 05:06
MiniMoe's Avatar
MiniMoe MiniMoe is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 290/250/200 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Ohio
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Ted, I respect your choice to pay for supplements your insurance would cover. I don't know what my insurance provider pays for Lovaza, but they do classify it as non-formulary, so I have to assume they notice the cost and negotiate better than most for it. I choose not to pay twice for covered items since my insurance company seems to be doing well financially with my premiums. YMMV.
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  #21   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 06:41
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,564
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hismouse
Hi Mini, what caused you Seizure?

I hope to get my Test results back tomorrow or soon this next week.

I have a question since I have Ostopenia and am being re-checked again tomorrow, its been 5 yrs. does this have anything to do with being D deficient?

Osteopenia is definitely D related. It's the first step to osteoporosis. The bones are below normal density but not yet thin enough to be classified as osteoporosis.

Now's the time to reverse that trend.
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  #22   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 06:45
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,564
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMoe
Ted, I respect your choice to pay for supplements your insurance would cover. I don't know what my insurance provider pays for Lovaza, but they do classify it as non-formulary, so I have to assume they notice the cost and negotiate better than most for it. I choose not to pay twice for covered items since my insurance company seems to be doing well financially with my premiums. YMMV.

That makes sense. But do you have a copay? And if so, what is it in comparison to you purchasing it yourself?

A friend of mine started ordering from Biotech when her copay for a 3 month supply...12 softgels...of D2 her doctor prescribed cost more than 100 D3 capsules...a 25 month supply...from Biotech.
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  #23   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 07:18
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMoe
Ted, I respect your choice to pay for supplements your insurance would cover.
I'm from the UK so have to pay through the nose in taxes for the NHS to be ripped off by the pharmaceutical companies.

I doubt very much anyone in the NHS negotiates a competitive price for Lovaza hence the need to remind people that it's probably better and more effective to buy your own from USA online discount providers. Even with the postage it works out cheaper than UK high street providers. But we have the same attitude here.
People say "Well I pay my taxes why shouldn't I get everything free on prescription whereever I can? Why should I care if the NHS is being ripped off?"

But the fact is that money is limited and services are cut to fit the budget available.
If you claim for stuff you don't really need then can't get treatment your do actually require whose fault is that?
Just because other people rip off the system is that any reason for you to do the same?

Lovaza 1 gram 120 capsule(s) Retail Price $233.99 Discount $179.99

Each 1-gram capsule of LOVAZA contains at least 900 mg of the ethyl esters of omega-3 fatty acids sourced from fish oils. These are predominantly a combination of ethyl esters of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA - approximately 465 mg) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA - approximately 375 mg).
OR
Now Foods, Ultra Omega-3, 500 EPA/250 DHA, 180 Softgels SRP: $39.99 Our price: $25.18 (15.77
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 07:27
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,178
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I think I probably pay less than a dollar or two a month for my vitamin D3 pills from biotech. I'm using the 50,000 iu ones so I only need to take 2-3 a month and I have a bottle of 90 or so of them. Looks like I'm set for several years!
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 10:33
MiniMoe's Avatar
MiniMoe MiniMoe is offline
New Member
Posts: 8
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 290/250/200 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
That makes sense. But do you have a copay? And if so, what is it in comparison to you purchasing it yourself?

Hello Zuleikaa! I have enjoyed some of your prolific writing in the archives on this forum and look forward to reading many more of them. Thank you for those! Perhaps you missed my earlier post on the first page of this thread, quoted below. The second paragraph of that quote explains that I would pay Amazon almost three times (with shipping) for an equivalent daily EPA+DHA from Carlson's finest fish oil (2.6 teaspoons), as I do for Lovaza from my insurance's mail-order pharmacy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMoe
...I pay a $22 copay (no sales tax, no shipping) for a 90 day supply of 360 capsules (three 120 capsule bottles) of Lovaza...

Were I not able to get the Lovaza so inexpensively, I'd choose the equivalent amount of Carlson's finest fish oil (two 500ml and one 200 ml bottle) at 2.6 teaspoons per day. I'd personally pay Amazon $55-60 for that (or Nordic Naturals) before I'd buy a product from an unknown manufacturer.
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  #26   ^
Old Mon, Oct-19-09, 13:17
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Posts: 16,564
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/350.4/160 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 7%
Location: Maryland, US
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No, I didn't see that. That makes sense.
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  #27   ^
Old Tue, Oct-20-09, 13:56
Hismouse's Avatar
Hismouse Hismouse is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,488
 
Plan: Meat, Veggies, Nuts
Stats: 181/185/130 Female 61.5
BF:Falling Fluff
Progress: -8%
Location: Oregon
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Ok here it is...

Vitamin D 25 hydroxy is 31
Vitamin D 3 hydroxy is 31
Vitamin D 2 hydroxy is < 4


What do I do.... how much should I take and whats the D2 mean?
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  #28   ^
Old Tue, Oct-20-09, 14:43
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hismouse
Ok here it is...

Vitamin D 25 hydroxy is 31
Vitamin D 3 hydroxy is 31
Vitamin D 2 hydroxy is < 4


What do I do.... how much should I take and whats the D2 mean?
the D2 is ergocalciferol.
The < means less than
4 is probably the lowest reliable amount the test identifies so as it's below the reliable indicator it's not worth counting. So it's not been added to the 25 Hydroxy total otherwise if it had been = 4 they would have added it and your 25(OH)D number would be 35.

So you are 31
You want to be 55
you need 55-31=24more
each 1,000iu/day should raise status 10ng Editted I typed too many zero's
so 2400iu/d should be sufficient BUT
people at lower levels raise status more on 1000iu than people who are moderate So maybe take a bit more to be sure.
Also think of the time of year and where you live and if UVB from sun reaches the ground when you are outdoors? the calculator will help you find out how long you need to be outside to make just 1000iu.

As it is likely that you will get no vitamin D from sun until next March it's probably better to assume all the 55ng/ml has to come from supplements (I'm assuming you don't visit a tanning studio twice weekly?)

So I would suggest 5000iu/daily and retest in Feb/March to see if you have found that sufficient. 31ng/ml is quite a good score for someone who has only had trivial supplements before maybe you've had a good summer holiday or plenty of time outdoors.

Ideally in Feb/March you will be nearer 60ng/ml and may then be able to think about just taking one 5000iu every other day or perhaps 4 x 5000iu every week. But if you still haven't got above 50ng/ml then you will need to increase the amount you take or continue as you are but be more aware of the need to get extra from sunshine and whenever possible expose as much skin as possible without ever getting sunburnt.

Last edited by Hutchinson : Wed, Oct-21-09 at 02:55.
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  #29   ^
Old Tue, Oct-20-09, 15:11
Hismouse's Avatar
Hismouse Hismouse is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,488
 
Plan: Meat, Veggies, Nuts
Stats: 181/185/130 Female 61.5
BF:Falling Fluff
Progress: -8%
Location: Oregon
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Yes I live in San Diego Ca, but its getting cool and I don't get in the sun much, should now I will work on that. I have had Fibromyalgia for many yrs, lots of pain, so I know this isn't helping my levels. Oh Since the 4000 D3 is in my Vitamin is it ok to get 2000 and that be safe and effective Plus sun?
I am sorry for the questions, this just confuses me,.
Also I take one Fish oil a day its, Omega 3 Fish Oil, 300 Active EPA/DHA, should I continue this or add more of it?

I have High BP
Mody 2 Diabetes
Psoriasis
Fibromyalgia
Valley Fever

Will increasing my D level help any of these? I know there mostly autoimmune, so just wondering?

Thank you from the botton of my heart for all the great info Debbie

Last edited by Hismouse : Tue, Oct-20-09 at 17:18.
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  #30   ^
Old Tue, Oct-20-09, 16:25
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 45,178
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Fish oil won't affect your vitamin D status. D3 might very well help with your autoimmune conditions.
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