It's possible that the increased fat is causing it but I've had problems with cream/whipping cream in the past so I think it is just something with cream that does me in. I have a similar problem with avocados and pistachio nuts. Coconut milk doesn't cause me heartburn so I'm using that - plus the one I buy has less protein than the cream we get here so that's a benefit also.

And yes, heartburn/indigestion would be the same thing.

I've actually read something like this before - I think it was when I was reading about coconut oil. Basic premise is that people have better success with sleep/relaxation if they consume the coconut oil earlier in the day because it can rev up your system. It possibly relates to all fats.

I'm sure this would come as somewhat of a surprise to Dr. Kwasniewski. There are entire chapters on obesity in both books, and nowhere does he say that some of the recipes shouldn't be used in this situation. In fact, he says that obese people need *less fat,* not less protein. This is because they already have their own stored fat available to be burned, so they don't need to include so much in their meals.

According to Homo Optimus, at the start of the diet, an obese person should eat 2-3 grams of fat per gram of protein. As always, calories shouldn't be counted. (I've read elsewhere that in his clinic, Dr. K put all his patients on a 3000 calorie diet, for the sake of convenience. This also matches the average calorie content of the suggested introductory menus.) Optimal Nutrition -- which was written a few years later, and is intended to be more of a detailed instruction manual -- says that once a person has started losing weight, they should lower their fat consumption to 1.5-2 grams fat per gram of protein. The faster the weight loss, the less fat they should be eating. If they start to stall, they should increase the fat content again.


Okay, I know you mentioned some sort of 40-year-old paper... but I'm having a hard time understanding why you think that people who need to lose weight should eat "plenty of veggies" and less animal protein.
Even if it were true that they need less protein overall (which doesn't fit with what the books say), it wouldn't make sense to swap animal protein for vegetable protein. A basic ON principle is that the less protein you're eating, the higher quality it should be. If the protein is from a bowl of vegetables, much of it will be unusable, since the amino acids won't be properly balanced. As a result, it will just get broken down.

This actually is one of the questions I have this morning. I started last Tuesday at 205 pounds. I know 5-6 pounds was not "real" fat since it's only come on in the past couple of weeks after TOM, a convention weekend and easter. Before I went up I had been at 198 for weeks.

According to the calculus victus my numbers are as follows:

shorter than one month I get 60-60 protein, 90-120 fat, and 30-48 carbs
under two month 48-60 protein, 144-203 fat, 34-48 carbs
under three months 42-54 protein, 138-197, 42-54 carbs

I've been being very careful to stay within ratios and trying to eat meats, cream, butter, Braunschweiger, etc but for carbs I tend to have veggies like broccoli, cauliflower, radishes, orange and yellow peppers and celery over potatoes. It's hard to break out of the Atkins mode of thinking for carbs. Mostly because I've felt so much better for years cutting out the potatoes, white breads, etc. I did enjoy unsweetened applesauce with pork loin the other night. I also usually have an ounce or two of almonds a day.

I use fitday to track the grams. Every day my proteins are dead on, 59-60 grams. My carbs are usually around 48 although I was lower yesterday at 39. I just wasn't hungry for more and I was within ratios. My fats usually have been 120, but yesterday at 117 grams.

Here's my question. Is there an induction period where the weight comes off faster for a couple weeks or am I losing too quickly? How much can you safely lose a week in general? I'm a 46 year old female. Usually weight crawls off me. Did my initial 5-6 pounds come flying off because it was water weight and now I'm losing normally? Because I'm down two more pounds this morning (196). While that's thrilling and it's been over 20 years since I've been below 200, it's freaking me out just a little.

This is my progress:
tues 4/14: 3 pounds
wed 4/15: 2 pounds
thurs 4/16: 0 pounds
fri 4/17: 2 pounds
sat 4/18: 0 pounds
sun 4/19: 2 pounds

Total: 9 pounds

He doesn't have to. Since protein limits are based on IDEAL weight, protein limits for the average woman (who isn't 6 ft tall) are very small. If you're limited to 52g protein a day, eating a slice of egg white nut 'bread' that weighs in at nearly 20% of your protein for the day is ... well .. nuts.


All due respect, please do not put words in my mouth. I never said what you just wrote. What I actually said, in response to someone who said they love veggies and don't want to give them up, is that by cutting out a slice of protein-laden 'bread', there would be more protein grams available to her via veggies. And that's her choice.


As I said in my last post, and I hope you will truly hear me, many of us simply wish to use the ratios to eat the way we prefer. If you then claim that we are not following the OD, that's fine by me. Call it what we're doing whatever you like. I understand that you follow the book. That's great - for you. But there is absolutely NO NEED for any of us to do the same if we don't want to. Does this mean we're not following Dr. K precisely? Yes. Does it matter? No. We can choose to eat the foods we like instead. We can choose not to eat foods Dr. K may approved of when he wrote his books. And we can still lose weight AND be healthy.

Lisa

LOL - what a great way to freak out!

You're doing fine. I don't know if there's an official 'induction' period, but it makes sense that when we completely switch our eating plans our bodies react in different ways. I do know that people who have a lot of weight to lose on any plan lose it faster in the beginning than people who have a much smaller amount to lose.

But I also share your sense of disbelief. My scale showed another .4 pound loss last night and showed the same this morning, so I know it's real. But I'd already lost half a pound earlier in the week, so I was stunned. Especially because I've been very hungry all week and eating to my upper fat limit (and sometimes beyond) every day, which means mega-calories. I'd say keep on doing exactly as you are - doesn't it feel good?

Lisa

/jealous

I'm still gaining.

This is very interesting to me.

IF the ratios are the reason that Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet works.... then why aren't there millions & millions of thin healthy people who followed Barry Groves EAT FAT diet, which I keep reading in these threads has the same ratios as the H.O.D.

It seems utterly unbelievable that the medical establishment hasn't discovered that HIGH FAT with low protein & low carb - or even HIGH FAT with low protein & fructose free would result in massive weight loss.

Haven't Barry Groves' books been available for a long time? If they contained Magic Ratios, wouldn't there be numerous forums devoted to success stories?

For those interested, I started a thread about the technicalities of how we become overweight.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=394699

Patrick

Wow. This is some amazing information.

Wait..what? Why is that surprising? Doesn't the medical establishment still promote low-cal, "healthy fat," high-carb diets, for the most part? Even for diabetics?? Even the Atkins diet is still maligned, even though it obviously works for massive weight loss.

I had never heard of Barry Groves before I started reading this forum. Maybe he just never had the publicity level of Atkins or Agatston, even if his plan does work.

lil' annie, I thought that Groves was more like 60% fat? Kwasniewski is typically more in the 75-80% range.

I agree that they're otherwise very similar. But Groves has had minimal success with T1 diabetics, whereas Kwasniewski claims the majority of his patients have eventually been able to go off insulin. If true, this is really amazing.

Well I'm not surprised anymore, but still angry at the mainstream I guess. What truly pisses me off, is that they don't recommend diabetics to cut on carbs. With what scientists now know, it's nearly criminal to tell diabetics that they can eat high-carbs!

Patrick

This was sort of the impression I had. Not that I'm an expert of course, . But I did get the strong impression from the different websites I've been to that talk about Dr. K's diet that he feels protein should come primarily from animal sources as much as possible.

You didn't just suggest cutting out bread; you said "cut down on all the proteins" (eggs, bacon, liverwurst, sausage, cheese). I know you're happy with your results on this modified approach, but that doesn't mean it would work for everyone. As with any plan, some people can be more flexible, while others have to be more careful.

If you're choosing to change the diet for yourself, fine, no problem. If you're giving this kind of advice to someone else -- in a thread titled "Dr. Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet" -- I think it's only responsible to make it clear that minimizing animal protein and increasing vegetable protein goes against the basic principles of the Optimal Diet, and that (unless you've found evidence to the contrary) it's never been clinically tested. There are real reasons why it might not work, since the two protein sources aren't interchangeable from your body's perspective.

I really don't want to keep up this discussion, so that's it for me. I just hope you can find a way to share information about what's working for you, without confusing those who'd like to give Kwasniewski's ON a good solid trial.