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  #31   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 12:31
mickieb's Avatar
mickieb mickieb is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 36
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 139/128.2/115 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 45%
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Hi Demokat:

I feel fine eating any of these oils, but Im just trying to get used to (psychologically) eating things like butter again. We keep hearing about cholesterol and saturated fat etc etc, that it is driven in my mind. I have to convince myself that its ok to eat this again. I just started to eat the whole egg. For as long as I can remember, I always pop out the yolk into the garbage. Mostly to get rid of the cholesterol, but also the taste. However, as a scrambled egg, I dont taste the yolk.

I see you have been a long time low carber. Do you ever miss carbs, such as the refined stuff?
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  #32   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 13:59
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickieb
You think that its ok to eat not much fat in general? When I do eat fat, such as cooking or added to my cooked foods, its usually something along the lines of the "good" fats...olive oil etc. Or if its already in the meat naturally. But again, I dont eat beef much, but stick to turkey, fish, eggs, and chicken. I still cant get myself to eat butter, not gobs of it anyway. I'll have maybe a little bit like to just fry an egg. Do you think eating the bad and good fats has something to do with weight loss or anything else vital?


The hypothesis that I'm working with is that the only bad fats are trans-fats and omega-6 fats. You can read why in books like GCBC and "Nourishing Traditions." Loren Cordain has a slightly different take in "The Paleo Diet" but there's a big overlap. So I'll take anything saturated, mono-unsaturated, or omega-3, with a preference for animal fats.

Whether it's ok to eat "not much fat" depends mostly on you. Are you hungry? If so, you probably need more fat. Protein and carbs, without sufficient fat, will cause the pancreas to secrete insulin, and that will lead to increased hunger sooner or later.

There's a wide range of how much is "enough fat," though, and it depends on the individual and on the plan. Here's a comparison of a few different plans:

A pre-Pyramid-style "square meal:"

1 chicken thigh, skin on
1 baked potato
1 cup broccoli
1 pat butter spread between the broccoli and potato

41% fat 40% carbs 18% protein (by calories)
This seems a bit low-fat to me, since there's not enough butter and no sour cream on the potato, but I think 40% was a typical fat intake for that time period.

An Atkins-y meal:

3 chicken thighs
1/2 cup broccoli with 1 pat butter
Sauce made with 1 pat butter and 1/4 cup heavy cream

70% fat, 4% carbs, 27% protein

A meal using ratios from Dr. Kwasniewski's "Optimal" plan - high fat, low protein:

1 chicken thigh
Sauce made with 2 pats butter and 1/4 cup heavy cream
1/4 cup broccoli with 1 pat butter
1/4 potato, mashed with 1 pat butter and 1/4 cup sour cream

77% fat 10% carbs 13% protein
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  #33   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 14:00
Demokat's Avatar
Demokat Demokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,301
 
Plan: Paleo/Organic Fat Flush
Stats: 193/176/145 Female 5'4.5"
BF:42/31/24
Progress: 35%
Location: Boston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickieb
I see you have been a long time low carber. Do you ever miss carbs, such as the refined stuff?


Hi Mickie,

I only miss carbs when I allow myself little cheats or when I don't eat enough fat. I actually had been on and off the wagon for the past 5 months due to stress and other stuff that was going on in my life. My culprits are good chocolate, good ice cream, and the occasional rich pastry. I was never a craver of junky carbs. My problem is access to really good gourmet shops and bakeries.

I am celiac so eating wheat makes me bloat and gain weight. My problem is, once I start, my body craves it. I'd been eating cookies and cakes since January and progressively feeling more ill. I'd fall on and off the wagon despite body aches and digestive issues. I'm now back on the wagon, trying to ween myself off coffee and my habit of a daily square of dark chocolate.

The secret to sticking with it-for me anyway-is to make sure that I get enough fat. Fat makes me feel full so I don't overeat. So don't be afraid of fat! By throwing away the yolk of an egg, you're throwing away the Omega 3s and nutrients!

--Kathy
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  #34   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 14:25
Demokat's Avatar
Demokat Demokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,301
 
Plan: Paleo/Organic Fat Flush
Stats: 193/176/145 Female 5'4.5"
BF:42/31/24
Progress: 35%
Location: Boston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
Whether it's ok to eat "not much fat" depends mostly on you. Are you hungry? If so, you probably need more fat. Protein and carbs, without sufficient fat, will cause the pancreas to secrete insulin, and that will lead to increased hunger sooner or later.


Capmikee, I've been trying to get more fat in my diet. When I lost a lot of weight the first time, my fat % was greater than 70%. I don't know if I could ever add potatoes to my diet, though I LOVE good French Fries. I think I'm extremely carb sensitive.

BTW I always find your posts informative and helpful. You are a true asset to the LC community.
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  #35   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 15:45
mickieb's Avatar
mickieb mickieb is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 36
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 139/128.2/115 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Default

Demokat, it seems we are alike in many ways! I used to love the same carb foods as you, but on the LC diet, I dont crave them much, only like this weekend, I made chocolate cookies, and the smell is so overwhelmingly good! But I resisted and didnt have any!

It seems also that we cant eat any carb-ful foods or we crave more! I havent eaten anything that is mostly carby, such as a potato. I'd be stuffing my face if I ate french fries!! As for the fats, I am trying hard to get used to the idea of eating more of the good fats. So tomorrow, I will need to sneak it in. Oh, I am not throwing away the yolks now. I just need to disguise its taste, like with mayo.

We can only keep trying and get more info as we go. This forum is good for that!
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  #36   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 15:48
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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Aw, thanks!

I was using the potatoes as an example. I haven't had them myself since I started Atkins about 3 years ago.

Mickie, you're makin' me cry with your tales of throwing out egg yolks! I do the opposite now - I eat the yolks and save the whites to feed back to my chickens (cooked).

Have you ever tried pastured eggs? I don't mean the "cage-free" warehouse eggs you get at Whole Foods or Trader Joe's, I mean eggs from chickens that run around in the grass eating grubs and worms. Sometimes the yolks are an intense shade of orange, there's so many carotenes in them.

I don't like the flavor of those pale washed-out yolks anymore, but mostly they're just a bit bland. So it's possible pastured eggs would just be a more intense version of the flavor you don't like. But they're worth a try. Sometimes Whole Foods does have them (look for "pastured" or "grass-fed" on the label - "free range" does not cut it), but if you have access to a farmer's market, that's usually a good place to find them.

It turns out that dietary cholesterol does not raise serum cholesterol at all in the long term. It causes a brief rise after you eat it, but your body is constantly making cholesterol and what you eat has very little direct effect on it.

Some encouraging words on saturated fat: Many saturated fats are powerful antimicrobial agents that boost your immune system. Saturated fat raises your HDL. If I remember correctly, it also raises your LDL, but the limited research that has been done suggests that it might only raise the "good" LDL. The "cholesterol lowering diet" studies, which lowered saturated fat intake without altering total fat intake did not reduce the risk of heart disease. In fact, lowering cholesterol in these studies increased the risk of death by cancer and trauma!

Last edited by capmikee : Sun, May-17-09 at 17:00.
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  #37   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 15:53
mickieb's Avatar
mickieb mickieb is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 36
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 139/128.2/115 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Default

Capmikee: Thanks alot of posting all of that info and examples. One of my problems is that I cant eat all that meat in one sitting. I eat one chicken leg and thats it for me. It feels really heavy in my stomach.

I'll have to try to get the heavy cream going. Get those fats in there. Maybe oneof my mistakes is that Im trying to go low everything. I just want to be sure I dont get too many calories while Im eating protein and fats. I know these have alot of calories too. Atkins does say that we have to watch the calories as well.

So when I eat my chicken leg, I should eat all the skin too? Even that glob of fat that I usually throw out?
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  #38   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 16:04
mickieb's Avatar
mickieb mickieb is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 36
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 139/128.2/115 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Default

Capmikee: Ive read that these fats help in the long run with the cholesterol and LDL, HDL, and triglycerides, but the problem is that I have to get that into my brain so I believe it! We have been trained to believe just the opposite for so long, that its almost ingrained. You've been on this for years, so theres no thinking for you. I need to time to adjust to these "old" concepts.

I have no idea what my eggs are! I thought they were at least the free range type, but it only really says that they are grain fed, no hormones or antibiotics etc. Things are so complicated now. Cant just have one type of egg. I'll have to check out whole foods again. Just that its far from me, well not really far, but with traffic is seems far. But I guess if I want quality, I have to work for it.

Hey, thanks for the info.
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  #39   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 16:58
Demokat's Avatar
Demokat Demokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,301
 
Plan: Paleo/Organic Fat Flush
Stats: 193/176/145 Female 5'4.5"
BF:42/31/24
Progress: 35%
Location: Boston
Default

Capmikee is right about truly cage-free eggs. I know there are farmers markets in NYC where you can get them from farms in NJ or upstate. You will not believe the difference! I was also crying when you said you were throwing away the yolks. I was thinking I could make a nice low-carb dark chocolate mousse with heavy cream.

Sat fat raises your HDL or 'good', protective cholesterol.
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  #40   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 17:13
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickieb
I eat one chicken leg and thats it for me. It feels really heavy in my stomach.

If you're satisfied, then maybe that's all you need. But if you get hungry again soon afterwards, maybe it's too much protein and not enough fat.

Eating the skin is a good way to get some fat. If it's mushy and globby, maybe you need to cook it until it's more crispy. I'm not sure if you're referring to globby skin or to the cartilage on the end. The cartilage doesn't really have any fat, but if you want to eat it, it's good for your joints.

If you don't like the skin, you can always use a rich sauce instead.

Quote:
Maybe one of my mistakes is that Im trying to go low everything. I just want to be sure I dont get too many calories while Im eating protein and fats. I know these have alot of calories too. Atkins does say that we have to watch the calories as well.


I seriously don't recall Atkins ever saying you need to watch calories. There is a "fat fast" technique used for breaking a stall, but that's a diet he adapted from someone else's study. I think the "fat fast" is the only part of the book where you have to count calories.

Atkins does say you should never let yourself get hungry, so in that sense you need to watch that you're getting ENOUGH calories. He also says to stop eating when you're full - in that sense he says you shouldn't overeat, but not in the sense of counting calories.
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  #41   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 20:07
mickieb's Avatar
mickieb mickieb is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 36
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 139/128.2/115 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Default

The chicken with the skin is FAT that Im talking about! I dont think I can make myself put that glob in my mouth!!! So maybe I'll have to cook it longer.

Atkins may not have specifically said to limit the calories, but he said "Its not a license to gorge"...which means to me that I should watch my calories. He did get into what he thought the average male and female would end up ingesting in calories.

This is what I eat during the weekdays. Let me know what you think:

M-F
breakfast

decaf coffee with 1/2 and 1/2 and one Truvia sweetner
3 eggs with cheese omelette

lunch
can of tuna with mayo or salad with grilled chicken breast
cheese stick
decaf same as above
banana (Im starting this week with this)

snack
1/4 cup raw almonds

dinner
mixed low carb veggies with broiled flounder fillets
avocado

snack
decaf
1 Atkins Endulge bar

1 vitamins/minerals supplement
calcium 2 times per day
Omega-3 2 times per day

64+ oz water throughout the day
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  #42   ^
Old Sun, May-17-09, 20:35
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
Default

That looks a little bit light, but let your hunger be your guide. I remember reading that thing about "it's not a license to gorge," but it sounds like you and I are people who take that a little harder than it was meant. It's not a license to go hungry either, so don't overcompensate!

I think your appetite will sort itself out in the long term. If you end up eating a little more than you needed now, you'll naturally correct for it later. What I didn't understand when I started is that I was REALLY HUNGRY ALL THE TIME. It's not gorging if you're still hungry! It took a long time for that hunger to fade, but it did eventually. Eat the right foods and your appetite will take care of the rest.

I'd recommend staying way from bars & shakes. Atkins Nutritionals doesn't have very much to do with the principles in Dr. Atkins' books. You'd be better off snacking on macadamia nuts, hard-boiled eggs, olives, avocado or dry sausage.

I forgot to mention earlier - you said that your fasting period was only 6 hours. Don't forget to count your sleep as fasting time! Most people fast for 12-15 hours naturally, before break-fast. One easy way to start IF is just to have breakfast later. It's fine to have 2 or 3 separate meals during your eating window, if you have time for it.
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  #43   ^
Old Mon, May-18-09, 10:18
dutchboy dutchboy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 107
 
Plan: high protein
Stats: 172/159/154 Male 178 cm
BF:18%/13%/10%
Progress: 72%
Location: Netherlands
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Running under and over 20 miles has everything to do with running on glucose. The capacity of your muscles to use fat depends on the number of mitochondria. The number of mitochondria can grow when you exercise in ketosis.

People that have always done a high carb diet don't have enough mitochondria (glucose burning doesn't require them). So when you have depleted your glycogen stores after 20 miles, you crash.

But when you have invested in a bigger capacity to burn fat (by increasing your mitochondria) you get all your energy needs - even when running - from fat. And human potential for creating fat reserves are - as we can see around us - unlimited.
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  #44   ^
Old Mon, May-18-09, 11:42
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
Default

Thanks, dutchboy. That makes sense - why isn't this information more widely known? I thought the number of your mitochondria was fixed.
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  #45   ^
Old Mon, May-18-09, 16:22
mickieb's Avatar
mickieb mickieb is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 36
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 139/128.2/115 Female 5'2"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Default

capmikee: Let me get the full swing of this LC diet first. Im on my 5th week and on the OWL now, hence the fruits and nuts. I'll try the IF after Im all done losing my weight and feel comfortable that I can do this without feeling that urge to eat, not bc Im hungry, but bc I feel I have to. I know its all a mental thing, but I have to get that into my brain, that has been otherwise trained.

I stayed on my food list and havent been hungry yet. I also took two 20-30 min brisk walks, went on my Spin bike and did my resistance exercises and all is well. So let me see if this plan will help me to keep losing the weight I want to, but more slowly now.

And those pastured eggs are mighty expensive!!
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