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  #31   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 11:15
Korban's Avatar
Korban Korban is offline
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Plan: Berstein's
Stats: 220/189/155 Male 68"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowcarbUgh
My personal, pull it out of my a$$, theory is that insulin resistance is probably a positive adaptive mechanism that promotes fat storage that has run amuck in a carb-rich environment.
"Thrifty genes" gone awry.

/smile
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  #32   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 11:19
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
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Taubes poked a lot of holes in the "thrifty gene" hypothesis. Pg 242-245 is a good start.

The other explanation (pg 359) is that fat cells become overly sensitive to insulin.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Mon, Jun-30-08 at 11:31.
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  #33   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 11:19
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lowcarbUgh lowcarbUgh is offline
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Plan: South Beach
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My logic says if thrifty genes have not gone away, then the maladaptive type 2 diabetes, which is largely hereditary, would be rare.

If I recall correctly, Taubes did not discuss the thrifty gene in the context of type 2 diabetes.
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  #34   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 11:32
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
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He sure does, 242 to basically the end of the chapter.
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  #35   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 11:49
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lowcarbUgh lowcarbUgh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
He sure does, 242 to basically the end of the chapter.


I'll re-read it then. But I'm not sure I'm going to agree with him.

Quote:
The other explanation (pg 359) is that fat cells become overly sensitive to insulin.


There has to be a reason *why* fat cells become overly sensitive to insulin.

After reading this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=j2...I7iDoLIsQPT9Yw3

it is difficult to believe anything is not genetic to some degree.

Last edited by lowcarbUgh : Mon, Jun-30-08 at 11:54.
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  #36   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 12:03
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
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Oh, everything is genetic at some level. I mean, the basic instructions to build a human being are genes that are only turned on when an egg gets fertilized with a spermie. But genes do different things based on what happens in the environment. IMHO saying that type 2 diabetes is genetic is like saying bleeding when you cut yourself opening an avocado is genetic. Of course, we're built to bleed, we're built to only be able to handle a certain amount of carbs over the course of a lifespan. There may be varying degrees from individual to individual, but fundamentally this is how we are constructed, from DNA naturally.

What would be interesting is looking at those people who don't get diabetes or insulin resistance when eating lots of sugars and starches. Just like that article I posted about how they started to look at mice that are immune to getting cancer instead of looking at the mice that *get* cancer, and guess what? They found out if they inject those immune mouse white blood cells into mice with cancer, they get cured.
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  #37   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 12:54
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lowcarbUgh lowcarbUgh is offline
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Plan: South Beach
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There are too many cases of hereditary diabetes like Carolyn reported to discount them, In fact, they've identified a type 2 gene in certain groups of whites, but not blacks.

In one study of identical twins, if one twin has type 2 diabetes, the other will also at a rate of 95%. In type 1 diabetes in twins, it is 50%.

Last edited by lowcarbUgh : Mon, Jun-30-08 at 12:59.
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  #38   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 13:16
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Well yeah, there are going to be genetic variations that predispose some people to getting it sooner or worse than others but when you end up with 30% of the population having diabetes or pre-diabetes, which sounds like we're about there now, then we're back to the "bleeding when cut" thing again. Just like if you cut two people, one is probably going to bleed more, one will heal faster. Why? Well, genes and environment -- actually the environment's affect on genes really. But trying to assign normal human responses to a gene is a waste of time, IMHO. More interesting to find the cases that are exceptions.

Actually, the 30% is probably way conservative judging from how extreme you have to be to even get noticed by doctors as having a blood sugar disorder.
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  #39   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 13:23
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lowcarbUgh lowcarbUgh is offline
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Plan: South Beach
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Okay, I'll posit that the exceptions are self-limiting eaters.
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  #40   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 15:31
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowcarbUgh
Okay, I'll posit that the exceptions are self-limiting eaters.

Not necessarily. Like I said in my last post, there's always exceptions. Like the mice bred to get cancer, there's an exception that was unable to get cancer. There are probably mice in that group that got cancer even faster than the average too. But they're the genetic oddities.

I'm suggesting that ending up somewhere along the type 2 continuum is a pretty normal result after a few decades of eating the crap people are eating these days. The outliers are the ones that are immune or that get there far earlier than most other people do.

Possible explanations for why indigenous populations seem to get hit harder, that people like to attribute to the hypothesis of the Thrifty Gene -- which even the inventor of that term decided it was bogus -- is that those populations are generally extremely poor when they go from being Hunter Gatherers to gathering in super markets. They can only afford the worst and cheapest food around which is generally sugar and starch based. They're not getting a lot of meat and vegetables. When we send food aid to poor countries we're sending them rice, corn, wheat and so on and expecting them to be healthy and thrive on it when even WE don't.

And there's no real Thrifty Gene found in animals either. When you feed them the proper diet (lets not even discuss pets fed commercial pet foods please), even too much of it, their bodies seem to deal with the excess calories by burning them off in futile cycles.

As Taubes says over and over, there's a homeostasis that is supposed to be at work that *should* be working very hard to keep us at one weight, as it does in every other animal out there. But it breaks and then works really hard to keep us from losing weight. That it is breaking in many (most?) of us at this point in history, all over the modern world, isn't just a sudden spread of faulty genes.
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  #41   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 17:13
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Korban Korban is offline
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Plan: Berstein's
Stats: 220/189/155 Male 68"
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Location: S. Carolina US
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Well , I am back and have to offer another OPinion... Is it really relevant whether "thrifty genes" are real, much less operative in diabetes (or obesity) or not...? seems to me it is just a model (even less it is just a nomenclature) used for describing an abnormality that cannot be explained except to use the term. It might be of value to the anthropologist but for me - I will still take my 11 units of Lantus tonight, eat my low carb dinner and move on.

/smile

P.S. Sorry I mentioned the term "thrifty genes"... it was kinda in jest...

Last edited by Korban : Mon, Jun-30-08 at 17:24.
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  #42   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 17:28
lowcarbUgh's Avatar
lowcarbUgh lowcarbUgh is offline
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Plan: South Beach
Stats: 170/132/135 Female 5'10
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Flip-flop, FL
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I don't believe there is a thrifty gene on some chromosome, but we are genetically programmed to store fat or we wouldn't store fat. It is expressed in some people more so than others. Insulin resistance aids in storing fat. I think it is that simple.

Don't worry about the nomenclature, Korban. Debating with Nancy is fun.
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  #43   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 17:29
Korban's Avatar
Korban Korban is offline
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Posts: 423
 
Plan: Berstein's
Stats: 220/189/155 Male 68"
BF:
Progress: 48%
Location: S. Carolina US
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How simple is that?

/smile
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  #44   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 17:34
Korban's Avatar
Korban Korban is offline
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Posts: 423
 
Plan: Berstein's
Stats: 220/189/155 Male 68"
BF:
Progress: 48%
Location: S. Carolina US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowcarbUgh
Don't worry about the nomenclature, Korban. Debating with Nancy is fun.
Well, as I have said before, I don't believe too much from posters that have less than 20,000 posts...

/smile

P.S. hey, I have three steaks now...!!! I think I getting close to being an oober poster now...

Last edited by Korban : Mon, Jun-30-08 at 17:39.
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  #45   ^
Old Mon, Jun-30-08, 17:45
Korban's Avatar
Korban Korban is offline
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Posts: 423
 
Plan: Berstein's
Stats: 220/189/155 Male 68"
BF:
Progress: 48%
Location: S. Carolina US
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I guess we have Nancy too scairt to defend herself... Hah we did good... or she isn't on atm.................................

/smile
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