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  #46   ^
Old Fri, Apr-04-08, 21:39
KarenJ's Avatar
KarenJ KarenJ is offline
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Posts: 1,564
 
Plan: tasty animals with butter
Stats: 170/115/110 Female 60"
BF:maintaining
Progress: 92%
Location: Northeastern Illinois
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Plane, I'm so sorry. I've always loved your Julia Child quote, and all your posts. I hope you can put that cancer sucker into recession right quick! Praying for you...

What about a smoothie made of ground grass fed beef, butter, and sea salt? Maybe a tad extra beef fat? Suck it up through a straw, or spoon it in. Same with wild caught Salmon and a nice spicy rub, couple that with coconut or palm oil. Add a rich bone broth to get the right consistency. A rich bone broth is good on it's own, especially in light of any treatments (chemo).

Obviously, there is no need to reiterate a low carb woe. I wish you the best. I'm a big fan of surgery coupled with low carb. Worked for so many of Wolfgang Lutz's patients! Keep hoping and best of health to you!
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  #47   ^
Old Sat, Apr-05-08, 02:06
SandyDown's Avatar
SandyDown SandyDown is offline
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Posts: 3,644
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 154/155/140 Female 5'5
BF:
Progress: -7%
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Zilla - I remember on the other forum there was that recipe for home made eggnog, which had a huge amount of fat gms ...
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  #48   ^
Old Sat, Apr-05-08, 02:47
LC FP LC FP is offline
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Posts: 1,162
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 228/195/188 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: Erie PA
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Plane -- I don't know if this helps at all, but in general most cancers are not real rapid growing and for many it takes 10 years to grow to a one centimeter wide mass. If you've been doing LC for only 6 months, this thing in your tonsil was probably present a lot longer than that.
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  #49   ^
Old Sat, Apr-05-08, 08:01
Wifezilla's Avatar
Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Posts: 4,367
 
Plan: I'm a Barry Girl
Stats: 250/208/190 Female 72
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Colorado
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Oh yeah...I may have to post that on Plane's recipe request thread.

P.S> Sandy - clean out your mailbox
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  #50   ^
Old Sat, Apr-05-08, 09:34
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
Interesting idea. If it comes to that, I'll talk to my oncologist. Let's hope that the surgery is enough!

Plane

My friend with the tonsil cancer only had surgery I believe. I don't think she had chemo or radiation. She's doing ok, just scared silly still. Who wouldn't be?

Stock up on coconut milk. I gotta believe those MCT's might be a good thing for you.
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  #51   ^
Old Sun, Apr-06-08, 11:14
Squid's Avatar
Squid Squid is offline
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Posts: 479
 
Plan: general LC
Stats: 195/142/148 Female 65
BF:
Progress: 113%
Default Cancer patients

This will get me a lot of backlash, no doubt, but I feel I have to say it for any cancer patients
who come along down the road and read posts here about low carb being good for cancer. I'm zipping up my kevlar suit.

First, let me say that I AM experimenting on myself with a low carb AND calorically restricted diet to hopefully keep my breast cancer from recurring.

BUT please understand that at this stage with the knowledgde we have, that you ARE EXPERIMENTING with yourself and you COULD BE MAKING YOUR CANCER WORSE by going low carb. I just want desperate cancer patients to make an informed decision before following the "low carb will cure cancer" mantra. Maybe, maybe not.

Here's some facts that have been a bit skewed in the press.

There is epidemiological evidence that low carb diets may help prevent SOME cancers. There has been at least one statistical analysis showing this in breast, prostate and esophogeal cancers. On the contrary, a low fat diet was shown to reduce risk of ovarian cancer. But the thing to understand
here is that this shows a correlation and it's not a cause. So you can't read these studies and say that a high carb diet causes cancer. That is simply not what they're saying.

A tumor has different stages. Initiation is when the tumor begins to grow. Promotion is when you already have cancer. It's tempting to think that what works to prevent initiaion will work
to stop promotion (i.e., cure cancer), but that's not necessarily the case. Here's one study that actually found
something that worked for preventing breast cancer actually increased its growth. There's others out
there. http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cg...t/18/8/1679.pdf

One of the biggest promoters of study of a ketogenic diet for cancer is Thomas Seyfried at Boston College. He has some really interesting ideas and research going on. However, he has found that is it necessary to combine a ketogenic diet with a calorie restricted diet to have a benefit. He took 4 groups of mice with a nasty brain tumor. 1 was fed an unrestricted diet, 2 was fed an unrestricted ketogenic diet (similar to Atkins), 3 was fed a low calorie diet, 4 was fed a ketogenic low calorie diet. Only groups 3 and 4 had a benefit for their tumors and there was not a difference between the two. So it was the calorie restriction and not the low carb diet that showed the benefit. And the benefit was not a cure - the tumors simply grew a little more slowly. Promising, but not conclusive. And it contradicts studies like the one above that showed that calorie restriction promoted at least one kind of cancer. It also worked on a type of tumor that has very high glucose uptake - who's to say it is at all relevant to other tumors that don't?
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.o...full/10/16/5622 (It's interesting to note that Seyfried was very clear the results he got in his study were from a calorie restricted diet, but the press very often reported it wrongly as a ketogenic or low carb diet had the benefit. Not true.)

The German experiment with feeding end-stage cancer patients a high fat no carb diet has been reported by the press (see Time magazine http://www.time.com/time/health/art...1662484,00.html)
but it has not yet been published or peer reviewed. It does show some
promise, but here's a few facts. Only 5 patients were able to stick to the regimen. Their tumors did slow down, stop growing or shrink. 2 patients had their tumors continue to grow. Several other patients dropped out of the study because they couldn't tolerate it. So it's a really small, basically
anecdotal study at this point that worked for some but not other patients. And it was only for tumors that showed a lot of glucose uptake. So
you can't just assume that this would work for your tumor.

Not all tumors show high glucose uptake. So why would low carb work for these tumors? The one type of tumor where there may really be a benefit is a glioma (nasty brain tumor). There MAY be some benefit for prostate, breast, and pancreatic cancer. There very likely is not a benefit for other types of tumors that don't show high glucose uptake. There may even be harm. Do you want to guess if your particular kind of tumor is "glucose hungry"?

Eating sugar and carbs is not the body's only source of glucose. The liver and kidneys are very good at producing glucose, especially when there is a surplus of energy. So, this means that you can eat no
carbs, but too much fat and/or protein and still have too much glucose in your body. Atkins claim of "eat all you want" does NOT apply to cancer patients who are going low carb. Go back and look at Seyfried's work and you'll see that the mice on unrestricted ketogenic diets did NOT have a drop
in blood glucose. (Maybe why some here have trouble losing weight until they cut calories?) The mice on restricted diets (high or low carb) did show a decrease in blood sugar and even more importantly, the insulin-like growth factor and other markers for cancer.

A study that comes out and says XYZ helps cancer may have a couple of problems. First, you can very often find that there's another study showing XYZ makes cancer worse. Second, the amount of benefit may be very small. Third, it can be very difficult to really know if it was XYZ that helped the cancer. Was it the low carb or the low calorie or the combination of both that helped?

Much of the research has been in mice and rats. It may or may not translate to humans. Sometimes mice studies do and sometimes they don't.

There is not a conspiracy among doctors to keep good information from us. Oncologists who do not recommend a low carb diet are not doing anything wrong. There isn't evidence that it works. There isn't evidence that it's at least not harmful for cancer patients, although we may be starting to see that now in SOME cases. All the drugs they have to work with have been studied in the context of a normal carb diet, and we don't know how they'll
work on a low carb diet. The diet may even make them ineffective or harmful. So it is actually responsible in my mind for an oncologist to not recommend something where there isn't strong non-contradictory evidence. Sorry folks, but the evidence for low carb is still conflicting at this stage. (Anyone remember how low fat got started? By doctors recommending something for
which there was little evidence. Maybe they've learned their lesson and won't do that again.)


My advice to cancer patients is to do your own research, but not from what you read on most internent sites. Look at that skeptically because it's often misreported. One example, the Livin la vida low carb web site stated that a ketogenic diet helped reduce tumors. The author of the paper (Seyfried) actually emailed Jimmy to point out that wasn't what his study found.
But Jimmy's article has been picked up and reposted around the web with the error in it.

Cancer is not a single disease. It's many diseases and each cancer is different. That's why when you're sitting in the chemo room, everyone up and down the row is on different drugs. One treatment does not fit all. How likely is it that low carb will fit all?

Just please understand that you ARE experimenting on yourself if you go low carb at this time. I am doing that, (after I finished my conventional treatment of surgery and chemo) but believe me I sweat every time I read a study that indicates I may be doing myself more harm than good. Low carb appears to be a good approach to PREVENT many cancers. But we just don't know
if it helps or hurts when you already have cancer. There's evidence in both directions.

Cancer patients, enjoy your life, go for a walk and enjoy God's beautiful world, enjoy the time you have with your family, donate to cancer research.
Use low carb to prevent cancer but think twice before using it to treat cancer. Have a good discussion with your oncologist first.
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  #52   ^
Old Sun, Apr-06-08, 11:39
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Squid, I wish you the best of all possible out-comes!
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  #53   ^
Old Sun, Apr-06-08, 12:50
Bandito's Avatar
Bandito Bandito is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 533
 
Plan: Generic LC
Stats: 212/157/135 Female 5'7
BF:
Progress: 71%
Location: Oregon
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I can see that you have thought this out. We all have to find our own paths and I am glad that you have found yours. Thank you very much for your responsible, honest, objective, and deeply personal post. Best of health to you on your journey.
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  #54   ^
Old Sun, Apr-06-08, 13:16
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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In the same vien as the above, I'd like people to consider the Vitamin D council's article on Does vitamin D treat cancer? If we think a paleo type diet may be best suited to dealing with cancer it may also be the case that the vitamin D status that paleo man/woman enjoyed also is best for the human body to enable it best to fight infection/cancer?
There isn't hard evidence saying for sure it will.
~But there is a lot of evidence suggesting it may be.
Listen to Feldman here
Effective strength D3 capsules are cheap enough. I don't (to my knowledge) have cancer but a totally different inflammatory condition. I keep my 25(OH)D at or around 60ng/ml 150nmol/l simply to allow my body to best fight inflammation. It seems to me obvious that if you want your body to be best able to fight anything, cancer, infection, fungus, virus it needs the means to do so, and not just sufficient, it needs sufficient stores, reserves and supply to be sure it always has sufficient reserves to draw on.

The levels most people have are below that naturally sustained given adequate sun exposure. In the UK currently most adults have only a third of that naturally acquired and less than half the amount required for optimal absorbtion of calcium/magnesium from the diet. If we know that most people aren't able to take up optimal amounts of calcim and magnesium because they are vitamin d insufficient is it any wonder they get ill?
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  #55   ^
Old Mon, Apr-07-08, 07:45
Wifezilla's Avatar
Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Posts: 4,367
 
Plan: I'm a Barry Girl
Stats: 250/208/190 Female 72
BF:
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Location: Colorado
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I am still waiting for the hard evidence that sugar and corn syrup are GOOD for cancer patients...since these are ingredients in ENSURE...a product often doctor recommened to cancer patients.

Remember, Doctors are experimenting on you too. Do your research. There are links on my blog to several studies that show carbs feed cancer cells. (Look on the right column....posts by topic)
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  #56   ^
Old Mon, Apr-07-08, 20:15
Squid's Avatar
Squid Squid is offline
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Posts: 479
 
Plan: general LC
Stats: 195/142/148 Female 65
BF:
Progress: 113%
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[QUOTE=Wifezilla]I am still waiting for the hard evidence that sugar and corn syrup are GOOD for cancer patients...since these are ingredients in ENSURE...a product often doctor recommened to cancer patients.

[\QUOTE]

Sigh. You apparently think I am saying something I'm not. I don't believe that sugar and corn syrup are good for you - quite the contrary. The only point I was trying to make is that the chemo drugs were tested and their effectiveness is known in the context of a "standard" diet which is higher in carb than any of us eat. There is plenty of reason to believe that they could very well be less effective or even harmful with a low carb diet. Any one considering doing this should be aware of the risk. It could mean their life.

I have looked at your blog, but I prefer to get the real scoop straight from the study and not an oversimplified summary. If you search pubmed you can find the abstract and possibly have access to the entire study. Repeating what has been reported in the press is passing on third hand information.

Wifezilla, I have refrained from saying this, but you could very well be endangering the lives of cancer patients. You simply do not know that low carb and chemo is safe. There are dozens of chemo drugs, dozens of different kinds of cancer, and they all interact in different ways. Leave it up to the oncologists to decide with their patients on an individual basis what is best for them. I hope that you will continue to grow your knowledge of cancer and especially of how varied this disease is. I highly recommend pubmed over the popular press.
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  #57   ^
Old Tue, Apr-08-08, 07:45
Wifezilla's Avatar
Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Posts: 4,367
 
Plan: I'm a Barry Girl
Stats: 250/208/190 Female 72
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Colorado
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Quote:
Wifezilla, I have refrained from saying this, but you could very well be endangering the lives of cancer patients. You simply do not know that low carb and chemo is safe.


Show me the evidence that they are unsafe. Chemo has been tested with high carb, and now there is a thread about a study that shows that fasting plus chemo works better. There goes your theory about needing carbs for chemo.

Do you own stock in ensure? Why do you recommend against a way of eating you yourself practice? You seem to be holding low carb to a standard that is not even being held to current recommendations and practices.

Quote:
Leave it up to the oncologists to decide with their patients on an individual basis what is best for them.

Oncologists can't even agree. Some do tell their pateints to avoid carbs. Some say "eat whatever you can", some say avoid fats yet there is no evidence that fat causes cancer.

Individuals decide what is best for them by getting information. I have given what I found. You gave what you found. Now let them decide.

Telling people I am endangering people's lives is just silly.

Last edited by Wifezilla : Tue, Apr-08-08 at 09:50.
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  #58   ^
Old Tue, Apr-08-08, 08:00
Daisymaiz's Avatar
Daisymaiz Daisymaiz is offline
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Posts: 5,985
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 160/136/120 Female 5'3"
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Progress: 60%
Location: Midwest USA
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I wish you the best Squid.
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  #59   ^
Old Tue, Apr-08-08, 09:52
Wifezilla's Avatar
Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Posts: 4,367
 
Plan: I'm a Barry Girl
Stats: 250/208/190 Female 72
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Colorado
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From the American Cancer Society...

"Limit intake of simple sugars."
http://www.chemocare.com/eatingwell/cancer_diet.asp

Of course, they don't tell you that bread, pasta, rice, and potatoes are ALSO simple sugars...but this is ALL a low carb diet does. It limits simple sugars.
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  #60   ^
Old Tue, Apr-08-08, 10:43
kaypeeoh kaypeeoh is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/180/165
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Progress: 25%
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Squid, are you assuming your cancer is the type that loves glucose or was there a test for this? My wife had herc-2 positive breast cancer four years ago. She had a mastectomy and chemo. She was given chemo because she had hodgkins lymphoma 15 years ago and received a lifetime dose of radiation as treatment back then.

As of now she is still cancer free. I've used a lowcarb diet for 8 years or more and believe it can prevent cancers. My wife is not sure about that but eats a lot less sweet things than in the past.

Good luck.
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