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  #91   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 12:21
Wifezilla's Avatar
Wifezilla Wifezilla is offline
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Posts: 4,367
 
Plan: I'm a Barry Girl
Stats: 250/208/190 Female 72
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Paleo in a nutshell? The joys of dairy are a neolithic venture. Yep, some people can "tolerate" it. Some people can also tolerate eating other pastey substances like pasta, and bread.


SO true!

Now, if you would have just said that on the first page, maybe there wouldn't be 6 pages of posts...LOLOL

(Just kidding. This has been a fascinating discussion.)
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  #92   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 12:59
Sagehill Sagehill is offline
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Posts: 14,561
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 250/161.4/130 Female 5'3"
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Location: Central FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I hate to spark up controversy especially seeing as how this is how you make a living but... I guess if I am going to risk getting a severe case of food poisoning from raw milk I want to have some pretty good evidence that it does all these magical things. I guess I'm still looking for that magical escape clause myself that will make dairy products into something that don't harm me. But to date, I haven't found it.
I'm curious why you think you'll risk severe food poisoning from raw milk. Even the CDC has to admit, however reluctantly, there is very little risk, compared to say, hamburger, raw spinach, etc etc, and that most of the "raw milk poisoning" cases they love to cite were in fact due to raw suitcase cheeses from Mexico. What else they won't tell you is, that pasteurization is no proof of safety.... many people have become ill or even died from pasteurized dairy, even recently.

I've been drinking raw milk for ten years and have never become ill from it, and have sold it for four years without a single complaint of spoiled or even off-tasting milk. My 82-yo mother has been drinking it for years, even drank it through her chemotherapy last year and did not become sick, especially when her defenses were lowest. And I know of many other farmers who sell raw milk, and they don't ever have complaints either; in fact the demand is growing so fast that many of us are turning away customers because we don't have enough milk. I have a waiting list that keeps growing because I already have as many as I can handle, and adding more animals would cause me to start cutting corners.

But then I have healthy, well-fed animals, as do all the people I know who sell untreated milk. I would never drink, nor ~ever~ recommend drinking, raw milk from a commercial dairy that sells bulk milk intended for pasteurization. Heck, I don't even recommend drinking that stuff even when pasteurized.
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Why is it that dairy seems to be the last hanger-on for people who wish to be more paleo and convince others that dairy can't be a legitimate part of it?
Probably because we like it and don't wanna give it up! lol

All kidding aside, because I truly believe there has been a lot of misinformation about dairy that keeps getting repeated, mostly due to unhealthy processed dairy, which provokes me to provide a counterbalancing view on the benefits of untreated dairy. Also because I truly believe that properly raised/handled/consumed dairy offers excellent nutrition and health. Most reports of problems and ill-health from commercial dairy are fairly recent, within the last 80 years.... since the advent of mass-raised livestock, in fact, which also applies to mass-produced meat as well.

I guess the question comes down to purity... if you're a purist, then you'll eat what you consider to be pure paleo eating, but then I question eating mass-produced meats. How purist can anyone be anyway who buys meat from Walmart? Isn't there a range of purity?

Why is buying meat from Walmart considered more pure than drinking raw milk?

Not trying to be inflammatory, just offering an alternate view.
Jenny
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  #93   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 13:22
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Plan: Paleo/Low Cal
Stats: 000/000/200 Male 5 ft 10 in
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagehill
I guess the question comes down to purity... if you're a purist, then you'll eat what you consider to be pure paleo eating, but then I question eating mass-produced meats. How purist can anyone be anyway who buys meat from Walmart? Isn't there a range of purity?

Why is buying meat from Walmart considered more pure than drinking raw milk?

Not trying to be inflammatory, just offering an alternate view.
Jenny

I can appreciate your efforts and promotion of clean dairy. I surely wish that all farmers cared as much as you obviously do. As for meat from Walmart, I don't touch the stuff. I buy about 90% of the meat we eat from our local farmers market, mostly in the form of pasture-raised beef and pork. I tend to buy chicken from regular grocery stores.

I think, however, that espousing clean dairy is a good thing -- It' just ain't paleo as a class of food, whereas meat is.
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  #94   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 14:47
Sagehill Sagehill is offline
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Plan: My own
Stats: 250/161.4/130 Female 5'3"
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Awww, shoot. Point scored for Proteus. lol
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  #95   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 16:12
Kskline Kskline is offline
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Posts: 117
 
Plan: Paleo
Stats: 282.8/244.2/120 Female 5 feet 5 inches
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Originally Posted by Nancy LCIf you're doubting my word on the casomorphin, there's a ton of peer reviewed clinical studies archived on PubMed which you can reference [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?term=casomorphin&search=Find%20Articles&db=pmc&cmd=search
here[/url].


Not doubting at all. I totally am a believer in the casomorphin and the addictiveness of cheese, etc. I think I will give up cheese for a while and see how it affects my sinuses which are always plugged up.

Kim
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  #96   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 16:16
Kskline Kskline is offline
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Posts: 117
 
Plan: Paleo
Stats: 282.8/244.2/120 Female 5 feet 5 inches
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Progress: 24%
Location: Idaho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I always made my own kefir. But I had kind of ignored them for a few months recently and they dissolved into a slurry. Oops. I might have some dried. Oh well, I should be avoiding the dairy anyway.

Sure, if you have farms anywhere around you. But as we get huge urban sprawl, like in So. CA, this really isn't an option.

I checked the price on raw milk... $9 for half a gallon. I decided that there isn't anything in milk I really needed and there were a lot of thing I am avoiding.


Okay, so I am dating myself somewhat, but when I was growing up in junior high/high school, my best friends family had a small dairy across the irrigation ditch from our house. I used to take my gallon jug over to their house whenever we needed milk and they would fill me up for $1 right after a fresh milking.

Kim
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  #97   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 17:12
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
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I'm curious to know why raw milk enthusiasts believe they're immune from the bacteria found in raw milk?

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...lr=&btnG=Search

I was googling raw milk over on scholar.google.com, looking for info about enzymes or fermenting and casein and pretty much all the hits I got were like this:

A point-source outbreak of campylobacteriosis associated with consumption of raw milk.
… outbreak of Escherichia coli O157: H7 infections caused by commercially distributed raw milk.
… reaction detection of Campylobacter jejuni and Campylobacter coli in raw milk and dairy products.
Survey of Ontario Bulk Tank Raw Milk for Food-Borne Pathogens

It didn't take much to convince me that incidents with raw milk are not all that rare. I guess for the same reason I limit my consumption of raw eggs, maybe only a few are contaminated with salmonella but the result of salmonella poisoning can be a life-long cause of a very painful form of arthritis and life threatening illness.
Quote:
Abstract:
Raw (unpasteurized) milk can be a source of food-borne pathogens. Raw milk consumption results in sporadic disease outbreaks. Pasteurization is designed to destroy all bacterial pathogens common to raw milk, excluding spore-forming bacteria and possibly Mycobacterium paratuberculosis, but some people continue to drink raw milk, believing it to be safe. Current methods for assessing the bacteriological quality of raw milk, such as aerobic plate counts, are not usually designed to detect specific pathogens. The objective of this study was to estimate the proportion of pick-ups (loads of raw milk from a single farm bulk tank) from Ontario farm bulk tanks that contained Listeria monocytogenes, Salmonella spp., Campylobacter spp., and/or verotoxigenic Escherichia coli (VTEC). Samples from 1,720 pick-ups of raw milk were tested for the presence of these pathogens, and 47 L. monocytogenes, three Salmonella spp., eight Campylobacter spp., and 15 VTEC isolates were detected, representing 2.73, 0.17, 0.47, and 0.87% of milk samples, respectively. Estimates of the proportion of theoretical tanker truck loads of pooled raw milk contaminated with pathogens ranged from a low of 0.51% of tankers containing raw milk from 3 bulk tanks being contaminated with Salmonella spp. to a high of 34.41% of tankers containing raw milk from 10 bulk tanks being contaminated with at least one of the pathogens. Associations between the presence of pathogens and raw milk sample characteristics were investigated. The mean somatic cell count was higher among VTEC- or L. monocytogenes-positive samples, and the mean aerobic plate count was found to be higher among L. monocytogenes-positive samples. These results confirm the presence of bacterial food pathogens in raw milk and emphasize the importance of continued diligence in the application of hygiene programs within dairies and the separation of raw milk from pasteurized milk and milk products.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte...000011/art00008
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  #98   ^
Old Mon, Nov-12-07, 19:07
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kallyn kallyn is offline
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Posts: 1,998
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 150/130/130 Female 5 feet 7 inches
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Location: Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagehill
Only 2-3 states allow sales of untreated, real milk in stores, CA, PA and another New England state.


I lived in PA for awhile and I never saw raw milk in the store. There was a raw grassfed dairy about 10 min from my house though, so raw milk was definitely legal to some extent.

I also lived in WA for awhile (Seattle to be exact) and they sold raw milk in the grocery store there.
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