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  #46   ^
Old Thu, Jul-12-07, 18:59
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
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Vince Gironda a trainer from the Golden age of bodybuilding would have his pupils do this to replace glycogen.

I would have it before bed to avoid daytime sleepiness..

Just have a small yam,potoate, bowl of oatmeal,brown rice..something to that effect.
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  #47   ^
Old Thu, Jul-12-07, 20:35
Ghoulia's Avatar
Ghoulia Ghoulia is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,214
 
Plan: Moderate Low-Carb <100g
Stats: 130/110.2/115 Female 5'3.5
BF:00/00/00
Progress: 132%
Location: Cal-i-forn-ia
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PUPILS?!?!?!? Wow, haven't heard that word in a long time, and at first I thought you meant the black part of the eye. Then I sobered up, had some more steak salad that I MADE MYSELF thank you very much (I claim ignorance for the BBQ most of the time, but I really DO know how to use it. AND, for the record *I* do not cook the shit out of stuff like my HUSBAND DOES! just so you all know - you'll sleep better tonight knowing this tidbit) and realized you were talking about students.

Students, pupils, same difference.

ANYWAY! I will try this.

Prolly not tonight though, even though tomorrow is weights day, because I picked FOUR LOVELY RIPE tomatoes (huge ones) off two of my thirty-six plants (don't ask) and ate two of them all cut up on the salad with oil and vinegar dressing. So probably got enough carbs from that nonsense. We shall see manana!

Thanks again for all your help.

Julia

p.s. WHERE is your journal? why don't you have one? WHERE are the pics? WHERE is that money you owe me? Oh, wait, wrong person. Fine, KEEP your million dollars.
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  #48   ^
Old Fri, Jul-13-07, 06:33
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
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You know I have to party with you at least once before I leave this plane of existence Ghoulia!

Pics?? The less seen of me the better!!! I kindof look like the missing link.

My face definitely wraps up the theory that we share common ancestry with apes.
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  #49   ^
Old Fri, Jul-13-07, 09:30
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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Ghoulia, do a search on TKD (targeted ketogenic diet). From what you've described, I agree with GSD--you would most likely benefit from some carbs pre-workout. And NOT fruit carbs, or sugar carbs--you want to refill muscle glycogen--starchy carbs for the win.

Gost, I agree with alot of what you write, but not about your stance on carbs. I mean, you're only telling half the story. Yah, carbs in the system will temporarily halt fat burning, BUT if you are weight training, this is the time to take carbs as they will go to the muscles. If one is low carb adapted, they will go back to burning fat for fuel quickly after exercising. If one is a bit worried about getting back into ketosis, a little bit of cardio post lifting will work wonders towards that end.

As for GSD and her 300gC refeeds....Gost, you know about leptin and such, right?
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  #50   ^
Old Fri, Jul-13-07, 09:42
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
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Leptin..of course. I read about Leptin years ago...

But this being a low carb site well are all versed on the fact that insulin halts lipolysis,,it is that simple.

Yes those with with super insulin sensitivity can do well on a higher carb intake..but that is far and few between, especially for those who are not using any "assistance".

Carbs do not magically go to muscles..that is very debateable..

but let's not lose sight of what a carb is...regardless if it is complex or simple..it is still all sugar...all of it.

And Dane ,I'm probrably older than you and I was heavily into bodybuilding in the 80's and early nineties.

I was taking in close to 400 grams a day of carbs..Carbs for energy, carbs for my fiber,carbs for glycogen, carbs to stimulate the anabolic properties of insulin...blah,blah..

Well guess what? I am now a prediabetic..insulin resistant.

I am absolutely convinced my higher carb intake during my youth led to this..

And these were all "good" carbs..brown rice, whole wheat noodles,yams,oatmeal, legumes..

fricking insanity!

IMO these are worthless foods, totally not needed if a healthy, lean body is what you are after.
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  #51   ^
Old Fri, Jul-13-07, 09:56
LoveMyGSDs's Avatar
LoveMyGSDs LoveMyGSDs is offline
Strong Chicks Rock!!
Posts: 8,999
 
Plan: Atkins (total, not net)
Stats: 194/151.2/150 Female 5'5"
BF:35.8%/19%/17%
Progress: 97%
Location: MD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gostrydr
Lovemygsd..I'm still not sure how taking in 300 grams of carbs a day promotes weight loss..what mechanism??


Not per day, one day per week for a refeed. It's replenishing my muscle glycogen.

Your body will adapt to a particular diet, which mine did, and something different will get things moving again. In my case, a PSMF combined with one free meal and one refeed per week.
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  #52   ^
Old Fri, Jul-13-07, 09:59
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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Gost, I totally agree that a diet high in carbs like you described is a bad idea. But that is NOT what a refeed is. A refeed is a short period of high carb intake, coupled with adequate protein and lower fat, with the sole purpose to bump up the leptin levels in a dieted person. Not all lifters need refeeds; the need is dependant on bodyfat levels, how long/intensely they've been dieting, etc.

GSD is doing a pretty severe diet, so refeeds are warranted. Ghoulia has no need for a refeed, but from what she is describing, some carbs around her lifting will help her finish her workouts. We're not talking about tons of carbs here, either. Probably just 20-30g total would do her. A carb is a carb, but fructose goes to preferentially refill liver glycogen rather than muscle glycogen, hence the recommendation to avoid fruit for these workout carbs.

Quote:
insulin halts lipolysis
Yeah, but what does this mean in the context of a hypocaloric diet? It means ultimately she will burn bodyfat for fuel. Lifting weights is a glycogen-fueled activity. If she is glycogen depleted, which is quite possible if she's been lifting higher rep for a while on ultralow carbs, then she will need a bit of carbs in order to complete her workout.

Life, she is full of compromises. Temporarily halt lipolysis in order to provide glycogen to the muscles so that you can lift weights to help retain your lean muscle mass while you diet, or....not.

Quote:
And Dane ,I'm probrably older than you and I was heavily into bodybuilding in the 80's and early nineties.
You may be slightly older--I'm 38, not that it matters. I just hope that your bodybuilding knowledge has progressed since the 80's/90's.
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  #53   ^
Old Fri, Jul-13-07, 10:17
Sixgun_5's Avatar
Sixgun_5 Sixgun_5 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 26
 
Plan: Low Carb
Stats: 161/157/145 Male 66
BF:
Progress: 25%
Location: Cincinnati
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Been workin in the gym 2. Im just hangin out readin ur stuff. Makin sense...weird. Seem more tired after my workout. Eat some green & meat 20 min after. Is this cool?
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  #54   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 07:44
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
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Dane,
It has progressed..way beyond the days of John Parillo and Robert "eat as man carbs as you can" Haas.

I have had the great fortune to be around some of the top trainers in the world over the years. Some I'm sure you are very familiar with..some of them have trained me as well.

Though most of them do not adhere to zero carbs, just about all of them recommend a lower carb approach.

All of them insist on post workout shakes. Whey isolate is king but if their clients bodyfat is higher then 12% they recommend glutamine instead of dextrose or maltodextrin for post workout carbs.

Preworkout was a formula of branch chain amino acids or a drink such as Glutacene ..but never,ever carbs..not even the starchy variety that you recommend.

Though we should all know this..carbs do spare protein..but they also spare FAT..

So the question is..has your knowledge progressed mr friend?
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  #55   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 08:41
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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Gost, you're all over the place in this post. First of all, I'm not advocating high carb at all, just "strategic carbs" I guess you could call it.
Quote:
Whey isolate is king but if their clients bodyfat is higher then 12% they recommend glutamine instead of dextrose or maltodextrin for post workout carbs.
I think you may be misunderstanding their recommendation, but ok. If they ONLY rec. post-workout shakes, then they are sadly out of date with peri-workout nutrition, IMO. Why do they recommend glutamine instead of carbs? Glutamine is an amino acid, not a carb substitute. And if they think glutamine in a post workout shake is achieving something significant.....don't make me pull out all the studies on why this ISN'T true,

Quote:
Though we should all know this..carbs do spare protein..but they also spare FAT..
Once again, please tell me what your muscles are using for fuel during an intense lifting session. Please tell me what happens to the low carb dieting lifter who becomes glycogen depleted and attempts to lift without carbs, over time.

It would probably be beneficial to you, Gost, to read up more on TKD's and CKD's and WHY they are helpful for a low carbing lifter.

It's not my intention to battle with you, Gost, it's just that you sometimes put out information that's just not true, or half-true, and that's not helpful to the people here who are trying to get it right.
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  #56   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 09:02
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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Oh yeah, as for the "carbs inhibit lipolysis" thing, anyone interested in learning about this should google "EPOC". (Excess Post-Exercise Oxygen Consumption).

Basically, you eat some carbs so as to be able to exercise intensely, which will do a lot of good things for you (bone health, maintenance of muscle tissue, etc.), and then EPOC will take care of any calories you may have missed out on burning thanks to the carbs ingested.

(One reason why you should never do HIIT cardio fasted, by the way. Feed it as you do weight-training. But now I'm getting off-topic, )
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  #57   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 09:30
galatia's Avatar
galatia galatia is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,640
 
Plan: low carb
Stats: 173/135.8/130 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Mississippi
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Lisa and Steve...you're both very helpful and generous with your help. It's good to see a friendly debate going on here.

I just want to add MY experience with long term lowcarbing and lifting. I would become so tired and weak, I'd find myself laying in the floor crying. Started eating some carbs. and protein before lifting and felt SO much better. I'm sure there are those who haven't had that experience, all I can speak about is my own experience.
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  #58   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 10:03
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
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Uhh Dane..if you have read any of my past posts, you'll see that I have written alot of Excercise Post Oxygen Consumption..
EPOC, especially when it comes to the myth of a "fat burning zone" and "target heart rate" for cardio

It has to do with not how much fat your burn while you excercise but hours after you excercise..So what's your point on that regarding carb intake??

Tell me which carbs bulid bone? I know there are some leafy greens that have an ok amount of calcium and other co-factors,but carbs are not usually known for their bone building properties.

I am well versed on TKD,CKD..I get Lyle Mcdonalds newsletter every week and I have corresponded with him on some personal issues.

Do I agree with everything he says? No, but I take a little from him, a little from Will Brink,Dipasquale,Duchaine, Michael Mooney and others and come to my own conclusions.

You have found what has worked for you..great. So why is it that I speak half truths?

I hate doing this,but I have been around..I have worked with bodybuilders,fitness competitors and I have gotten the chance to be on the inside..I've witnessed all star athletes ,olympic athletes and some hollywood stars train at some exclusive places. I've been lucky..and blessed. It is really eye opening.

So what I do, is try and put forth what I believe to be true from what I have seen...real world experiences and results.

I do not want to debate you either..you have alot of knowledge..but I am trying to help people by saving them a lot of frustration when it comes to diet,supplementation and excercise.

Does it work for everybody..nope.

But remember this, 70% of our population has some sort of glucose intolerance or some form of blood sugar abnormality.

For that 70% TKD or CKD can be devastating to the weight loss goals and their excercise performance.

I am one of those..
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  #59   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 10:11
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
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And as far as Glutamine not being good for post workout nutrition, I can pull studies for its effects on glycogen synthesis.. We could be here all day

And again I have seen the results it imparts on those who have taken it.

Give it a try Dane and see for yourself. I promise all your hard earned muscle will not melt away if you do not have any carbs after your workout.

30 grams of whey isolate
30 grams of glutamine powder..all mixed in water..no fat whatsoever

Athletes with more muscle mass take on larger amounts of both
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  #60   ^
Old Sat, Jul-14-07, 11:33
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galatia
Lisa and Steve...you're both very helpful and generous with your help. It's good to see a friendly debate going on here.

I just want to add MY experience with long term lowcarbing and lifting. I would become so tired and weak, I'd find myself laying in the floor crying. Started eating some carbs. and protein before lifting and felt SO much better. I'm sure there are those who haven't had that experience, all I can speak about is my own experience.
Thanks for posting this, Deb. This is what I wanted to get across--if you feel weak during lifting and are having a hard time getting through it, don't be afraid to experiment with carbs.
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