What reality is that? I'm very confused now. After many years of trial and error, yo-yo dieting, and struggling with depression, I've found a plan that works well for me, has me feeling fit and healthy and less depression. Exactly what reality am I ignoring? My reality that what I'm doing and living is working for me???

A little gentility, please? We can disagree without your telling me I'm ignoring reality. That seems harsh and unnecessary.

I've read and listened to everything I can get my hands on in the last 10 years, not just best-selling diet books. I came to my own conclusions after years and years of reading and more importantly trying a lot of different things to see what works best for me, and makes me feel and function the best.

Wow, just because I'm arguing with some of you its like you think I'm attacking you all. I'm not just quoting what I've read in issues of Men's Health or bodybuilding magazines. I do lit searches and read actual published articles. I'm still not convinced there is any metabolic advantage to low carb diets. If there is one, I don't think it is significant enough to make a fuss over. I don't have a closed mind anymore than any of you do. I see people losing fat on all sorts of diets and just don't see the sense in claiming one as superior. In my rant about ignoring science I didn't want to imply that anyone here in particular was doing that. Obviously that is not the case. I was just makining a statement about how it is oftentimes easier to listen to a book/plan rather thansee what is happening outside that book/plan. If insulin halts fat burning, then why do people who eat in a caloric deficit with plenty of carbs still see fat loss. I've sen fat loss on all sorts of different macro breakdowns. That is my anecdote, I believe most people are the same. I guess I could be wrong. I'm sorry if I'm disagreeing with some of you, but don't mistake this as personal attacks on any of you. ElleH, I know I could have easily come of this way at you so I do apologize. I don't think you are ignoring reality. I'm glad you found a diet that helps you. Also, please don't think that I'm closed minded, I'm only a skeptic.

Here is one article I've found that I thought was interesting and relevant here...


Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets.

* Johnston CS,
* Tjonn SL,
* Swan PD,
* White A,
* Hutchins H,
* Sears B.

Department of Nutrition, Arizona State University, Mesa, AZ 85212, USA. carol.johnston~asu.edu

BACKGROUND: Low-carbohydrate diets may promote greater weight loss than does the conventional low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet. OBJECTIVE: We compared weight loss and biomarker change in adults adhering to a ketogenic low-carbohydrate (KLC) diet or a nonketogenic low-carbohydrate (NLC) diet. DESIGN: Twenty adults [body mass index (in kg/m(2)): 34.4 +/- 1.0] were randomly assigned to the KLC (60% of energy as fat, beginning with approximately 5% of energy as carbohydrate) or NLC (30% of energy as fat; approximately 40% of energy as carbohydrate) diet. During the 6-wk trial, participants were sedentary, and 24-h intakes were strictly controlled. RESULTS: Mean (+/-SE) weight losses (6.3 +/- 0.6 and 7.2 +/- 0.8 kg in KLC and NLC dieters, respectively; P = 0.324) and fat losses (3.4 and 5.5 kg in KLC and NLC dieters, respectively; P = 0.111) did not differ significantly by group after 6 wk. Blood beta-hydroxybutyrate in the KLC dieters was 3.6 times that in the NLC dieters at week 2 (P = 0.018), and LDL cholesterol was directly correlated with blood beta-hydroxybutyrate (r = 0.297, P = 0.025). Overall, insulin sensitivity and resting energy expenditure increased and serum gamma-glutamyltransferase concentrations decreased in both diet groups during the 6-wk trial (P < 0.05). However, inflammatory risk (arachidonic acid:eicosapentaenoic acid ratios in plasma phospholipids) and perceptions of vigor were more adversely affected by the KLC than by the NLC diet. CONCLUSIONS: KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. The use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.

Thank you for your apology, and it is accepted!

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, and from your synopsis of the study above, your main beef is with the actual ketosis, right? I get that you don't think it's necessary...do you think it's harmful?

I have no beef with that. The polish Optimal Diet, which strongly influeces how I run my Atkins plan, insists that ketosis must be avoided by eating just enough carbs to keep one out of ketosis. Dr K claims that his diet is very effective at getting one to their ideal weight, and I'm sure it probably is. I don't seem to have any issues with being in ketosis (vigor, metabolic, or emotional) so I just go ahead and stick with that. I know that KLC works for me when other diets have left me hungry, tired and depressed and not losing weight, and KLC does helped tremendously on all those fronts. Why? I don't know! I don't care!! As long as I feel better!

I see where you are coming from. I do wonder about the high carb diet's effects on insulin in terms of disease, however, and I do think that people are well served by eating fewer carbs than more carbs, from a health perspective, and not just weight loss. See, there is so much disease in my family (CAD, HTN, AODM) that has been directly linked to excess insulin (and I assume from that, excess carbs) that while I'm trying to lose weight and feel better, I'm also trying to avoid those!

Yeah, I don't have a beef with ketosis or low carb. I just don't think they are necessarily advantageous for fat loss from a metabolic standpoint. Like I don't feel that 2000 cals of low carb is superior a mixed macro diet of the same amount of calories. I know that a calorie is more complicated in the human body than it is being burned in a a calorimeter, but I think are bodies do a pretty good job closing that gap and getting the most energy possible out of food. The things that low carb offers, low insulin, better lipid profiles, and such are great reasons to do low carb. I just don't fel they are necessarily superior in the fat loss department. This is just a mix of personal experience and from information i've read.

ElleH, how much fat grams do you consume in a typical day? Doesn't it make you fart? Hahahaha, happens with me if I eat too much fat. Would my body get used to high fat levels eventually?

I eat between 120 and 150g per day--not really THAT much higher than a lot of people here, I think the *biggest* difference is that my protein intake is much lower than most Atkins-ers. There may have been a little more gas (but it was barely noticeable if it was) and I did get a little mucousy poops the first few days, but it did subside pretty quickly. I think that you would adjust.

ElleH - what are your sources for fat?

Rain

For added fat I use butter, lard, mayo, nuts, olive oil, avocados, salad dressings and heavy cream. Sometimes cheese, too, usually goat cheese. Some people use coconut oil, but I haven't had any trouble getting my fat intake up without the addition of that.

I tend to choose fattier meats to increase the fat intake there.