Hey capo, have you looked here? http://www.drrons.com/organs-glands.htm

Hey, Capo. Thought of ordering on-line? I get a great price from vitacost.com on Garden of Life CLO. This brand is one recommended by Weston A Price foundation. I take this now, but will probably move up to the Blue Ice from Dr Ron (drron.com) for my next purchase - high vitamin.

http://www.vitacost.com/Garden-of-Life-Cod-Liver-Oil

Also, as far as vitamin D, have you thought about picking up some Carlson vitamin D gels? They come in 1000 and 2000 IU gels. The 1000 IU gels come with some natural A as well as it is from fish liver oil, but more D than a regular dose of CLO as it is concentrated specifically for the D3. It is all natural D3 as well, so not worries with overdosing. I take about 5000 IUs/day, started recently, and have already started feeling a positive difference in my mood and overall well-being

Check out the vitamin D experiment thread - very interesting and lots of valuable information here - thought this might interest you.

I'm 100% animal products (healing Crohn's disease) and I have noticed a fuller face already after only 3 months (almost) on the diet. Check out some of my before and after photos... Not a huge difference yet, but I think it is an improvement. Do you think there is a difference? The top ones are more the before and the bottom the after. At one point I was on a very low saturated fat diet and high-sweet fruit (baad idea), so I was very thin.

Take care and good luck with your facial building!

Kallyn, I've looked on Dr. Ron's site, but I think his products are way overpriced. I ordered two 8 oz. bottles of the Blue Ice High Vitamin CLO last night from another credible (but slightly cheaper) site, so hopefully they'll come in the mail in the next two days or so. I'm pretty sure that other CLO I was taking wasn't natural, because of the reduced amount of Vitamin A in comparison to some of the CLO's Weston Price endorses. As for ordering freeze-dried adrenal glands in pill form, I'm not really enthusiastic about that because I don't like popping pills. I'd prefer to do some hunting and gathering of my own adrenal glands rather than order freeze-dried products that have been processed.

Jayppers, I can definitely tell that your cheekbones and jawline have grown! You look so much better in your after photo, just after three months! Your nose looks like it's broadened slightly at the end too. And you wear glasses, so I'm gonna recommend this book on lighting, if you haven't already read it. It's called Health and Light by John Ott, who studied the effect of different lighting sources, especially sunlight, on various animals and human examples. Ott broke his reading glasses, and consequently, when he was outside for extended periods in the sunlight, he noticed that his health ailments lessened or went away altogether. His arthritis went away as well as his need for his glasses. It's just a thought; perhaps you could spend some time out in the sun (or in full spectrum lighting) without your glasses.

I read on the Weston Price site about cod liver oil, and skipped right to the Blue Ice, which I'm going to try as soon as I get it. I think I've been overdosing myself on that other stuff (very bad because of the polyunsaturated fat content), so if I can just take 1 tsp of the Blue Ice CLO a day, I'll get plenty Vit. A/D in the right proportions. I ordered a UVA/UVB emitting reptile lamp that emits UVA/UVB radiation for up to 6 feet; I'll bask in it (without sunglasses) inside and see if it has any effect on upping my vitamin D (though I know I'm going to need more vitamin A if I use it..perhaps I'll eat more eggs).

Forefather, I've read your entire blog on myspace, and it's really interesting; I like your idea of trying to remake human society into a paleolithic one that is around 180 million in population rather than what it is now, 6 billion malnourished/ill-health people living off of the wrong types of food and suffering the biological consequences). I too see no value in money, especially when it will be used trying to make my lifestyle as far from civilized as possible. The only way I can see myself enjoying a 'civilized' life is if I get a small farm and farm all of my food, though that's a lot of work too. Going the hunter wild-woman route seems like the most fun. Only, I get the feeling it's just a way of ignoring the inevitable: that society will destroy all things healthy and the Earth will eventually have to recreate what took tens of thousands of years to establish. What with nuclear threats from Iran and North Korea, and pollution coming from nearly every civilized country, it's a sad thing, but I feel that human civilization will meet an end and bring down everything around it. The only other option for people like you and me who want to avoid civilization is to befriend a far-out society that is destined to survive the destruction civilization will bring upon itself or carry to other native peoples. This would mean relocating completely to a remote, dangerous place that civilization has never touched; then one would need to befriend the natives and adapt fully to their lifestyle (and a lot of the African tribes hate whites or lighter-skinned people, which would be another danger). No doubt, the only one supporting this change of lifestyle would be the people doing it, because their friends and family will sorely regret never seeing them again.

I admit that I don't like going to the movie theater, I don't like feeling pressured every day to be involved in something that will compromise my health is some way (and eventually working in an ill-lit hospital 40 hours a week but still getting paid a lot does not appeal to me). It's so hard to get a hold of good, natural food these days, and society is so gross in most ways. I'd certainly miss a few things, such as being able to listen to music on the bose, playing my violin and guitar, wearing civilized clothing, bathing, and all those bathroom necessities that women find necessary to feel clean.. but I really don't want to live in a society that is going to meet a demise for stupid reasons. I certainly believe in getting an education, but not to make money, not to increase a need for business and consumerism, and not to work with other things deviating from the most crucial issues that affect peoples' health, but health care is sickening anyway, so I'm left without a reason to exist in society. Sure, I want to help people realize that their health is being compromised by most things in society, but I feel like it's a lost cause.

Anyway, to wrap things up, I'm going to try the new CLO and UVA/UVB lamp, and try to eat lots of liver (and catch catfish/bass at the lake during the summer to acquire some adrenal glands).

Wow, there's been a flurry of posts since I last checked in. I read with interest.

Forefather, I respectfully disagree that plant foods were merely incidental. It's pretty well known that our primitive ancestors were primarily veggies from the earliest times. What is debatable is whether we were also omnivorous that whole time, or whether it was something new to us or our relatively close ancestors (like chimpanzees, who are clearly omnivorous). I think kallyn already gave some good links.

Part of the reason I do eat veggies, especially raw veggies, everyday is for the live factors in it. As capo points out, cooking destroys some very essential enzymes and catalysts in food. I don't really eat raw meat (mostly for aesthetic reasons). I do get some sushi, cerviche, and other raw seafood occasionally. But my live nutrients come primarily from plant foods. I feel healthiest and most full of energy when I eat meats, broths, plenty of good fats (like cod liver oil and coconut oil), and lots of raw veggies, especially raw greens. Paleolithic people ate lots of raw greens. Veggies are also a rich source of vitamins and minerals. I can get plenty of minerals from foods, but vitamins??? They are much more sensitive to cooking. Also, all the more minerals the better since poor soil health today leaves us less in both plant and animal foods.

I think we're all on the same page here that the closest we can eat to our paleolithic ancestors, the better (because that is what shaped us as a species). But since we can't be totally sure, we have to do our best and see what works for us.

I second the question whether twin labs is the best choice for cod liver oil. I use blue ice cod liver oil. If I could afford it, I would definitely do butter oil with my cod liver oil. I think it is quite clear from the evidence that there are amazing benefits. But at $60 for an 8 oz bottle, I'll wait to I win the lottery. Joking aside, I was thinking about buying it and consuming it only once a week. I'll have to see.

Jayppers, I can tell a huge difference. That's amazing.

Thanks for your feedback Lucy and Capo. I'm excited that my diet is producing positive changes. I can't wait to do another compare in a few months.

A few things I also noticed is that the folds of skin over my eyelids, under my eyebrows, has become fuller and encases my eyes better, and my neck has also begun to look more padded and fuller, and also is just thicker all around. And although you cannot see it in the pictures, my behind has really started to fill out and is more bubbly than before - all of my pants are fitting tighter, or better - especially in the butt. I'm really excited about this because for not exercising much (YET), being able to put on weight like this in all the right places is just what I've wanted! I've always been skinny and had trouble putting on weight.

Lucysdream, what exactly is your evidence that the paleolithic people were omnivorous or herbivorous and not carnivorous like Forefather said? I suppose people can examine the bone structures of paleolithic skeletons; Weston Price specifically examined old skulls from Native Americans (who were obviously nomadic carnivores because of their thick bone structure).. I'll pull up a picture in comparison of skulls from his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration:


FIG. 27. Left: Example of greater thickness of pre-Columbian Indian skulls in Florida than modern skulls. Right: Illustration of bone surgery of ancient Florida Indians. Note healing of margins of trephined opening into a cyst, of the lower jaw. This is typical of the advanced surgery of the Peruvian Indians.

The thing I don't quite understand is if they had such thick bone structures, how did they get enough vitamin D/A/C in their diets to build up such thick bones? I mean, I require a lot of cod liver oil and Vitamin A/D/C to change/alter my facial bone structure. If I don't take the cod liver oil, I can notice a slight diminishing of my cheekbones, just after one day (even if I spend a few hours out in the sun).. Even if people today were to go paleolithic and eat only meat, how would they get enough vitamin A/D in their diets to have such strong bone structures?

I think even in a primitive state, people need high intensity sunlight exposure (on both their eyes and skin and probably hair too) to maintain adequate vitamin D production. Nomadic people who lived in not-so-sunny climates such as Norway/Sweden/etc. would be lacking adequate sun exposure and would have to take a high vitamin D supplement (cod liver oil).

My theory is that unless people were to migrate to the deep south or Africa/South America, (Everything close to the Equator) they would need to take cod liver oil to have strong bone structures. So even if people in America wanted to go paleolithic/primitive and live their lives as far away from civilization as possible, they would still need to obtain high vitamin cod liver oil regularly, especially if they're clothed individuals (not like the native Africans).

And I'm supposed to get my high vitamin cod liver oil and UVA/UVB light in the next day. When my mom got home today, she told me a coworker from work said the only purpose of reptile lights is to heat up the reptiles. I think her coworker is a chauvinist idiot know-it-all, and my mom is her usual self for believing him. She proceeded to tell me the lamp would just get me hot and be a waste of my money..before it even happens, she somehow is able to predict the future. I can't wait until I change this scenario.

Jayppers, when I first started my high fat/low carb/mod protein diet, I noticed that I seemed to be gaining weight in my butt/thighs/and adding muscle everywhere. It seems to be logical then that this way of eating doesn't make one fat, only proportional and healthy. Like you, I have also had that thickening of the skin (I wasn't really fond of it, but since you are, I suppose I should be too, because it could be much much worse).

I don't know what to do to make sure to be getting adequate nutrition. It's so hard when you have to seek special meat/eggs and pay loads of money for it too. I don't think there's a farm that has truly natural grazed cattle/all natural meat for one hour from where I live, and I eat a lot of meat every day! It's close to impossible with my busy schedule, classes, and on top of that, my mom works two jobs and definitely couldn't manage a drive let alone the cost of nutritious meat. I've suggested for us to get hens and a rooster to at least have fresh eggs (since we have two acres of land), but it's out of the question for her..it's too much for her to think about I guess -_- ...

But I can't picture myself thriving in a primitive society either..I mean, c'mon, what about deer ticks, lice, tapeworms, west nile virus, malaria, etc.. that you catch from natural living conditions. I sure don't want to ingest raw meat that has tapeworms in it, then get sick and die from it because there isn't a hospital for hundreds of miles from me..nor do I want to drink blood from an African tribe. Perhaps I could picture myself as an Eskimo, but that's about the extent of my visioning unless there's more proof somewhere that living in primitive societies is better than living in 'civilized' society. I'd rather own a livestock farm for raising and butchering cattle than live under a hide tent, freezing, and worrying if there will be food to eat the next day, week, or year. Living in nature is certainly more of an adventure than living in a clean house and having a 5-8 monotonous job. Forefather, I now understand why you think only 180 million people would populate the earth rather than the 6 billion that occupy it today..people would simply starve to death because they couldn't catch their food or would go malnourished because they couldn't catch healthy/fat animals. It's a better bet to own several cows/domesticate or herd them and kill them off when you need to eat. Weston Price says the largest area on earth that is perfect range for cattle grazing is in China, and it is being used for agriculture..how sad.

Wouldn't it be more idealistic for people to own cattle grazing land, fence it in, own a flock of cattle, and eat them. And what about the Isolated Swiss mentioned in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration who consume Cow Cheese and homemade whole rye bread and have beautiful physical statures, teeth, and very little incidence of dental carries? Or the Arabs Price found who lived for three months at a time solely on camel's milk?

I don't think people have to necessarily eat 100 Percent meat to be healthy; they have to eat foods that don't rob their body of nutrients and are nutrient dense. Most foods today aren't good enough. To be honest, I think the safest way is to own a livestock farm, raise cattle, chickens, goats, etc. and live off of their milk/cheese/eggs/or meat/organs.

Capo, here is a site that outlines all the paleolithic stages (and our primate ancestors) and what they ate. It's just a site I got at beyondveg http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-...imeline%20start

Animal fat is a good source of A and D. So to address your speculations about where people got their A and D, I do think it's from animal fat or fish. Fat also provides a catalyst for the absorption of minerals, including calcium. A and D also help in its utilization, so animal fat seems to provide a nice synergy of all the elements for bone health. If we didn't start out eating meat as primates, I definitely think doing so helped humans evolve in the way we did with bigger brains and bigger bodies.

Exactly, I 100% agree- it doesn't matter if your diet is pure carnivore or whatever- THE most important substances that should be consumed are liberal amounts of fat-soluble vitamins- which are only found readily in animal fats. The minerals and proteins that the fat-solubles help maximally utilize can come from anywhere- meat, eggs, veggies, fermented grains- as long as the nutrients themselves are present in your diet. However, meat is the most concentrated source of these nutrients- it seems a waste of time for me personally to go out of my way and ferment my 100% organic super special ultra pure no pesticide brown rice from a small local farmer certified USDA organic, all when I could get triple the nutrient content from a slab of steak. Also, for me, I love the physical and mental benefits of a zero-carb carnivorous diet- it just seems so in-line with what my body is designed for, and veggies seem completely unecessary- why should I eat them? For nifty phytochemicals? No thanks, I'll just drink herbal teas for that, you can spare me the fiber and indigestion from neolithic vegetables.

Uh...when Weston A. Price examined the natives and their foods, the single most shared characteristics of all of their diets were the liberal consumption of fat-soluble acivators- as in, their fat-solubles came from their food, including vitamin D- it wasn't the sunlight carrying them through to perfect health- you could literally measure all of their fatty foods breaming with vitamin D, sunlight was only a helping hand, it wasn't necessary.

If I went primitive anyways, I wouldn't be clothed if it was warm and sunny out- why would I? Embarassment? Anyone who might be around me would be naked too, so what?

I think you have the 'difficulties' of primitive living somewhat overblown- sure, life was physically more demanding, but if you had to hunt almost every single day of your life, you'd be pretty damn good at it- it'd be almost as easy as butchering domesticated cattle, just more physical work would be required. It'd be like your career- people today are highly skilled in their civilized careers- using the same logic, primitive people would be highly skilled at hunting and obtaining food- it would just be every day life, just like how modern man drives to work and does his job every day, just more physical exertion would be required (and is that a BAD thing?)

With regards to parasites- I seriously think parasites and diseases are overblown by civilization and its exaggerated sense of importance. Our statist institutions (schools) throw us half-truths and some even outright lies, portraying wild animals as gauranteed to have parasites, etc. They also condition us into believing that the medical industry (as in profit-seeking business) is the only answer to things like parasites- there are numerous herbs and plant chemicals that dispel tapeworms- I'm sure our ancestors knew which ones. Thus my philosophy: plants are terrible foods, but excellent medicines. Why have artifical medical institutions when a majority of what they "treat" can be cured and treated much more simply with natural plant chemicals and herbs? Modern medicines are based off of plant chemicals anyway, why should we be conned into taking dangerous prescription medications when a natural herb that its derived from in the first place could have just as significant an effect? Why? I'll tel you why: because you can't put a patent on herbs and plant chemicas- you have to syntehisize it into something atrificial in order to generate monopoly profits out of it through the use of exclusive patents. Eh, I'll stop there- now I'm getting into my socio-political critique of capitalism and the state.

Also, Francis Pottenger, with his cat experiment, found that the 'degenerated' (fed processed food) cats acquired parasites on a regular basis, while the robust healthy ones (on all raw meat and milk etc.) never had a single parasite, as their immune systems were excellent. What if, being the domesticated degenerated species we are, our modern population is simply more susceptible to parasites than our physically robust ancestors were?, due to our disgusting dietary behaviors over the millenia crippling our immune system's ability? Seems pretty plausible to me, we are on the whole less physcally and mentally able than our ancestors of the paleolithic era.

No, you are incorrect- the global population would be dramatically reduced because the food chain can simply not support 6 billion carnivores, or even omnivores, not because primitive living is more 'difficult'. Again, I'm sure you know this, but just to visualize for a moment:

Carnivore/Omnivore------->C
Hebrivore-------------->HHHHH
Plant----------------->PPPPPPPP

We are primarily in the herbivorous location, a shift to carnivorous high animal product diets (even with plants) would naturaly push us up to the top- where less can survive, as there are only so many herbivores to kill and support flesh-eaters. In other words, if every single person ate healthy high fat, the populaton would naturally shift with the trophic level. The further up you go in the food chain, the more energy is wasted through heat and metabolic processes- thus carnivores have the least amount of this once the flow of energy gets to them, and so there must be less of them. You can't feed 5 people with 2 plates of food.

The problem with a domestication of animals- it in turn domesticates us: we no longer need our intelligence to cleverly hunt and trap animals, we can just have them 'butchered'- thus less natural selection on brain power; we no longer need our health and fitness to obtain our means of survival- we just slaughter the cow with ncie shiny blades and use its leather, without conflict- thus less pressure to develop strong bodies; we no longer need a natural adaptation to the open air and environment, and become feeble, weak, and sensitive. CONFLICT is what makes us strong, smart, and great, not domestication. Without conflict, there is no driving force to develop great characteristics like intelligence and strength. Just look at the house dog- wolves are much more intelligent and physically able, while dogs have become somewhat 'dumb', as their food is just handed to them by their human symbiotes- they have no conflict, and thus no driving force to develop intelligent characteristics. When civilization collapses, you can live in your limiting domestication all you want- I will expose myself to the natural forces that made the human species what it was in the first place- smart, physically fit, and robust. I will enhance my mental and physical capacity to its fullest extent through conflict- the driving force that produces excellence. I refuse to submit to docility and comfort- I refuse to be a mediocre product of a fake environment. There can be no progress without a force to to push it into development, there can be no development without conflict to create the need for it. Muscles won't grow stronger unless you tear them first, minds won't grow smarter unless you give them problems to solve first, and bodies won't grow robust unless they are battered by their environment first. Without these driving forces, there is no reason to be our best, and we become a degenerated version of what we could be.

Lucysdream: Please, show me paleolithic, not neolithic or proto-neolithic, evidence that human beings consumed plant foods on a regular, consistent, basis.

Dude, good job! It feels awesome to be more 'proportional' and 'filled out'. I used to be the skinny shrimp, too, now I actually feel like I have a normal strong body. In fact, looking at other kids my age, I've already passed most of them up in terms of facial development (except those damn cowboys who were probably on traditional-ish diets their whole lives- not to mention the generations of settlers before who are their ancestors)

Keep up the good progress man!

Capo- I also feel like I would 'miss' my electric guitar and mp3 music files if I went primitive. But a primitive lifestyle would be SO fulfilling in and of itself, that I probably wouldn't miss it all that much once I actually took the plunge- I'm sure I could express my musical urges through primitive instruments, it's not like I'd be giving up music itself- and if other people join me, it'll be extremely easy to produce interesting music with nothing but the raw materials of our environment and our voices. I mean, hell, I've seen people make techno-music with nothing but their vocal chords- just think how much more we could do with natural materials on top of that? I think synthesizers and electric instruments are somewhat of a 'cop-out' of producing the real sound itself in most cases (like operatic synths in place of real voices).

Ultimately, modern luxuries are an addiction that must be broken if we are to reconnect and re-integrate within the natural cycle.

Thanks, Mark (forefather).

I agree with your assessment about plant foods. I have approached a fully carnivorous diet to hopefully heal my Crohn's disease (inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)) and I find anything with fiber or sugar detrimental to my digestive process. The book Life Without Bread supports the use of a low-carbohydrate diet in the treatment of IBDs and many other diseases. If I knew what I know now by not having Crohn's I would still adopt a completely carnivorous diet because I agree that it is the healthiest form of nutrition for humans. Although the author is a proponent of a fruitarian diet (which I do not support at all), they have an aticle I've always found interesting with regards to why We Don't Need to Eat Plants. I just wanted to state my opinion that I also believe plant foods to be non-essential, and potentially detrimental as many inhibit some nutrient absorption.

I also agree that certain herbals are best for parasite cleansing. Tinctures of black walnut (green hulls), wormwood, clove are used very successfully in the elimination of parasite adults and their offspring (eggs) because these plants have developed anti-parasitic defensive traits. I do not completely agree though that concerns of parasites are overblown. I actually think that parasites are more abundant than many realize - even down to our tap water. I think that a regular parasite cleanse using the above mentioned liquid extracts should be practiced routinely. Consuming coconut oil is also an excellent way to, at a minimum, keep parasites at bay, and potentially eliminate them. I consume this regularly at every meal. Bottom line though, I agree that plants are inferior sources of nutrition, but great medicines.

I read a bit of your blog and I think it is very interesting. I too think I would enjoy this type of living. Hunting, being in tune with nature, relying on your family and "tribe members" to thrive and exist on a daily basis. I was a boy scout when I was younger and I LOVED camping, hiking, shooting bow & arrow, learning to sharpen and use knives and navigate, among many other things.

Forefather, you have some interesting ideas. I'll check out your blog. I try to live a natural lifestyle myself (as much as possible). I use herbs for healing, don't have a t.v. (though obviously a computer). I don't even use shampoo or laundry detergent. (But yes, I am clean.) But I'd rather be modern borrowing paleolithic ideas, rather than live paleolithically. Give me heat in the winter and ac in the summer! And let's not forget art, music, and philosophy. I do support environmental causes, but at the same time, I think the desire for convenience is just a fact of human nature.

Can you clarify "paleolithic"? I thought that is what the link was for. If you look at our closest primate relatives, they eat primarily plant foods, and only supplementally bugs and monkey. We are 97% genetically related, so this seems to be the optimal diet for us as well. But as I said, meat did take us to the next level, so I believe it's essential for human evolution. But again, I also think veggies are essential. I didn't think about the sugars in it. But if you stick with greens, wouldn't you avoid that? The innovation in the neolithic era was grain, not veggies. It was the domination of domesticated grain, according to many, that was responsible for decreased health and increased disease. The neolithic people got very little variety, including very little meat and veggies.

But I also follow Weston Price's ideas, which are compatible with the neolithic diet. So according to him, if you do eat grain, you should at least soak them (though I guess you don't want to go to the trouble, forefather), and I do believe that raw dairy is healthy for those who can tolerate it. Of course grain and dairy were the two principle foods that were unavailable to the paleolithic people, which is also why so many people are allergic to them.

Wow, you guys are so smart thinking ahead about your nutrition and physical development. So many stupid people don't care about either and will inevitably live shorter lives (but sadly reproduce a dumb, physically inferior generation).

I'm with you Forefather and Jayppers; I think the type of life lived in nature, catching your food and living with comrades would be as good as it gets. Living in symbiosis with nature and taking in all its benefits would be a new and better way of life.

I think though, it would be much more enjoyable and realistic if there were to be several tribes or nomadic people who wanted this lifestyle rather than a single person or family unit trying to get by. Most of the native societies Price found and studied who were in excellent physical condition had a communal setting that they lived in. So, wouldn't it be more realistic to move to a small small deserted village and make a new way of life there, like the Swiss and Africans?

Personally, I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible to do it alone. For one, I would go crazy not having the company of others - love and affection is psychologically healthy and necessary as far as I'm concerned. Additionally, I think that the many tasks that would need to be performed each day (keep in mind, we're talking FULL on nature here) would require a group of individuals to tend to in order to live fully healthy, long, and enjoyable lives. Hunting in particular would probably be much more successful in a tribe/group arrangement. These are just my guesses though - I have no real life nature survival experience except for Cub Scouts.