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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Dec-13-06, 18:52
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Plan: CRON / Zone
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The last paragraph of the below pdf-availed paper is:

====================================================
"In summary, both caloric restriction and protein restriction increase
maximum longevity (by different amounts) and both decrease the rate of
mitochondrial ROS production and oxidative damage to mtDNA in rats. In
contrast, neither carbohydrate nor lipid restriction seem to increase
maximum longevity and neither of them decrease mitochondrial ROS production
and oxidative damage to mtDNA
. These results, taken together, indicate that
the decrease in mitochondrial ROS production and mtDNA oxidative damage
observed in caloric restriction is due to the reduced intake of proteins
that occurs during this dietary manipulation, and not to the decreased
ingestion of lipids or carbohydrates. This conclusion is also consistent
with the recent observation that methionine restriction (which also
increases maximum longevity) also decreases mitochondrial ROS generation and
oxidative damage to mtDNA." =====================================================


Sanz A, Gomez J, Caro P, Barja G.
Carbohydrate restriction does not change mitochondrial free radical generation and oxidative DNA damage. J Bioenerg Biomembr. 2006 Nov 30; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 17136610

Many previous investigations have consistently reported that caloric
restriction (40%), which increases maximum longevity, decreases
mitochondrial reactive species (ROS) generation and oxidative damage to
mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) in laboratory rodents. These decreases take place
in rat liver after only seven weeks of caloric restriction. Moreover, it has
been found that seven weeks of 40% protein restriction, independently of
caloric restriction, also decrease these two parameters, whereas they are
not changed after seven weeks of 40% lipid restriction. This is interesting
since it is known that protein restriction can extend longevity in rodents,
whereas lipid restriction does not have such effect. However, before
concluding that the ameliorating effects of caloric restriction on
mitochondrial oxidative stress are due to restriction in protein intake,
studies on the third energetic component of the diet, carbohydrates, are
needed. In the present study, using semipurified diets, the carbohydrate
ingestion of male Wistar rats was decreased by 40% below controls without
changing the level of intake of the other dietary components. After seven
weeks of treatment the liver mitochondria of the carbohydrate restricted
animals did not show changes in the rate of mitochondrial ROS production,
mitochondrial oxygen consumption or percent free radical leak with any
substrate (complex I- or complex II-linked) studied. In agreement with this,
the levels of oxidative damage in hepatic mtDNA and nuclear DNA were not
modified in carbohydrate restricted animals. Oxidative damage in mtDNA was
one order of magnitude higher than that in nuclear DNA in both dietary
groups. These results, together with previous ones, discard lipids and
carbohydrates, and indicate that the lowered ingestion of dietary proteins
is responsible for the decrease in mitochondrial ROS production and
oxidative damage in mtDNA that occurs during caloric restriction.

Introduction
Caloric restriction (CR) slows down the aging rate and increases maximum longevity in laboratory rodents and other animals (Barger et al., 2003). Nevertheless, the basic mechanisms underlying the effects of CR on aging and longevity are still unclear. The oxygen free radical mitochondrial theory of aging is currently receiving considerable support both from comparative and caloric restriction studies (Beckman and Ames, 1998; Barja, 2004a; Ramsey et al., 2004). Many investigations have consistently found that CR decreases the rate of production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) at mitochondria and the steady-state level of oxidative damage to mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) in rodent tissues (Gredilla and Barja, 2005). Low levels of these two characteristics are also constitutively exhibited by long-lived species when compared to short-lived ones (Barja, 2004b). These results offer a plausible mechanism by which CR could slow down the rate of aging, by decreasing oxidative damage and long-term accumulation of mutations in mitochondrial DNA (Barja, 2004a). However, it has not been clarified if the decreases in mitochondrial ROS production and oxidative DNA damage during CR are due to the reduction in calories themselves or are specifically related to the decreased ingestion of any of the three main energetic dietary components, proteins, lipids or carbohydrates.

Although the general consensus was reached in the last
decade that the life extension effect of CR is related to the reduced ingestion of calories themselves, recent studies and revision of old data suggest that variations in the main individual dietary components can also modulate longevity in rodents (Archer, 2003; Pamplona and Barja, 2006) and insects (Mair et al., 2005, Piper et al., 2005).We have thus initiated a series of studies to clarify the possible effect of restriction of those dietary components on mitochondrial oxidative stress. Two reports on the separate effects of protein and lipid restriction without changing the rest of the dietary components have been already published (Sanz et al., 2004, 2006a).

In the present study we investigate whether restriction of
the third energetic component of the diet, the carbohydrates, can be responsible for the two main effects of CR related to mitochondrial oxidative stress described above. In our dietary protocol carbohydrate ingestion is decreased while the intake of proteins, lipids and other dietary components ismaintained at the same level as in control animals. This avoids confusing the effects of carbohydrate restriction with those of increasing the percentage of other dietary components. In previous studies we have found that CR decreases mitochondrial ROS production and oxidative DNA damage in liver (Gredilla et al., 2001a), heart (Gredilla et al., 2001b), and brain (Sanz et al., 2005a) ofWistar rats. However, while detection of these decreases usually needs long-term restriction in other tissues (Gredilla and Barja, 2005), in the liver the effects are quicker and can be detected after only seven weeks CR (Gredilla et al., 2001a). We have thus selected this rat organ and implementation time for the present study of carbohydrate restriction because it allows performing the experiment (which needs the use of semipurified diets) in a much shorter time. The results obtained are discussed together with those previously obtained after seven weeks of protein (Sanz et al., 2004) or lipid (Sanz et al., 2006a) restriction also in the liver of Wistar rats, as well as with the available results on the effects on protein, lipid or carbohydrate restriction on animal longevity.

Materials and methods

A total number of 14 male Wistar rats of 250 g of body
weight were obtained from the Complutense University Animal Facility and were caged individually and maintained in a 12:12 (light:dark) cycle at 22±2?C. Control animals were fed ad libitum a semipurified diet prepared by MP Biomedicals (Irvine, CA, USA) based on the American Institute of Nutrition AIN-93G diet: 39.7486% cornstarch, dextrinized cornstarch 13.20%, sucrose 10.00%, soy protein 20.00%, soybean oil 7.00%, alphacel (non-nutritive bulk) 5%, mineral mix 3.5%, vitamin mix 1.0%, L-cystine 0.3%, choline bitartrate 0.25% and tert-butylhydroquinone 0.0014%. The diet given to the carbohydrate restricted animals was a modified AIN-93G diet. Its carbohydrate content was reduced while its content in proteins, in fats and in all the rest of its components was appropriately increased. Its composition
was: cornstarch 31.8%, dextrinized cornstarch 10.56%, sucrose 8%, soy protein 26.67%, soybean oil 9.33%, alphacel 6.91%, mineral mix 4.67%, vitamin mix 1.33%, L-cystine 0.4%, choline bitartrate 0.33%, and tert-butylhydroquinone 0.0019%. This diet was given each day to the carbohydrate restricted animals in an amount equal to 75% of the food eaten by the controls. The final result was that carbohydrate restricted animals ingested daily 40% less carbohydrates than the controls while the total amount of protein, fat and the rest of dietary components eaten was the same in control and carbohydrate restricted animals. After seven weeks of dietary treatment ...

Results

The body weight of the carbohydrate restricted animals was significantly lower than that of the ad libitum-fed rats after sevenweeks of treatment (Table 1). Theweight of the kidneys and spleen were also significantly smaller in carbohydrate restricted animals. These differences were no longer present when theweight of these tissueswas referred to body weight. The weight of heart, liver, and brain did not show significant differences between the two groups.

The rate of oxygen consumption of liver mitochondria
was measured without (State 4) and with (State 3) ADP
in the presence of complex I- (pyruvate/malate or glutamate/
malate) and complex II- (succinate) linked substrates.
The addition of ADP strongly increased the rate of oxygen consumption in all cases, indicating tight coupling of the mitochondrial preparations (Table 2). No significant differences in oxygen consumption were found between control and carbohydrate restricted groups with any substrate in either state 4 or 3.


The rate of H2O2 production of liver mitochondria was
measured in control and carbohydrate restricted rats using different combinations of substrates and inhibitors of the respiratory chain (Table 3). Addition of rotenone to pyruvate/ malate supplemented mitochondria strongly increased their rates of H2O2 generation both in ad libitum-fed and in carbohydrate restricted animals, and the same was observed with glutamate/malate in control animals. Antymicin A strongly stimulated the rate of H2O2 generation with succinate as substrate in both control and carbohydrate restricted rats. No significant differences in H2O2 production were found between control and carbohydrate-restricted rats with any substrate or substrate plus inhibitor combination (Table 3). The free radical leak of liver mitochondria did not show significant differences between both groups with any substrate (Table 4).



The level of 8-oxodG was significantly higher (7 to 9 fold
higher) in mtDNA than in nDNA in the liver of both control
and carbohydrate restricted animals (Fig. 1). Similarly
to what was observed for the rate of mitochondrial ROS generation, carbohydrate restriction did not significantly change the level of 8-oxodG in either mtDNA or nDNA.

Discussion

In this investigation the carbohydrate ingestion of male
Wistar rats was restricted by 40% during 7 weeks without recently found that methionine restriction without caloric restriction also decreases mitochondrial ROS production and oxidative damage to mtDNA in rat liver and heart (Sanz et al., 2006b), thus further supporting the possibility that protein and methionine restriction increases rodent longevity through decreases in mitochondrial oxidative stress.

Caloric and protein restriction share many common
effects in addition to life prolongation, including delays in puberty, decreases in growth rate, changes in metabolic rate, boosting of cell-mediated immunity, lowering of cholesterol levels, or decreases in preneoplastic lesions and tumours and lowering of protein oxidation (Youngman et al., 1992). Low protein diets also decelerate glomerulosclerosis in mice (Doi et al., 2001), delay the occurrence of chronic nephropathy and cardiomyopathy in rats (Maeda et al., 1985), and protect rat liver against exposure to toxic chemicals (Rodrigues et al., 1991). A lower (but significant) life extension effect in protein restriction than in CR would agree with the widely held notion that aging has multiple causes. CR could decrease aging rate through decreases in mitochondrial oxidative stress (due to protein restriction) as well as through other mechanisms like, e.g., lowering insulin/IGF-1 signalling (Richardson et al., 2004). This would be consistent with recent findings of a lack of relationship between insulin/IGF-1 signalling and mitochondrial ROS generation (Sanz et al., 2005b), which could be two independent mechanisms lowering aging rate in parallel during CR.

What are the effects of lipid restriction on longevity? Various investigations have discussed whether or not lipids are involved in CR effects, some supporting and some rejecting this idea based on different kinds of end point biochemical measurements and experiments (Masoro, 2000; Barzilai and Gabriely, 2001; Muurling et al., 2002). But very few studies have directly tested the effect of lipid restriction on longevity. An investigation in Fisher rats did not found changes in longevity after lipid or mineral restriction without CR (Iwasaki et al., 1988). Another long-term study performed also in Fisher 344 rats found increases in maximum and medium life span after 40% CR but not after 40% lipid restriction (Shimokawa et al., 1996). These and other investigations led to the conclusion that restriction of calories, but not of fats, slows down the primary aging process (Masoro, 1990). Thus, although available direct information is scarce and mainly limited to a particular rat strain, it seems safe to conclude that lipid restriction does not delay aging (Table 5). If that is indeed the case, it will fit well with the finding that lipid restriction without CR does not decrease mitochondrial ROS production and oxidative damage to mtDNA or nDNA (Sanz et al., 2006a).

Concerning carbohydrates, most of the available investigations have studied the effect on rodent survival after changing the kind of carbohydrate rather than restricting total carbohydrates in the diet. Although information is scarce, it seems that simple carbohydrates like sucrose, glucose or fructose shorten longevity compared to diets containing complex carbohydrates (Archer, 2003). Thus, it has been reported that carbohydrate given either as sucrose or as glucose, compared to starch, decreased the life span of rats (Dalderup and Viser, 1969) and mice (Mlekusch et al., 1996), whereas changing the source of complex carbohydrate from corn to rice did not modify maximum longevity in mice (Yamaki et al., 2005). However, the situation can be more complex since studies in Fisher 344 rats have found that a cornstarch compared to a sucrose-based diet increases both mean and maximum life span when the experiment is performed in ad libitum-fed animals, whereas sucrose is better for mean life span and cornstarch is better for maximum life span when the experiment is performed in CR animals (Murtagh-Mark et al., 1995). Concerning the total amount of carbohydrate in the diet the available information is even more limited and contradictory. One study reported an inverse relationship between total carbohydrate intake and life span in experimental animals (Ross, 1976). However, another study found that increasing the carbohydrate (dextrin) proportion in the diet of male Fisher 344 rats increased their 10th percentile survival by 41 days, a much smaller effect than that of CR which increased the 10th percentile survival in this experiment by 396 days (Khorakova et al., 1990). In any case, such effect would be incompatible with the possibility that carbohydrate restriction increases maximum longevity. Moreover, in several of the 16 studies described above in which protein restriction increased maximum longevity (reviewed in Pamplona and Barja, 2006) the decrease in dietary protein was compensated by corresponding increases in dietary carbohydrate. This is also strongly contradictory with the possibility that carbohydrate restriction increases longevity. Another study did not find changes in the longevity of shortlived autoimmune-prone mice after increasing total dietary carbohydrate under ad libitum feeding conditions (Kubo et al., 1987). Thus, it seems safe to conclude that most of the available information suggests that carbohydrate restriction does not increase rodent longevity (Table 5). This would agree again with the lack of decrease in mitochondrial ROS production and oxidative damage to mtDNA and nDNA observed in our study.

Last edited by Whoa182 : Thu, Dec-14-06 at 15:39.
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Dec-13-06, 20:05
Rosebud's Avatar
Rosebud Rosebud is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Talk about junk science! If you are still trying to convince us that your CRON diet is better than low carb, you'll have to do better than this nonsense.

How many studies did they do where the rats were fed neither "simple carbohydrates like sucrose, glucose or fructose" nor "complex carbs," ie starches?

Bring me a study where the rats were fed a high fat, medium protein and low carb diet, and I might start to pay attention.

Rosebud
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Dec-13-06, 20:29
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Elihnig Elihnig is offline
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I'd say with these ingrediants any living creature would have very poor health. "cornstarch, dextrinized cornstarch 13.20%, sucrose 10.00%, soy protein 20.00%, soybean oil"


Beth
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Dec-13-06, 21:11
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
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Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
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Whoa182........

This is also a quote from the same research article you posted above:

"Mitochondrial H2O2 production
is higher in short- than in long-lived species,
which is probably a cause of the higher rate of accumulation
of mtDNA mutations observed in the former
kind of animals."

Kinda blows your research assumptions if you ask me.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Dec-13-06, 23:58
Rachel1 Rachel1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins/IF
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I am not a rat.

And if I get hit by a Mac truck at age 60, I'll still be dead at 60, no matter what I've eaten or not eaten.

Frankly, life is too short to worry about what may or may not happen when I'm 60, or 90, if I even live that long. If I live to a healthy old age, hey, that's something most people who've lived in this world have never had a chance to dream of.

Rachel
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 02:38
GeorgeMead's Avatar
GeorgeMead GeorgeMead is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Quote:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0208/15/lkl.00.html
CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Interview with Julia Child
Aired August 15, 2002 - 21:00 ET

LARRY KING, HOST, LARRY KING LIVE: Tonight, Julia Child. She turns 90 today. The original queen of TV cuisine...

CHILD: ... I had my first French meal and I never got over it. It was just marvelous. We had oysters and a lovely dry white wine. And then we had one of those lovely scalloped dishes and the lovely, creamery buttery sauce.

Then we had a roast duck and I don't know what else. But from then on I was ...

KING: Cholesterol incarnate.

CHILD: ... I never had eaten that way before, and it just got to me.

...

KING: Do you like McDonald's?

CHILD: Yes, but there's another one called the In-and-Out Burger that I like, too. We have ...

KING: Oh...

CHILD: ... lunch here or there on the way down.

KING: Everybody in L.A. loves the In-and-Out Burger.

CHILD: Yeah.


I'll take my chances with Julia. You can have your modified rat chow, I'll take a Double-Double Protein style.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 02:45
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
low carb and Low fat doesn't extend life, PR and CR does?
Whoa, I have a question ... as a proponent of CRON, I don't understand why are you actually bothering to post on a low carb website?

Last edited by Demi : Thu, Dec-14-06 at 02:53.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 02:57
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ojoj ojoj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel1

And if I get hit by a Mac truck at age 60, I'll still be dead at 60, no matter what I've eaten or not eaten.


Rachel


I like that phrase, it sums up my philosophy!

Jo
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 06:52
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud
Talk about junk science! If you are still trying to convince us that your CRON diet is better than low carb, you'll have to do better than this nonsense.


What about the nonsense that you can JUST restrict carbs and do less CR and still get the same benefit as CR or protein restriction.

Quote:
How many studies did they do where the rats were fed neither "simple carbohydrates like sucrose, glucose or fructose" nor "complex carbs," ie starches?


POINTLESS! CR works in a dose dependant manner. Feed them 10% less they live 10% longer, feed them 20% less and they live 20% longer, feed them 50% less and they live 50% longer. Same for proten restriction, the severity of the restriction determins the lifespan. Not only that, in protein restriction they said they increased the carbs to make up for the lost calories!

CHO should work in a similar way, but a severe 40% restriction in carbohydrate intake did nothing. Suggesting that it doesn't offer the same benefits as IF, PR and CR.

CR is not an on/off switch that just extends life by a random amount. Its like a 'dimmer dial'. To suggest that you have to go to almost 0% carb to get the life extension effect is ludicrous. You should see it in a dose dependant response. When they cut carbs back by 40% it WAS a low carb diet because other macrounitents like fat and protein were increased!
Going low fat also failed too.

Quote:
Bring me a study where the rats were fed a high fat, medium protein and low carb diet, and I might start to pay attention.


Soon... sooon.

Quote:
I'll take my chances with Julia.


Lots of people reach her age, I don't understand your point...
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 07:05
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Posts: 1,770
 
Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
BF:very low
Progress: 100%
Location: Cardiff
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Quote:
And if I get hit by a Mac truck at age 60, I'll still be dead at 60, no matter what I've eaten or not eaten.


You might be able to dodge that truck if you were biologically younger.

Quote:
Frankly, life is too short to worry about what may or may not happen when I'm 60, or 90,


If theres no point in worrying, why are you on a diet?

Last edited by Whoa182 : Thu, Dec-14-06 at 07:12.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 07:41
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
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Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
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Quote:
posted by Whoa182 If theres no point in worrying, why are you on a diet?


It makes more sense for Rachel1 to be here and feeling there is no point in worrying, then for you to be here trying to antagnonize people who believe differently than you do. At least when we die, we won't die a virgin.......... LOL
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 08:11
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Plan: atkins/ IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182


If theres no point in worrying, why are you on a diet?


Quality of life now Whoa. It's really not so difficult. Most people just think the idea of earning a few extra decades by looking like a concentration camp victim for your whole life is a tad silly.

Look you could go on restricting calories but just eat the macronutrient ratio you were designed to eat. At least your body composition wouldn't be such a mess.

You know the thing that just keeps on confirming that you are pretty strange individual. You keep on posting this 'CR is more important than Low Carb' - on a Low Carb Forum . It's been quite a while now. And you haven't let up for an instant. It really is a bit CR evangelical. Why do you bother? Every now and then somebody feels sorry for you and leaps to your defense. But usually even they (Woo being a prime example) just can't help noticing that CR is a very strange eating disorder.

In a very recent response to Rosebud's latest attempt to shed some low carb perspective on your CR broken record, you said: 'What about the nonsense that you can JUST restrict carbs and do less CR and still get the same benefit as CR or protein restriction'. There's your problem. We don't think it's nonsense. None of the primate research done so far has Calorie restricted the experimental animals with their natural diet. Indeed I don't believe even any of the humans practicing CR currently are eating homo sapiens' natural low carb diet. So how would you know if a low carb CR diet is going to produce the same maximum lifespan increments as high carb CR at a more moderate level of calorie restriction? The research simply has not been done. This latest study you have posted is just very bad science.

I for one am pretty curious how long you can keep this up. And just one last question. If you don't think macronutrient ratio is important to human health, why have you reduced your own carb consumption?

I mean, you can't really lose by adopting a low carb diet. You can continue with your CR stuff anyway. You'll just be healthier in the process.

Last edited by kneebrace : Thu, Dec-14-06 at 09:12.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 08:14
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Posts: 1,770
 
Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
BF:very low
Progress: 100%
Location: Cardiff
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Anything that doesn't agree with what you guys say is 'junk science'...


It's so annoying that most of you have to keep making things personal all the time, its pathetic! and sad.

Fine I won't post anything. bye.

Last edited by Whoa182 : Thu, Dec-14-06 at 10:00.
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 08:35
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
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Progress: 106%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
Anything that doesn't agree with what you guys say is 'junk science'...


It's so annoying that most of you have to keep making things personal all the type, its pathetic! and sad.

Fine I won't post anything. bye.


You mean we won't have to look at any more photos of miserable monkeys? Perhaps you could just join in discussion of actual low carb sometime, hopefully not even in the war zone. You've obviously got a good mind. Surely your interest in human nutrition reaches a bit beyond CR.
Btw. Do try to eat a little more fat .

Last edited by kneebrace : Thu, Dec-14-06 at 08:44.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Dec-14-06, 08:58
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
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Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
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Quote:
Fine I won't post anything. bye.


Thank you...... I think it is a great idea that you stop posting and begin to Listen! Listen! Listen!

I believe you have good intentions, but in an unintentional annoying way. Study hard, but learn "bedside manners".

Learn that, in order to help anyone, you need to listen to them first. You don't give anyone on this forum credit for what they've learned through their own experience.

I am on a LC diet, not to extend my life. I am on a LC diet so I can have a life. I have reversed my diabetes, I am losing weight and becoming less insulin resistant, my blood work shows improvement, I've eliminated 6 out of 8 medications and about to eliminate the other 2 in the next week. How could you or anyone convince me, with my experiences, that eating more carbs or restricting calories is going to improve the quality of my health????? I'm on track, enjoy sharing my experience and wish everyone here the best.

If your way of eating works for you, do it. If it begins to fail you at some point (unfortunately, I feel it will), don't be afraid to admit you were wrong in your thinking and make necessary dietary changes. Good luck to you in your studies. I still hold out hope you will find a cure for something such as diabetes, but I think you need to be more open minded and not rule out the experiences of other people.

Cajunboy47
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