Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > Low-Carb War Zone
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Fri, Feb-24-06, 23:14
theBear theBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
Default The real human diet is a totally carnivorous one.

Hello all,

I have been eating the natural human dietary regime for over 47 years now. I do not eat anything whatsoever from vegetable sources. The only things veggie I use are spices. My diet is usually 60% fat and 40% protein by calories. I used to eat 80/20 when younger and about twice as much quantity of meat also, but that seems too much energy at my age, which is 71- even though I am very active. I think the body actually becomes more efficient with energy as you age, but I have no way of proving it true. Otherwise, my body today is very like it was at the age of 30. I figure most of what we call 'aging' is due to insulin damage to the collagen and other body structures. No carbs = no insulin. I don't heal quite as fast when injured as I did as a youngster, however. But I have few wrinkles, and my skin is still strong and elastic.

At this point I would like to point out that a zero carb diet does NOT cause ketosis. The body rapidly adapts within a few weeks and begins consuming the ketones from fat metabolism. A fully keto-adapted body excretes no ketones in the urine. A metabolic by product, 'ketone bodies' are actually a special kind of carb, and they substitute for glucose at the structures which use it. They have the added advantage of making you feel good- and well fed.

The body cannot store dietary fat, there is no mechanism for transport across the adipose cell's wall, nor can it 'burn' carbs, which actually are toxic in more than the tiny amount required by the brain and a few other structures. The body converts dietary carbs (all convert to glucose as they are absorbed) into body fat. The conversion mechanism requires insulin which is very tissue-damaging. It is correct to say that dietary carbs are the base cause of both heart blockage and diabetes, (not a disease).

I must warn all of you that it is very unlikely that very many will be able to eat as I do over the long term, or in fact, to follow any diet for long which is much different from the one you were trained to as a baby/child. This is because diet is learned much the same way language, dress and behaviour is, and is buried deep and inaccessible, a part of your acculturation/socialisation. The very thing which makes us human is that deep and almost instinctive complex of behaviour.

It requires a powerful will and a determination to change, in order to succeed in adopting the 'extreme' diet which this website is based on. Even those who are morbidly obese, as powerful a motivation as any I can imagine will have 'cravings' for what I call 'non-food' (all vegetation and carbs) which will eventually prove irresistible. A few may manage to stay on the diet for years, but unless you are prepared to stick with it for maybe ten or more years, you will drift back into eating what I consider poison. For some reason my mum was not interested in forcing me to eat the veggies I hated so, and i was able to eat only what I liked- mostly meat, especially hamburger and the fat those at our table would cut from their steaks. Still I had massive struggles abandoning the 'civilised diet'.

I suggest that no non-food be taken home, none allowed in your fridge or pantry (out of sight is hopefully out of mind). Make a request when seated in a restaurant that the bread bin be removed (but please leave the butter), and when ordering, request that the vegetables be removed from the plate in the kitchen (just say you don't like to see 'good food go to waste').

Even during the years I was soundman for Grateful Dead, I stuck to my guns and remained totally carnivorous. I am restricted by the forums rules (as I read them) from telling about my essay on diet and exercise which is posted on my website. Basically it states that humans were totally hunting peoples until the end of the paleolithic age. No paleolithic archeological dig has ever produced any food residues from vegetables. Chemical analysis of bones from the digs indicates they are the same composition as the African lion- thus, virtually no intake of vegetation. There were no 'hunter-gatherer' societies until the neolithic, even though some modern HG tribes still made and used typical paleolithic napped-stone tools. The so called Nearthin and Paleodiet thus are both nonsense, true paleolithic people were total carnivores and ate no veggies whatsoever.

In the relatively short evolutionary period since the consumption of vegetables as food there has not been any real adaptation to such low grade low energy, difficult to digest foods. Because we have no adaptation to digesting or processing vegetables as food, they are all basically very bad for us.

We evolved as an active, group-hunting animal. We have a high natural requirement for physical exercise and cannot live long or be healthy without a lot of it.

I hope my post is of some help to others. Just persist. I show that it IS possible to overcome your dietary socialisation.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Fri, Feb-24-06, 23:44
Bobi-p's Avatar
Bobi-p Bobi-p is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 628
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 240/145/150 Female 69 inches
BF: 21%, HT: 69"
Progress: 106%
Location: Southern California
Default

Hi, theBear,
I was very interested in your Post since you echo many of my own sentiments about veggies. I would rather not have to eat any at all but it seems that society somehow crams the notion down our throats that eating them is a necessity. I usually do have veggies as a side at a dinner out, but leave them there, on the side. You mentioned that you had a web-site. Could you please PM the link to me? I would be very interested in reading your info.
Thanks,
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 00:01
Rosebud's Avatar
Rosebud Rosebud is offline
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21,508
 
Plan: EF,GT
Stats: 235/166/145 Female 5'4
BF:
Progress: 77%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I am restricted by the forums rules (as I read them) from telling about my essay on diet and exercise which is posted on my website.

Hullo Bear, and welcome.

You are very welcome to add the URL of your website as your homepage. Just go to "UserCP" on the green menu bar, and open "edit profile," and you will see where to add the URL.

Cheers.

Rosebud
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 03:27
saffron28's Avatar
saffron28 saffron28 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 527
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 244/217/140 Female 5ft. 5in.
BF:
Progress: 26%
Location: Michigan
Default

What a interesting post and one I can relate to. I have always disliked most vegetables and some time struggle to eat them. I have always prefered meat and fat. I gained most of my weight eating potatoes, and whole grain breads and pasta. This is information I will be refering back to in the future. Thanks for posting it.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 04:05
diabowl diabowl is offline
New Member
Posts: 13
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 252/250/180 Male 178 cm
BF:
Progress:
Default

Hi, theBear:

I found your comment interesting with some new info. Some reference sources would be interesting to read.

I am also exactly your age. I just do not look as young as you are.

I will be studying my diabetes as well as the effect of the low carbohydrate diet on myself. My first study is shown in my thread.

I would also like to see your website.

Diabowl
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 06:10
foxgluvs's Avatar
foxgluvs foxgluvs is offline
From Flab to Fab!
Posts: 11,752
 
Plan: Fat Flush / SB
Stats: 300/225/185 Female 5ft 8"
BF:No Thanks
Progress: 65%
Location: UK
Default

Hello I just wanted to ask you a few questions...there seems to be a few contradictions in your argument here.
Firstly you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear

I must warn all of you that it is very unlikely that very many will be able to eat as I do over the long term, or in fact, to follow any diet for long which is much different from the one you were trained to as a baby/child. This is because diet is learned much the same way language, dress and behaviour is, and is buried deep and inaccessible, a part of your acculturation/socialisation. The very thing which makes us human is that deep and almost instinctive complex of behaviour.


Which insinuates that it is pre-programmed into us to eat a mix of vegetation, protein and fat, and other food items. Thus, if we tried to detach ourselves from that, we would not be able to, or at the very least find it considerably hard.

Then you go on to say:

Quote:
It requires a powerful will and a determination to change, in order to succeed in adopting the 'extreme' diet which this website is based on.


What web site? This one you just posted to? Only I think that you're kind of contradicting yourself there, you say it takes far too much willpower for people to change to an 'extreme' diet....when you are talking yourself of eating only meat....no vegetation at all....so in my book, your version of a diet is MUCH more 'extreme' than what people here on the boards are trying to do.

The you go on further to say:

Quote:
No paleolithic archeological dig has ever produced any food residues from vegetables. Chemical analysis of bones from the digs indicates they are the same composition as the African lion- thus, virtually no intake of vegetation. There were no 'hunter-gatherer' societies until the neolithic, even though some modern HG tribes still made and used typical paleolithic napped-stone tools. The so called Nearthin and Paleodiet thus are both nonsense, true paleolithic people were total carnivores and ate no veggies whatsoever.


A-haaa, so it should be relatively EASY to follow your plan then....because if we came from civilizations which already did not eat vegetation (which I find almost impossible to believe but nevermind...I'll keep with your argument...) then surely you are preaching to the already converted....we just don't know it yet?

I have one further question. Where exactly do you get your vitamines and minerals from if you don't eat any vegetation?

I totally respect your view of your own plan in general, but I would be hypocritical if I sat here and told you I believed every single thing you said.

What about the argument that yes, indeed we might very well have evolved from people who didn't touch a leafy thing their whole lives....but we also live at least two thirds longer than 'they' did then and who was to say 'they' got it right back then? Who's to say that the way we have been eating for the past (however long) isn't better for us than what they were doing back then....just because it happened in the past doesn't make it better!! I often hear people say in an argument about diet in general that they think the stone age, or cave man diet was much better for people than it is now.....but cave dwellers lived on average 20 years, you were concidered positively OLD if you hit 25!!!! We live till we are in our 80's or 90's now.....do you not think that could be because we eat better more neutricious things than they did??!

I agree that this is possibly the best plan you could be on.....but for YOU. Not nesasarily me, or everyone else on this board.
You make a very convincing argument, and I respect your post, but I also feel that such radical change of anyones diet could cause problems...especially when our bodies have been 'programmed' in the way you describe, into eating vegetation for all these years.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 06:47
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 5,883
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: 199/178/160 Female 5'7
BF:Size 12
Progress: 54%
Location: Rural Maine
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxgluvs
.....but cave dwellers lived on average 20 years, you were concidered positively OLD if you hit 25!!!! We live till we are in our 80's or 90's now.....do you not think that could be because we eat better more neutricious things than they did??!





Allow me to clear up this misconception by quoting Drs. Michael and Mary Dan Eades in their wonderful book, "Protein Power Lifeplan" (I've chopped it into shorter paragraphs for readability):
Another misconception is that prehistoric man usually died when he was twenty years old, so it didn't matter how much meat or fat he ate because he didn't live long enough to develop heart disease or any of the other disorders that meat and/or fat supposedly cause.

The twenty-year figure that is often used as the average age of death for prehistoric man is precisely that: the average age of death. That figure tells us nothing about the rate of aging or the maximum life span of prehistoric man.

A much more reliable figure that has been developed and used by those scientiests studying aging is the mortatily rate doubling time (MRDT), the time it takes for the mortality rate, i.e., the probabiliy of dying each year, to double. For example, if your probability of dying this year is arbitrarily set at one, and it takes eight years before your probability of dying is double what it is now, your MRDT is eight, which is about what it is in humans. Someone thirty years old, therefore, is twice as likely to die at age thirty-eight, four times as likely to die at age forty-six, and eight times as likely to die at age fifty-tow, and so on. The MRDT of mice is about three months; a fruit fly's about ten days.

Dr. Steven Austad from the University of Idaho has been able to determine that the MRDT of prehistoric man was about the same as ours. Prehistoric man had the capability to live as long as we do, he just didn't have as gentle an environment, so what we're comparing when we compre our average age at death to his is the relative hostility of our two environments.


Remember, prehistoric man did not have antibiotics or any knowledge of medical practices that we have today. Probably a good many died of broken bones and infection from wounds sustained in hunting.



All of the Eades' books provide a wealth of information regarding why veggies and grains are not necessary for human growth and nutritional health.

That said, just eating meat and fat today cannot be likened to prehistoric man's diet. They ate much more of the animal, not just the sirloin cut. They ate marrow, the innards, just about everything. We don't eat those things, and so miss out on many of the vitamins and nutrients.

Perhaps theBear eats more than just hamburger and sirloin. He's obviously doing something right if he's in such excellent shape.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 07:34
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16,521
 
Plan: Frugal Primal (Frimal?)
Stats: 165/135/135 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

Hi Bear - interesting post. I'm a fiber skeptic and I believe that grains and legumes are deleterious to human health, but to extend that to vegetables, fruit, seeds and nuts is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Given the existance of modern hunter/gatherer peoples who do, indeed, eat vegetation; I'd have a hard time believing that our paleolithic ancestors shunned it completely. I can't imagine a caveman wandering around in spring not partaking in the bounty of berries, for example. Our sweet tooth had to evolve at some point, on something other than honey.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 08:46
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,112
 
Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/185/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 80%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

Quote:
I am restricted by the forums rules (as I read them) from telling about my essay on diet and exercise which is posted on my website.
As long as it is not a commercial site, posting about it is fine.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Sat, Feb-25-06, 11:52
foxgluvs's Avatar
foxgluvs foxgluvs is offline
From Flab to Fab!
Posts: 11,752
 
Plan: Fat Flush / SB
Stats: 300/225/185 Female 5ft 8"
BF:No Thanks
Progress: 65%
Location: UK
Default

Quote:
Another misconception is that prehistoric man usually died when he was twenty years old, so it didn't matter how much meat or fat he ate because he didn't live long enough to develop heart disease or any of the other disorders that meat and/or fat supposedly cause.

The twenty-year figure that is often used as the average age of death for prehistoric man is precisely that: the average age of death. That figure tells us nothing about the rate of aging or the maximum life span of prehistoric man.


Dr's or not, I would seriously love to see the 'evidence' for this argument. I'm sorry, but no matter where you sit on the fence regarding any issue, you will always find some kind of 'support' from someone out there....or some research which supports the theory. I believe in evidence.....scientific fact, not someone elses 'opinion'.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 02:26
theBear theBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
Default The real human diet is a totally carnivorous one.

-Ok.

I see that the old bugbear of 'seeing' only what fits into one's world view still holds strongly amongst some of those responding to my post. I will attempt to clear things up a bit.

My website is: www.thebear.org.

diabowl:

A zero-carb diet is the traditional treatment for diabetes (not a disease) before the development of injectable insulin, first from pigs.

Diabetes is the result of the immune system sensing the widespread tissue damage from insulin, targeting the source cells in the pancreas and destroying them. Insulin resistance type diabetes is the result of the tissues themselves rejecting insulin. Neither form is found in any other animal in nature, man's carnivorous pets fed a grain based diet may also suffer this syndrome.

In the absence of dietary carbs, the body does not need to produce insulin and the diabetes essentially 'disappears'. You will never be told this by a doctor because then you would be free of the need for medical intervention and your daily ration of drugs. All the assorted ills diabetics suffer are actually caused by insulin, cataracts, heart attacks, bad joints, etc. These are the kind of damages done to the tissues by insulin, and the injected kind is a far more powerful damaging agent than the endogenous hormone. Blood monitoring on a zero-carb regime will quickly confirm the stability of blood glucose.

foxgluvs:

Nowhere in my post do I say 'preprogrammed'. I thought I made it quite clear that a person's eating habits, including the composition of the diet is solely determined by that person's mother between birth (and about 8), the same time all the social skills which make us uniquely human ware acquired.

The name of this website is lowcarber.org,, is it not? A low carb diet is 'extreme' relative to the usual western civilised diet. My diet is just the end point of lowering carbs. My statement was not that it took 'far too much willpower', only that it requires strong willpower and great determination.

I am sure that there are a great many things known by anthropologists that you would find 'impossible to believe', however scientific evidence does not require belief, only knowledge. The composition of the materials found in paleo digs as well as bone composition tests are well known and published, I suggest a search on Google. And check the journals of anthropology in a library.

Vitamins. that is easy, there are virtually no sources of any vitamins to be in vegetation (which is why all vitamin supplements are synthetic), but all are found in abundance in meat. For example no source of A other than animal liver exists. The amount of B complex in 30 gm of fresh red meat is more than can be extracted from one hundred kilos of yeast concentrate- once it was done, but at great expense. C is not the only antiscorbitic substance, since a diet of just red meat prevents scurvy (the Inuit diet).

Moderns live a long time in spite of a wickedly bad diet but it is due to medicine. Most paleo people died either of trauma of various kinds in hunting and war, starvation or disease. Lifespan is therefore not a measure of the effectiveness of diet, as even a lousy one can get you to ~30/40. I think you mean nutritious. It is just plan nonsense to claim that there is any basic difference between individual humans so far as body functions, etc are concerned, the biggest cop up in avoidance is ' is ok for you but everybody's different', so please, let's not go there.

bawdywench:

I have eaten nothing but sirloin steaks for months on end, but I do like eggs cheese, many cuts of meat, even organs like liver tongue kidneys and brains (although the Inuit never eat any of them- and most likely neither did the true paleo hunters). Fish and chicken are nice too, in fact I have never 'met' an animal I would not eat. The one meat that needs to e eaten sparingly is liver, which contains a lot of starch (glycogen) and vit. A which is toxic in excess. Excess may be as little as one ounce of the liver of an animal feeding on fish.

Kristine:

Concerning vegetables, there is no 'baby'- it is all just a load of dirty water. Moderns do not eat any raw natural vegetation other than sugary fruit and some difficult to indigestible nuts. All modern veg foodstuff have been extensively modified by selective breeding to reduce to eliminate toxins and still require long cooking, are low in nutrients and cause a growth of harmful bacteria in the intestine, while the fibrous cellulose residues (fibre) scratches the delicate lining and causes mucus and scarring. This reduces nutrition and eventually as you age, this damage will lead to malnutrition even on a good diet. Meat leaves the stomach as a liquid after about 45-60 min, and is totally absorbed in the first foot or two of the small intestine- no scratching and no mucus formation. Human milk is very sweet, hence the 'sweet tooth' is easy to develop if reinforced by lollies as a baby. Without this reinforcement sweets are seldom later sought after. If paleo people actually ate seasonal fruits (quite possible in some places), they ate them where found, no evidence or residue has been found in digs.

The only thing careful about my diet is I don't use salt (a chemical) and I don;t cook the meat much, I make sure I eat a lot of fat. Virtually any meat is ok, even for long periods, it is a matter of personal taste, like- I really like raw oysters and soft shell crabs (and for that matter Aussie mud crabs..)
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 02:46
samfhanan's Avatar
samfhanan samfhanan is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 57
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 160/140/120 Female 164 centimeters
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Egypt
Default

Excellent post.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 02:56
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,719
 
Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Illinois
Default

bear,
very interesting post! I would be interested in a list of what you do eat..so far you mentioned meat, poultry, fish, eggs and cheese...do you eat butter? mayo? spices like pepper? garlic? Do you eat only hormone free meat? I know that if you buy your meat at a grocery store for example, cows are injected with hormones nowadays. Also animals are fed with grains. Doesnt that change the meat at all and make it any danger when ONLY eating meat? just curious! Would love to hear your take on it! I will check out your website!
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 04:24
manaburrn's Avatar
manaburrn manaburrn is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 575
 
Plan: Lots of milk+milk protein
Stats: 27.2/14.5/09.0 Male model, 6'1"
BF:lbs:237/200/212
Progress: 70%
Location: Upstate, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I have been eating the natural human dietary regime for over 47 years now.
WOW - those posts are the best that I have read on the subject of diet (mostly because I agree with 100% of them)

Pure GOLD theBear!!

(especially the vegetables thing - I say they are totally optional and I get called on that opinion constantly)

Last edited by manaburrn : Sun, Feb-26-06 at 04:40.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Sun, Feb-26-06, 04:57
manaburrn's Avatar
manaburrn manaburrn is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 575
 
Plan: Lots of milk+milk protein
Stats: 27.2/14.5/09.0 Male model, 6'1"
BF:lbs:237/200/212
Progress: 70%
Location: Upstate, SC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
the fibrous cellulose residues (fibre) scratches the delicate lining and causes mucus and scarring.
Oh, the fiber!!! I think people are so programmed to eat that stuff - I won't touch it! There was a study involving women that showed a MASSIVE increase in cancer for those ladies that ate the most vegetable fiber, and it was COMPLETELY DISMISSED AS A FLUKE!!
Quote:
One odd finding of the study was a 34 percent increase in the risk of cancer in women who ate the most vegetable fiber, a finding that has not been seen before. Fuchs says, however, "I am dubious that this is a real effect."
http://www.applesforhealth.com/colcan1.html

Reenactment:
"Why do you eat that stuff?"
"Because they told me to."
"Well, aren't they the same ones that said you'll go brain dead in three days if you don't eat carbs?"
"Yes."
"And you still listen to them?"
Reply With Quote
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:09.


Copyright © 2000-2014 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.