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  #76   ^
Old Thu, Jan-31-02, 13:19
Aine Aine is offline
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Posts: 65
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 206/194.5/160
BF:
Progress: 25%
Location: UK
Default Great thread!

Great thread Andy!

Boy, have I heard lots of these comments too.

Oh! YOu could be a model, if only....

I'd want you to be my girlfriend if you were thirty pounds lighter...

YOu'd look great if you stomach was flat....

Oh, you've gained so much weight...what's wrong with you?

You're beautiful, but..

I like you but my friends think you're too fat. (prospective bfriend)

ANd so on. The worst ever was being told by a quack of a therapist that I was sexually molested as a little girl,because I was physically mature for my age,and must have been very sexy, so my molester couldn't resist me! I still haven't recovered from that one!

That's all folks.
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  #77   ^
Old Fri, Feb-01-02, 07:01
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
Default

Thanks Firespirit and Aine.

Two more good contributions.

When you start reading about these reactions of skinny people towards us, it makes you cringe with shock and embarrassment. Gradually, you become angry with a slow-burning, seething kind of anger at the condescending arrogance of these people, whose careless remarks and nasty natures make our lives so lastingly unpleasant.

One thing has come out of this. If ever I have a lot of money, and employ people, I will only employ overweight ones. It will be a safe haven for an abused majority. The people on this forum are good evidence that the nicest people are those others consider overweight, and the nasty remarks all come from those that I consider unnaturally thin!

Perhaps the answer came out of a discussion I had with Kezza. She was talking about people being of two metabolic types: those who retain their fat (like us) and those who readily part with it. I conjectured that those who readily part with theirs would not have fared so well in the days when man had to hunt for his food. There were times when the hunter failed, and man had no food for 2 or 3 days at a time. Our sort of metabolism was better fitted to survive those times, which continued for millions of years, and ended only a couple of generations ago, when food started to become contantly plentiful. In that situation, the skinny person must have envied our greater reserves to cope, and this I reckon is part of their in-built resentment and superciliousness now! They are getting their own back after thousands of years of feeling less adequate themselves!

Just surmising, of course...

Andy
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  #78   ^
Old Mon, Feb-04-02, 13:47
jmary jmary is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 45
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 220/212.5/155
BF:
Progress: 12%
Location: Oregon in the USA and Nuneaton in the UK
Default Echo

I must agree on many levels. Because I'm tall, I "carry" my weight well. But, I don't want to carry it. It slows me down.
My dear sister is over 400 pounds. I love her to bits, but I worry about her constantly. She is 61 this month and has already had a heart attack. She takes medication, won't take her diuretic when she's at work 'cause she doesn't want to have to go up and down the stairs where the wee wee pot is! She's stubborn and infuriating, but I know it's to cover up the hurt in her heart. We had a difficult childhood. Sometimes I just want to go live with her and cook for her and care for her and help her to start walking 100yds or so every day etc. etc. She'd run me off in a minute. We do talk about it. Her husband is one of these skinny little guys who eats loads, loves his beer, but thinks nothing of walking ten miles a day, or whatever to get where he going! He doesn't drive. Anyway, she's in the UK and I'm in the USA for now. She probably loves it that way!!
I don't ever have a "tude" towards overweight people, but for me, it's my own sense of well being that motivates me. My husband loves me just as I am, although there's 75 more pounds of me than when we married.
It's health and well being I want, for me and for all the people here. OK, I sound patronizing, don't mean to. I know the difference that 50 pounds makes and the energy available to me when I'm slimmer. I love to garden, without pain; and walk without exhaustion. At 55+ the weight makes a huge difference, bones and cartellage (sp?) are wearing. I want to retain as much as I need as long as I can.
None of my feelings are an excuse for people being rude. But people are insensitive and self centred for the most part. Except everyone in this forum of course
Even if we never reach our goal, we should stay on the path, choose our responses to temptation, find a place within ourselves where we are safe from whatever, and go there when confronted.
Ok I'll shut up. This is why I annoy my sister!!!
All the best,
Jackie

Last edited by jmary : Mon, Feb-04-02 at 13:55.
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  #79   ^
Old Tue, Feb-05-02, 18:34
Cali Cali is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 83
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 160/150/112 Female 5ft 5inches
BF:
Progress: 21%
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Default

While being plump is fine, surely being very over weight or obese is unhealthy.

It's not about discrimination , it's about health.

I'm worried that this thread is turning into support for being fat, when surely we are all here because we want to lose weight?

I agree that we shouldn't lose weight to please others but for ourselves, however we could navel gaze and split hairs forever about where out self esteem originates .

Surely losing weight is about exercising restraint, not constraint. If we can gain control over our bodies, our emotions and our actions then we can act with integrity and good manners.

To quote Stephanie Dowrick:
"Restraint is not a habit. It is every time it happens, a fresh act of will, an expression of your freedom to decide for yourself. An expression of your choice to act- or not. Your choice to be true to waht you believe is important, or not. Your choice to be loving to yourself and thoughtful about the social good, or not"

The social good is significant.

I would be sorry to see this thread disintegrate into Fat people versus The Thin.
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  #80   ^
Old Tue, Feb-05-02, 19:16
Blondie28 Blondie28 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 124
 
Plan: 6 week body makeover
Stats: 225/185/190 Male 5.8
BF:
Progress: 114%
Location: Texas
Default

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cali
While being plump is fine, surely being very over weight or obese is unhealthy.

It's not about discrimination , it's about health.
<snip>

I think this thread was started as a general discussion for people to discuss how we are sometimes seen as in " the eyes of others" indicates. Just because someone thinks being obese is unhealthy, it does not justify the discrimination that some overweight/obese people are subjected to.. (yes it is about discrimination btw)

>>I'm worried that this thread is turning into support for being fat, when surely we are all here because we want to lose weight?<< <snip>

Yes we are all here not because we want to loose weight.. but because we ARE loosing weight...

Even if it were support for being fat what would be the harm in that? Support in general is just that... support.. The support I have gotten here has been wonderful and has helped me make tremendous progress. And something tells me I am not the only person who feels this way.

I get the same support at 205 that I got at 225 and I will get the same support when I am at 190 or wherever I choose to settle.



>>I would be sorry to see this thread disintegrate into Fat people versus The Thin.

Well I dont think this thread was ever in danger of that...but you seem to be taking offence to the experiences people are saying they have had... Which I don't understand.. unless you yourself are feeling guilty/or not and just defending yourself or others for berating a fat person?

Actually come to think of it... I am offended by this post as a whole... because what you really seem to be saying is that our thoughts and feelings about things that have been done/said to us because we are/were fat is NOT important? It is not about " a thin person said this " it is about " this person has hurt my feelings"

Sorry but thats just the impression I got from your post.

Best of luck
Shannon
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  #81   ^
Old Tue, Feb-05-02, 19:30
BaileyWS's Avatar
BaileyWS BaileyWS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 232
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 292/271/160
BF:
Progress: 16%
Location: Baytown, Texas
Default

Cali ... I agree with you in that we ought not let our weight become a dividing issue ... we must work that nothing becomes a dividing issue ... just because someone is thin, doesn't mean they are going to be rude; just like fatness doesn't imply sensitivity.

However, this thread is very important because more often than not, being severely overweight IS a health issue ... a genetic presupposition to store fat rather than use or eliminate the energy we consume.

It's wrong, then, to assume that a person who's fat has a character flaw (lazy, undisciplined, uncontrolled appetite) ... at least any more than you would assume that a thin person has the same flaws. It's stereotyping ... and it's wrong. Yet this is the kind of treatment so many of us have received because of our weight.

I was told once, that a church should not ordain a fat person to the ministry ... because being fat showed moral weakness (gluttony) ... I am an ordained pastor, and I was over 100 pounds "overweight." While I didn't profess to be spiritually or even morally perfect (we all make mistakes, we all fall short), I don't think my weight should be a bearing on whether or not I can be a spiritual leader. And I don't think my weight alone is a sign of spiritual impropriety.

I am overweight for a variety of reasons ... metabolism, low thyroid, PCOS, inactivity, addiction to chocolate and sugar etc. I have a goal weight listed because it's the number in the height/weight charts that fits ... but I honestly don't know if I could or really want to reach that goal ... my real goal is not a number, it's a way of life -- to be healthy, balanced, and well. To some extent, I'm already living that goal ...

To laugh at "fat jokes", to be disgusted by people who are too big to fit in airplane seats, to pass over overweight people for jobs, promotions, etc. because they don't fit an image (or a uniform) ... these things are hurtful, discriminating, and wrong.

I should be able to choose to eat a half a peice of cheesecake at a luncheon without being shamed by the colleague across the table ... I am an intelligent human being who can make reasonable decisions regarding what I eat and what I don't eat. That colleague across the table may be just as addicted to sugar, but is blessed with a metabolism which doesn't store the sugar in the hips. Does that make her any better than me?

I choose this woe because I was fed up with the fact that I was not "fit" enough to hike up a mountain in Guatemala. I am not doing this because "thin is better", I'm doing it because I was not physically able to live the life I wanted to live ... and, luckily, this woe combined with regular excersise is working for me. But I realize that I may not always be in control of these things ... that health is not guaranteed for every person ... and people with health problems should not be shamed, laughed at, disdained etc.

Ok, I'll stop now (stepping down off the soapbox)
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  #82   ^
Old Tue, Feb-05-02, 20:23
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
Default

Hi all,

Thanks for all your replies.

When I first started up this thread, I just wanted to take a light-hearted look at the way other people see us, and how we react to this. But I was very soon touched by the stories and experiences of others, and the blatant discimination they had suffered, not to mention indignity and unfair treatment.

In all of my 49 years of life, I have never found such a truly nice bunch of people as there are here. The genuine loving support reported by Blondie 28 is one of those wonderful features of this site which makes me so attached to it, and want to contribute my own little bit of help, where I can.

At the outset, I always intended to couple this thread with one that I have talked about starting for months now, which contains copies of individual posts from around this forum that we have found inspirational. My delay has come from not being able (yet) to find the 2 or 3 posts I wanted to start it off with (because they are in the long thread in the triple digits forum, and my efforts to find them have so far failed. It still remains my intention to offer this twin view of ourselves - from these experiences in this thread, and from the highly inspirational and motivativating posts of the as yet unstarted thread.

But as with children, although you may give something life, it soon becomes obvious that it has a character and direction of its own, which is what very quickly happened with this thread. It always had a vitality and forcefulness I had never envisaged, and soon went off in unforeseen directions. I am simply happy that it has stimulated thought and discussion, and I am personally very grateful for the perspective and understanding it has given me.

All views are welcome. I am delighted that another complexion has been added by Googybuzzy, which I think introduces a further perspective to things. If Cali thinks the thread has become indulgent, I respect her right to this opinion, and to state it, but it does not change mine, and I make no apologies for the posts herein. I also acknowledge the loyalty of Blondie and Wendy, and admire their eloquence as well as their support.

Maybe Susi has it right, attitudes depend on the prevailing fashion and social climate, and as she and Wa'il both pointed out, what is considered outrageously obese now was considered attractive and elegant in a bygone age. All we can strive for, I think, is to achieve our own objectives, and to satisfy our own goals. Whatever the motivation, the process of change is beneficial, and the weight we lose will be good for our health and spirits.

Continued good luck to my fellow strugglers against weight. And may we be both tolerant of each other, and helpful wherever we can.

Best wishes,

Andy
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  #83   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-02, 05:30
Cali Cali is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 83
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 160/150/112 Female 5ft 5inches
BF:
Progress: 21%
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Default

Bailey, I think you have summed up the issues beautifully, I appreciate your putting nto words which I immediately recognise as being true.
I didn't mean to be offensive, but yes I don't like wallowing in self pity. I am against discrimination of all forms. We are in a horrendous position here in Australia with Afghani refugees being treated like criminals and thrown into concentration like camps. And as for our record with the aborigines and against women and against intellectualism (cut education funding) and children and yes "larger 'people, well, I suppose we are bad as anywhere else. I hate intolerance and no doubt I am guilty of it many times , being within my culture, not without.
Yes it's good to get out our stories of discrimination on the basis of size, so we feel no, I'm not the only one.
I do think it's sad when we can't fit into a seat when there are children starving etc etc. I don't think airlines should increase the size of their seats, I think we should stop patronising MacDonalds and all the other purveyors of junk food. I don't think this is discrimination. healthier, not necessarily thinner people have healthier minds.
If you are intolerant of my views, well.....
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  #84   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-02, 08:02
Blondie28 Blondie28 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 124
 
Plan: 6 week body makeover
Stats: 225/185/190 Male 5.8
BF:
Progress: 114%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Cali
I do think it's sad when we can't fit into a seat when there are children starving etc etc. I don't think airlines should increase the size of their seats,


Well then put down your cheeseburger and send it to the starving kids if you really care so much.

You cant possibly believe that because we have heavy people in the world that they have in some way contributed to the children of the world starving....

I think unfortunetly based on what you have just said.. you too are of the mindset that fat people eat too much....

I think we should stop patronising MacDonalds and all the other purveyors of junk food. I don't think this is discrimination. healthier, not necessarily thinner people have healthier minds.
If you are intolerant of my views, well.....



I think you picked the wrong place to spew your political beliefs its obvious you have not been subjected to the kind of discrimination as others here have...This is not about a war on McDonalds...haahahahah! And something tells me you wouldn't be singing the quite so harsh song that you are if you had ever seen the other side of 200+

And has for your views on healthy people with healthy minds? I know alot of fat people with healthier minds then you........


And thats all I have to say about that.....

Shannon

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  #85   ^
Old Wed, Feb-06-02, 18:38
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
Default

Whew! OK, now let's see what I can do to bring people with equally important views to some kind of amicable understanding of each other, and about this forum.

Firstly, I think it is important for everyone to feel they are valued, and have a right to come here and express thier views.

Secondly, I have always been most impressed with members here for their ability to discuss issues which are sometimes contentious in an atmosphere of mutual respect and tolerance.

Thirdly, this is a support group, in which members come to give and receive mutual assistance for their low-carbing way of life and other LC issues. We have enough to put up with from people outside this support group, as earlier posts here clearly indicate, and it is important to keep this as one haven we can come to without the prejudices and vitriol of the outside world creeping in.

Having said that, there are a few actual points to comment upon, and I shall try to keep these as impersonal as possible.

It is a scientific fact that people who are overweight do not, in the vast majority of cases, overeat. If required, I can produce evidence that being overweight is not a result of over-indulgence, lack of willpower, gluttony, or any similar stereotype, but is in fact caused by a metabolic deficiency. Couple this with modern over-refining, and you have an all too familiar situation, hence the presence of all of us here.

I, too, feel terrible about the starving millions in the world. But I am not able to fight all the ills of the world on my own, and all I can try to do here is make a small difference to others like me who have suffered discrimination and similar experiences.

And I agree that Wendy Bailey summed things up beautifully.

It is always possible to start up a new thread. Sometimes I read posts in which it is obvious that a whole topic could be sparked off. It is always worth considering a new thread. When I started this one, I could not foresee more than half a dozen replies, and 20 or 30 views. And here we are, pushing towards 2,000 views and around 80 replies. And what about Mari (Otenn)? When she started up the now famous triple digit thread "Who has 100 pounds to lose?" did she think for one moment it would have well over 6,000 views, several hundred replies, and spawn a whole sub-forum? Did she think that until it was overtaken by Nat's journal, it would be the most viewed and popular thread on this entire site? I expect not. Being able to cause controversy with an idea or a way of expressing it is a good indication of a theme which can run and run. So, it may be that this particular thread has just about outrun its course, fulfilled its destiny, reached the end of the road, and it may be that another new and vital thread is waiting to burst forth upon the scene from one of these contentious themes (or the members posting them) which are now beginning to show themselves here.

Andy
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  #86   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-02, 09:12
Blondie28 Blondie28 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 124
 
Plan: 6 week body makeover
Stats: 225/185/190 Male 5.8
BF:
Progress: 114%
Location: Texas
Default

Andy if I could steal your signature for a moment this thread has been a wonderful read... and like you always say..

always thought provoking, if not plain ole provoking

That indeed this thread has been!

Now get going and start another equally stimulating thread haahahah!

Hugs
Shannon

PS.

Your weight loss is incredible....and I am SO happy for you... Keep it up! I know you will reach your goal!
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  #87   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-02, 17:20
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
Default

Thanks Shannon - Ill try, but I rather meant others might feel inspired to do it!

The signature line came from Victoria, as part of a post she wrote to me, describing what she felt about my presence here! I liked it and adopted it.

Your own contributions here are pretty impressive too. Now all we need is a good signature line to bestow on you...

Andy
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  #88   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-02, 22:13
BaileyWS's Avatar
BaileyWS BaileyWS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 232
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 292/271/160
BF:
Progress: 16%
Location: Baytown, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Cali
I hate intolerance and no doubt I am guilty of it many times , being within my culture, not without.


You make a very important point here ... we are all a part of our own cultures and it's very difficult to see the world from the point of view of another ... from another culture, another weight, another faith, another socio-economic group. Yet, tolerance requires just that ... to be able to see, for just a bit, how our different experiences create different sensitivies, different assumptions, etc.

This thread became the place it did, in part, because people who have been hurt by a segment of our culture needed to support each other, share stories with people who understood the hurt and pain, and maybe gain enough strength to be able to stand up against the stereotypes and discrimination.


Quote:
I do think it's sad when we can't fit into a seat when there are children starving etc etc. I don't think airlines should increase the size of their seats, I think we should stop patronising MacDonalds and all the other purveyors of junk food. I don't think this is discrimination. healthier, not necessarily thinner people have healthier minds.


OK ... here I have trouble following you ... there is really no direct correlation between people not fitting in seats in an airplane and children starving. Nor is McDonald's or McDonald's patrons the perpetrators of world hunger ... I have to admit, though, when I returned from Guatemala after spending 2 nights and three days in the mountains with a Mayan family, seing how little they needed to survive and how little they had ... I was ashamed by my relatively gluttoness lifestyle (not just what I was choosing to eat, but how much I was consuming in all areas of my life, how many THINGS I felt were necessities, and how wasteful I was of precious resources) ... I even had to think twice before following a high-protein diet (when even a little chicken for broth is a treasured comodity in Guatemala). I realized that my challenge was to eat in a way that makes me healthy, thank God I am able to afford to make this kind of decision for my own life, and my responsibility is to use the gifts I have in the most faithful way ... a challenge I am still learning to live up to.

There are lots of reasons why hunger exists in the world ... most having to do with corrupt and oppressive governments, exploitative capitalists, lack of education and land-use issues. I choose to give to organizations like Bread for the World, and I visit the hungersite ... to do my part.

And, BTW, I do think that airlines should provide larger seats and more leg-room ... ever try flying coach oversees? It's painful and unhealthy for just about everyone on the plane. People need more space especially for 14-18 hour flights!

Cali, I hope that we can all learn from each other ... welcome to the board ... I hope you can learn from those of us who have a different way of viewing the world ... and we can grow in understanding.
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  #89   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-02, 22:27
BaileyWS's Avatar
BaileyWS BaileyWS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 232
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 292/271/160
BF:
Progress: 16%
Location: Baytown, Texas
Default

Shannon, I appreciate your position. I agree that healthy attitudes is just as important as healthy bodies.

I have found over the years that arguing points is much more effective than belittling people. Hurling insults is not appropriate use of this forum which is a place where communication is encouraged, and different points of view are shared.
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  #90   ^
Old Fri, Feb-08-02, 18:09
Cali Cali is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 83
 
Plan: modified Atkins
Stats: 160/150/112 Female 5ft 5inches
BF:
Progress: 21%
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Default Caveat: We need a separate forum for this but I ned to respond to all the accusations

I was trying to imply by "children starving etc etc" all the ills of the world caused by all the things you mention Bailey. It sounds simplistic if taken at face value but I was using the phrase as a metaphor for evrything else. That we do over consume and waste things, life, unnecessarily.

Likewise, I use MacDonalds as a symbol that people within affluent Western culture can relate to as being a corporation that encourages unhealthy eating and hence life style, wastefullness, eg the zillions of junky plastic toys and packaging leading to increased landfill; greed, look at the advertising, stereotyping ; 'typical happy' families which exclude all the other choices and realities of families and living arrangements these days - gay, single, celibate etc and who harass primary school children with "MacDonald's Days" that sell junky hamburger and fries lunches to 5 year olds to raise money for schools that should be provided by more responsible, quality of education minded governments.

These are only tip of the iceberg things. I don't read propaganda, this is just what I have observed. No doubt there are corporations better and worse than Maccas but it's not the place to go into all this.

Yes I've been back and forth across the world between Italy, England and Australia in 'cattle class', which is a 24 hour flight one way. Of course it's uncomfortable, but then it's economy and considerably more so than it was 20 years ago. At least there's no smoking on board any more.

Wider seats would be nice but they are not necessary. You don't expect airlines to provide more leg room for all the very tall people, or lower head rests for all the very short people;.

Physical variables are so many, airlines provide for the average and indeed they have increased the size of seats somewhat on par with the shifting average but do you expect, or want them to provide special extra large seats for the "large/overweight/obese/metabolically challenged" people.
Certainly it would be more convenient and comfortable for both the people who need these seats and those sitting next to them, but at what cost?
And should coaches and buses and trains do the same?And resturantsand bars? What about bar stools?
Iam not discriminating against the very fat. It is just a matter of public transport and other systems doing the best they can for a diverse population.
Iknow it's not overeating and I can't see, reading my original post, how you managed to construe this. As I've said, MacDs is a symbol for all that I see as being wasteful, unhealthy overconsuming and trashy in the !st world.
Enough said.
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