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  #91   ^
Old Tue, Mar-22-05, 17:37
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
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Plan: High Fat/IF
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Location: Montreal, Quebec
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Congrats Cerebezin, that was a very thorough analysis of a complex situations. I am impressed!
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  #92   ^
Old Tue, Mar-22-05, 18:14
gotbeer's Avatar
gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Intriguing idea, Ceberezin; let me see if I'm grasping it correctly.

1. In a natural human diet, the "key resources" are fat and protein.

2. Carbohydrates are a poorer, secondary resource that is to be consumed only when the key resources are sparse. As such, the level of carbohydrate consumption also serves as a biological marker of conditions of sparse key resources.

3. Under conditions of rich key resources, ongoing individual mortality rates (from starvation, for example) are lower, and hence, there is less survival pressure for individuals to reach reproductive maturity early, and less pressure for these same individuals to expire soon after reproduction (to conserve key resources for offspring, for example). Bodies can have higher rates of metabolism, since key resources are plentiful. Bodies have little need for major long-term fat storage, since fat is plentiful, and the CHO consumption needed to make fat is minimal. Call this survival strategy 1.

4. Under conditions of sparse key resources, ongoing individual mortality rates are higher, and hence, there is more survival pressure for individuals to reach reproductive maturity early, and more pressure for these same individuals to expire soon after reproduction (to conserve key resources for offspring, for example). Bodies have lower rates of metabolism to conserve sparse key resources. Bodies also have a greater need for major long-term fat storage, since the key resource of fat is sparse. Call this survival strategy 2.

5. Insulin levels, which are strongly linked to the level of carbohydrate consumption, can be viewed as the modulator between the two survival strategies: low insulin triggers strategy one, and high insulin triggers strategy two.

6. An artificial increase in carbohydrate consumption, even when the key resources of fat and protein are plentiful, can nevertheless artificially inflate insulin levels, which in turn can cause members of the species to unnecessarily adopt a warped version of survival strategy 2, with inflated early reproduction, early expiration after reproduction, lower metabolic rates, and with massive fat stores building in their bodies despite ample fat availability in the diet.
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  #93   ^
Old Tue, Mar-22-05, 19:03
ceberezin ceberezin is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
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Yes, yes . . . that’s it!

Actually, you raise an interesting question by referring to the age of reproductive maturity. We know that that age has been steadily lowering. I had read that in 1800, the average age of menarche was 17. Now, it’s much lower. We could argue that survival strategy 2 intensified quite recently because of industrialism and the availability of refined sugar from New World plantations. Under industrial conditions, the diet switched from being merely carbohydrate-based to being refined-carbohydrate-based, as industrial methods of food processing made refined carbohydrates more readily available. Before industrialism, white bread was a delicacy reserved for the aristocracy. Interestingly, the Eades, in their paper, “Hyperinsulinemic diseases of civilization: more than just syndrome X,” identify hyperinsulinemia as a cause of early menarche.
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  #94   ^
Old Wed, Mar-23-05, 11:39
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
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Posts: 692
 
Plan: High Fat/IF
Stats: 215/170/160 Male 5 feet 10 inches
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Progress: 82%
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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Yes, the Polish Dr Kwasniewski (Optimal Nutrition author, a high fat low carb diet) refers to this principle in his books. He says that the quality of the nutrition of the population directly determines the age of sexual maturity, and the ultimate length of life.
As mentioned, carbs accelerate the whole growth/maturation process, and the aging processes too!
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  #95   ^
Old Sat, Mar-26-05, 22:38
Paleoanth's Avatar
Paleoanth Paleoanth is offline
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Plan: Vegetarian Atkins
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Progress: 50%
Location: Tennessee/Iowa
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Very nice! Just a couple of things I want to add or discuss in relation to what you have brought up. The first is a concept called the New World Syndrome:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/en...ld_Syndrome.htm

It basically explains the high levels of certain noncommunicable diseases found in Native American Indians and those of Asian descent in recent times is directly related to the Westernization of their diets including high amounts of carbs.

While early humans and our direct ancestors did switch from a primarily plant/fruit based diet compared to our closest relatives, it did not mean that plant foods were forgotten. In many cases, even in H/G populations, up to 80% of calories still come from gathered, not hunted foods. They are easier to obtain with less risk as many of the animals hunted require massive amounts of cooperation and energy expenditure. Their lower lifespans have more to do with lack of medical care and accidents, than diet. We are evolved to be dietary generalists, and that includes both plants and meats. Why else retain a large, fully functioning pancreas? It isn't like the appendix, which is the evolutionary left over of the extended cecum from our plant only days. However, I will grant you that with things like the New World Syndrome, our current dietary choices are crappy and leads to bad things.

The lowering of the age at which females enter menarche is also directly related to the amount of body fat. I am not sure about the hyperinsulinemia, but body fat must be 18% before menarche can begin. We are getting there at earlier and earlier ages due to lack of excersize and, again, our crappy diets. Some researchers say it is due to better medical care and better diets. There are always debates. Does the amout of insulin we pump into our bodies affect this? Probably. Our current diet is incredibly unbalanced with the high fat COMBINED with carbs that have little or no nutrional value. As we know, that causes weight problems that leads to earlier menarche and probably earlier menopause. Although, there are some studies, that say it is leptin levels that are the real problem.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/searc...000001/art00007

http://humupd.oupjournals.org/cgi/reprint/7/3/287.pdf
But in opposition:
http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/cont...schild;64/3/383

Last edited by Paleoanth : Sat, Mar-26-05 at 22:58.
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  #96   ^
Old Sun, Mar-27-05, 06:26
bluesmoke bluesmoke is offline
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"In many cases, even in H/G populations, up to 80% of calories still come from gathered, not hunted foods."
Paleoanth, if you have facts to back this up, I would very much like to see them, as my reading/research does not support anything like this level of plant foods in historical or current hunter-gatherer populations. Nyah Levi
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  #97   ^
Old Sun, Mar-27-05, 07:29
Paleoanth's Avatar
Paleoanth Paleoanth is offline
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Plan: Vegetarian Atkins
Stats: 165/145/125 Female 60 inches
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Location: Tennessee/Iowa
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I'll see if I can find it. I just remember that from my cultural anthropology classes.
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  #98   ^
Old Sun, Mar-27-05, 08:13
Paleoanth's Avatar
Paleoanth Paleoanth is offline
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Plan: Vegetarian Atkins
Stats: 165/145/125 Female 60 inches
BF:29/25.2/24
Progress: 50%
Location: Tennessee/Iowa
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OK, I see where you are getting your information-probably from Cordain, et al. There seems to be some dissention in the recent literature about how much recent hunter-gatherers can really be used as an analogy for our ancestral diets and how much plant based foods make up ancestral and some H-G diets. Having debate in human evolution is not abnormal-in fact, we argue about everything, The 80% figure i tossed out based upon my recall of class is too high, but there are some papers that still put the contribution fairly high. Just a couple of articles to show you the debate on the plant side.

K Milton, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/665

Hunter-gatherer societies in other environments were doubtless eating very different diets, depending on the season and types of resources available. Hayden (3) stated that hunter-gatherers such as the !Kung might live in conditions close to the "ideal" hunting and gathering environment. What do the !Kung eat? Animal foods are estimated to contribute 33% and plant foods 67% of their daily energy intakes (1). Fifty percent (by wt) of their plant-based diet comes from the mongongo nut, which is available throughout the year in massive quantities (1). Similarly, the hunter-gatherer Hazda of Tanzania consume "the bulk of their diet" as wild plants, although they live in an area with an exceptional abundance of game animals and refer to themselves as hunters (18). In the average collecting area of an Aka Pygmy group in the African rain forest, the permanent wild tuber biomass is >4545 kg (>5 tons) (19).


The council on nutrition, which is not a peer reviewed article, but has a synthesis of studies presented. Since it is in pdf, I cannot copy and paste. I am sorry. But one of their points, that I agree with is that percentage of plant to animal based foods depends on geography, climate and season of the year. Trying to come up with a generalized diet that all humans ate is almost impossible once we left Africa and spread out over Europe and Asia almost 2 million years ago.

http://www.councilonnutrition.com/store/ancestor.pdf

From http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icae...in/conklin.html
HOMINID NUTRITIONAL ECOLOGY

As a prerequisite to considering the Australopithecus diet, we will briefly discuss hunter-gatherer diets, modern but traditional human diets, and the minimum nutrient requirements of humans.

Modern humans do not have high protein or fat requirements, as already mentioned. The value of 9.5% CP in the chimpanzee diet in our study is consistent with the prediction by Oftedal (1990) that all primates should have relatively low protein requirements because they have slow growth rates compared to other mammals (Case, 1978). Although a need for protein or fat is often assumed to explain increasing amounts of hunting throughout hominid evolution, primates do not have metabolic demands for high levels of protein or fat.

Eaton et al. (1988) proposed an ancient hunter-gatherer diet in the book The Paleolithic Prescription. We can now evaluate their hypothetical diet in the light of what we have just learned about the chimpanzee diet and with what is known of modern human nutrient needs. The hunter-gatherer diet Eaton et al. proposed contained 35% meat and 65% (wild) plant foods. Table 3 presents the results of the Paleolithic Prescription model diet, with some additional calculations:



Table 3. Attached below

The format of the third column, % of total grams consumed, is comparable to the way we have been reporting the chimpanzee diet. The protein intake is almost 4.5 times higher than required by humans, so we can not make meaningful comparisons there. The fat intake is also high compared to the chimpanzee diet and to that required by humans, even though the authors used nutrient values from wild game meat instead of domestic meat, so the fat intake is moderate compared to a modern human diet.

The fiber content is the interesting point for comparison. The content is about half of that in the chimpanzee diet. This results from 35% of the plant component being replaced by meat, in effect diluting the fiber content of the diet. We have seen that a wild herbivore diet, such as the chimpanzee in Kibale Forest, is high in fiber because wild foods are high in fiber (Table 1). In order to dilute that fiber level further, a new source of food must be found that is low in fiber. Meat is guaranteed to reduce the fiber content of a diet considerably and to be fairly easily digested.

Nevertheless, because wild vegetation is high in fiber, the Paleolithic hunter-gatherer diet was still assumed to contain 150 g of fiber from its 65% plant component, a huge intake by modern standards. Westernized diets normally include only 10-20 g of fiber per day (Johnson and Marlett, 1986; Georgiou and Arquitt, 1992), although the National Cancer Institute recommends 35 g (Bourquin et al., 1996). Consequently, it is useful to consider a traditional, nonwesternized modern diet from Zaire where the only domesticated component of the diet is cassava, a tuber very low in fiber (Pagezy, 1990). The rest of the diet is wild, either game or wild plant food (Table 4).



And of course, Neandertals ate meat like crazy and were very effective hunters, with almost no plant foods in their diet, at least in Europe. I haven't looked at what they ate in the Middle East.
Attached Files
File Type: txt Table 3.txt (498 Bytes, 4 views)

Last edited by Paleoanth : Sun, Mar-27-05 at 08:24.
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  #99   ^
Old Mon, Mar-28-05, 17:10
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acohn acohn is offline
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Default Xenoestrogens' role in early menarche

Back in '96, I read "Our Stolen Future," by WWF scientist Theo Colborne. It was a scientific detective story that led to the conclusion that industrialized societies were dumping huge of amount of estrogen-mimicking compounds into the environment. Things haven't gotten better since then.

Could these xenoestrogens also play a role in the decreasing age of menarche?
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  #100   ^
Old Fri, Apr-08-05, 19:15
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zedgirl zedgirl is offline
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Plan: Carb'n negative + IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paleoanth



These few paragraphs sum up well why low-carbing makes so much sense. (bold is mine)

99 percent of our genetic heritage dates from before our biological ancestors evolved into Homo sapiens about 40,000 years ago, and 99.99 percent of our genes were formed before the development of agriculture about 10,000 years ago.

According to Eaton, the many dietary changes over the past 10,000 years have outpaced our ability to genetically adapt to them. "That the vast majority of our genes are ancient in origin means that nearly all of our biochemistry and physiology are fine-tuned to conditions of life that existed before 10,000 years ago," he says. 5

To put this into another perspective, 100,000 generations of people were hunter-gatherers, 500 generations have depended on agriculture, 10 generations have lived since the start of the industrial age, and only two generations have grown up with highly processed fast foods. "The problem is that our genes don't know it," Eaton points out. "They are programming us today in much the same way they have been programming humans for at least 40,000 years. Genetically, our bodies now are virtually the same as they were then." 6
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