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  #91   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 00:05
yo-yo man's Avatar
yo-yo man yo-yo man is offline
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Posts: 35
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 245/235/170 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress: 13%
Location: Aschaffenburg , Germany
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Veggies are a must...Water is a must...niuDog is right..it is the ONLY way!!!
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  #92   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 06:06
Gee1's Avatar
Gee1 Gee1 is offline
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Posts: 41
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 181/181/143 Female 174cm
BF:
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Location: London,UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Only contaminated meats have bacteria that can kill you, just like contaminated vegetables have bacteria that can kill you..


Generaly, bacteria will be ON the fruit and veg,which you will obviously wash prior to eating. But once the bacteria is in meat, that's it. Which is why you have to cook meat toprevent any desease, apart from MadCowDs and perhaps some worms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
I have read numerous health articles that say that vegetables must be throughly washed before eating to remove bacteria and pesticide residue. .


OBVIOUSLY! isnt that something that all mothers teach kids when they are 3 ??? Washing anything you put in your mouth is obviously of the upmost improtance especially something that has been living outside, and outside is hardly clean! I assumed washing veggies (as well as one would hands) is pretty obvious???!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Mad cow disease is extremly rare. More people die from eating poisonous mushrooms each year than from mad cow. .


That is completely different. Its like comparing laptops and Volvo's.Nothing to do with each other. Poisonous mashrooms are poisonous by nature,NOT becuase someone has put the poison in them,or becuase they have been infected by some bacteria. People who collect the mashrooms for human use SHOULD know better. I know that,it was my grandfathers job. Mad cow desease is caused by a germ,and it can be easily prevented by cow vaccination, which for some extremely odd reason British goverment has refused to do in the past, hence the last outbreak few yrs ago!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Yes, meats have more saturated fats than most vegetables, but what does that have to do with what was being discussed? .


How is it not? We are discussing why vegetables are important, a must ,and a healthier option then meat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Vegetables contain no vitamin B12. That vitamin only comes from meat sources..


Agreed.I missed that one. But you can easily eat diary products to make up for it, without the need to eat meat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Whether vegetables are tastier than meats is a personal preference. In my experience, most childern do not like to eat vegetables, but readily eat meat. .


I think that's becuase we are forcing them to eat vegetables and not forcing them to eat meat. Kids are resentfull by nature. Also in many countries people simply boil or steam vegetables which then tastes like yukky water. If you want your kidsto eat veggies, make them tasty. Put some lemon on salads. Make veggie casseroles with some meat. Eastern Europian cuisine is full of amazingly tastefull vegetable casseroles and dishes, which may or may not contain meat,especially as meat is hugely expensive over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Cooking meats, just like cooking vegetables can make some nutrients more absorbable..


Like what? I can;t see anything in veggies needing to be cooked,to be easier to absorb. In fact fibre is reccomended. I could be wrong, so welcome more input on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
There is no problem with bacteria in meat, unless it has been contaminated. Just like there is no problem with bacteria in vegetables, unless they have been contaminated. The contamination comes from the food handling/processing system and is due to human mistakes, not due to an intrinsic property of the meat or vegetable. Not all meat is contaminated, just like not all vegetables are contaminated..


I completely agree. It would be nicein ideal world where people wash hands before touching food,or store slaughtered animals in adequate conditions.But we both know many dont.In fact I refuse to eat in restaurant,cos most men do notwash their hands after going to the loo, and simply continue cooking with them.

So the fact of the life is , most veggies you can wash'n'go. Most meat you can;t be sure even if you yourself bread and slaughtered the animal to eat. Which is why we MUST cook meat, while we can get away with just washing veggies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
I think that previous posts have put the rest the vitamin C controversy, but as a counter two words to you: vitamin B12.


Fair enough
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  #93   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 06:27
Gee1's Avatar
Gee1 Gee1 is offline
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Posts: 41
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 181/181/143 Female 174cm
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: London,UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
Not true, Gee. Salad bars are a common source of food poisoning (often the lettuce or mushrooms are the culprit). E Coli can be present on vegetables as well as on meat and vegetables are often treated with pesticides and can harbor parasites as well. Unwashed raw veggies are not as benign as you think, so if you're going to eat your veggies raw, best to wash them first. ...?


First of all,washing veggies is OBVIOUS and something mothers teach children form the age of 3, just the same way as that we need to wash our hands, NOBODY suggested you shouldn;t wash them, so I dont know how you got that.Eating them RAW doesn;t mean eating them unwshed, it just means uncooked. I assumed everybody knows about why we wash hands, dishes and veggies/fruit, its pretty obvious to me, which is why I didnt think I needed to even mention that!

As for the salad bars, like I said in a previous answer to other poster, I never eat in restaurants because I dont trust the stuff to wash their hands and utilities as well as food,before they give it to us to eat. So those germsare morelikely to have come from another human working there adn hasn;t washedhands after going to toilet.But also it could be that they havent; washed the food/dishes/or even left it in salad bar for too long.Also salad barsarethe worst becuase people in a restaurant breath all sorts ofgermson them,caugh at themand sneeze at them.I wouldn;t touch saladbar with a barge poll.Butdon;t blamethe veggies for it.Blame the humans.

So technically yes, you can get germs from OUTSIDE the veggies/fruit, so unless you by some miracle didnt know that already, you MUST wash them before use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
Improperly canned vegetables can contain Clostridium Botulinum (botulism), which can be deadly....?


That's correct, so never buy any cans that have been damaged in any way or have a top raised.Still doesn;t mean its perfectly safe, but its less likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
Sweet fruits are limited, but the non-sweet fruits such as olives, avocados, peppers, cucumbers and tomatoes are allowed even during induction.


Peppers, cucumbers and tomatoes ARE vegetables, NOT fruits, although a very few countries list them officially as fruits,( but then eat them like vegetables). Go figure. Olives and avocados ARE limited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
And the problem with saturated fats (on a low carb plan) would be...?


Just becuase we are allowed to eat fat, it deosn;t meat we can eat AS MUCH FAT as we want, and that we shouldn;t replace some bad fat with good fat, IE Corn oil with Olive oil, red meat with fish. You will still get enough of saturated fat in you from all other meat, butter veggie oil and cheese. But only nuts,fish and olives contain good fat.
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  #94   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 07:42
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
OOOOOOOOOH YEAH!
Posts: 692
 
Plan: High Fat/IF
Stats: 215/170/160 Male 5 feet 10 inches
BF:27%/12%/8%
Progress: 82%
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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« But only nuts,fish and olives contain good fat.»

Thanks for the laugh, buddy!
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  #95   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 07:58
TheCaveman's Avatar
TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: Angry Paleo
Stats: 375/205/180 Male 6'3"
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Sacramento, CA
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I was going to respond to the wild and inaccurate statements in this post until:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gee1
Kids are resentfull by nature.


Woof. Disrespecting an entire class of people to prove a dietary point is too damn mean for my blood.
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  #96   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 08:07
Gee1's Avatar
Gee1 Gee1 is offline
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Posts: 41
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 181/181/143 Female 174cm
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Progress: 0%
Location: London,UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBoneMitch
« But only nuts,fish and olives contain good fat.»

Thanks for the laugh, buddy!


If you think that'sfunny then clearly you are not educated much on good(Unsaturated) vs bad(saturated) fat, so here:

from: http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/2097.html website):

"The "good fat/bad fat" refers to fat's potential to cause disease. All fats have the same amount of calories, but their chemical compositions vary. Fats are made of chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. The saturation refers to whether all the available spaces on the carbon atoms are bonded to hydrogen atoms, or if there are any hydrogen atoms missing. The three forms of fat found in nature are:

Saturated Fats These fats have all of their carbon atoms filled with or saturated with hydrogen. Saturated fat is primarily found in high fat cuts of meat, poultry with the skin, whole and 2 percent dairy products, butter, cheese, and tropical oils: coconut, palm, and palm kernel. An eating plan high in saturated fat can cause a person's bad cholesterol (LDL) to rise. The risk of developing certain types of cancer may be associated with a high intake of saturated fat.

Monounsaturated Fats
These fats have one space missing a hydrogen atom, instead containing a double bond between carbon atoms. Monounsaturated fat is found in olive oil, canola oil, peanut oil, and in most nuts and nut butters. This type of fat does not cause cholesterol to increase. When a person substitutes monounsaturated fat for saturated fat, it helps to lower the bad cholesterol, and protects the good cholesterol (HDL) from going down.

Polyunsaturated Fats
These fats have more than one space missing in the carbon chain, and contain more than one double bond as a result. Two major categories of polyunsaturated fats are Omega-3 and Omega-6 fatty acids. Omega-3 means there is a double bond in the third space from the end of the carbon chain. These fats are extremely healthful in that they protect against sudden death from heart attack. They also can help a person lower his or her triglycerides. Omega-3s are used by the body to produce hormone-like substances with anti-inflammatory effects. The best sources of Omega-3s are fatty fish, such as salmon, sardines, mackerel, herring, and rainbow trout, among others. Canola oil, walnuts, and flaxseed also contain some. Omega-6 fats have a double bond in the sixth space from the end of the carbon chain. These fats are found in oils such as corn, soybean, cottonseed, sunflower, and safflower. Omega-6 fatty acids are incorporated into hormone-like substances that promote inflammation. If one replaces saturated fats with Omega-6 fats, their total, bad, and good cholesterol levels may go down. Many health experts suggest that the ratio of Omega 6:Omega 3 fatty acids needs to be 4:1 for optimal health. (Most Americans get 14 - 20:1 — a lot more than needed!) Omega-3 and Omega-6 fats are not listed separately on the food label.

The other type of fat that is found in food, but isn't natural, is:

Hydrogenated Fats (also known as Trans-Fats)
These are manufactured fats. They occur when hydrogen is added to a polyunsaturated fat to make it a solid at room temperature. However, instead of having the qualities of a polyunsaturated fat, it takes on the traits of a saturated fat. Hydrogenated fats are found in many brands of margarine, and in vegetable shortening. A clue in determining a less healthy fat is when it is hard at room temperature; for example, stick margarine has more trans-fats than softer tub margarine. Now some companies are making "trans-fat" free margarine products. Beware of snack items, such as crackers, cookies, and chips — many contain hydrogenated fats because they allow for a longer shelf life than butter or other fats would. Currently, hydrogenated or trans fats are not listed separately in the Nutrition Facts section of the food label. You need to read the ingredient section to find them.

Although too much can have negative results, fats are certainly required for good health. The positives — fats:

carry flavors
impart desirable textures — smooth, creamy, and crispy, to name a few
give us a sense of fullness and satisfy hunger
are needed to absorb certain vitamins and plant chemicals
can contribute to one's enjoyment of food "

You are welcome.
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  #97   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 08:24
Gee1's Avatar
Gee1 Gee1 is offline
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Posts: 41
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 181/181/143 Female 174cm
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: London,UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
I was going to respond to the wild and inaccurate statements in this post until:.


I dont see you proving me wrong anywhere.Or are you trying to say that me advising on washing hands is "inaccurate"? Or my statement that EVERYBODY should know this from the age of 3? Which part is Wild and inaccurate exactly? <sigh> I dispair!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
Woof. Disrespecting an entire class of people to prove a dietary point is too damn mean for my blood.


Im sure your kids do EVERYTHING you order them to do. But of course. AS IF!!!!!!!

It just goes to show how much you know about kids. Whenever you force kids to do anything they will rebel. Its soooo obviously not a disrespect, its a fact of life. you were like that, I was likethat, all the kids are like that. All kids WILL say NO to their parents sooner or later when ordered to do something.In addition, as a mother,and a nanny,with a pediatric nurse qualification, I definitly know better then you. Again, its not a discrespect, its a fact of life.

Finally, my statement about the kids was completely relative to his comment about "most kids don;t like to eat vegetables" so me explaining why kids dont; like to eat veggies is highly relevant! But your suggestion that I said this to "prove some dietary point" is ridiculous!

How about you read the statements and answer in full before you make some illogical and offensive comments in the future.
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  #98   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 09:15
mio1996's Avatar
mio1996 mio1996 is offline
Glutton for Grease!
Posts: 1,338
 
Plan: Primal-VLC
Stats: 295/190/190 Male 76
BF:don't/really/care
Progress: 100%
Location: Clemson, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gee1
Peppers, cucumbers and tomatoes ARE vegetables, NOT fruits, although a very few countries list them officially as fruits...


Actually they are the reproductive organs of plants and are botanically classified as fruits.
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  #99   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 09:32
TheCaveman's Avatar
TheCaveman TheCaveman is offline
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Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: Angry Paleo
Stats: 375/205/180 Male 6'3"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mio1996
Actually they are the reproductive organs of plants


Oh yum.

Mio, I wish you would come up with a definition of pasta that turns me off as much as your definition of fruit! Heh.
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  #100   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 09:44
Gee1's Avatar
Gee1 Gee1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 181/181/143 Female 174cm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mio1996
Actually they are the reproductive organs of plants and are botanically classified as fruits.


Botanically yes, I suppose, they all are but then so are the beans and peas, (and nuts as well)! But becuase we USE them for purposes the vegetables are traditionally used, many countries classify them OFFICIALLY as vegetables and kids in schools are thought so. So I guess teh corect answer would be that neither is wrong, and both are

I read the interesting subject about it here:
http://www.cookinglouisiana.com/Art...eg-or-Fruit.htm

where in 1883 "fruit importers sued New York customs to recover duties "paid under protest" on the import of tomatoes from the West Indies. At the time, vegetables required a 10 percent tariff. Fruits were imported duty-free. In other words Nix said tomatoes were fruit and Hedden said they're vegetables.The court case proceeded and...well read the rest to see who wins
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  #101   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 09:48
grandpa grandpa is offline
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Posts: 315
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 240/200/170 Male 68 in
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: Oklahoma
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Need something else to worry about at a food / salad bar? How about keeping a untensil handles in a warm moist place with a lot of nutrients nearby and having the public handle them before you do. Now go back to your table and eat anything with your hands. Its a cross contamination dream. I just figure we can never live in a sterile world, and I'll take my chances and hope that "what doesn't kill me will make me stronger."

I second MIO1996, the reproductive part of the plant is fruit. Structure is a vegetable. But... Here is a trick trivia question though: What is a strawberry?
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  #102   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 09:48
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
That is completely different. Its like comparing laptops and Volvo's.Nothing to do with each other. Poisonous mashrooms are poisonous by nature,NOT becuase someone has put the poison in them,or becuase they have been infected by some bacteria. People who collect the mashrooms for human use SHOULD know better. I know that,it was my grandfathers job. Mad cow desease is caused by a germ,and it can be easily prevented by cow vaccination, which for some extremely odd reason British goverment has refused to do in the past, hence the last outbreak few yrs ago!


Yikes!

Mad cow cannot be prevented by vaccinations. It isn't a germ. It's a protein called a prion. Have you ever heard of cannabalism disease called Kuru? Basically cannibals would get the disease after eating other people infected with it. Same thing as Mad Cow. The practice of grinding up dead animals and making feed out of them to feed living animals spread the disease. Sheep get a form called scrappies. Probably all mammals get it arising spontaneously but very rarely and generally it wouldn't be spread between animals, except when one animal eats another. Even then, its most likely to be spread when the brain is eaten and not as likely from the muscles. Do a Goggle search on "prion disease" if you want to learn about it. Its scary, but fortunately it is pretty rare since agricultural practices are getting cleaned up.

A lot of people from other countries die of mushroom poisoning in my area because there's a fungus here that looks just like an edible fungus in Asia. Only here it is poisonous.

Quote:
What is a strawberry?
It's a berry! Which would be classified as a fruit, its full of seeds. What's the mystery with that?

I always wondered though where root crops fit in? Plants *CAN* reproduce from their roots and many do.
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  #103   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 10:02
mio1996's Avatar
mio1996 mio1996 is offline
Glutton for Grease!
Posts: 1,338
 
Plan: Primal-VLC
Stats: 295/190/190 Male 76
BF:don't/really/care
Progress: 100%
Location: Clemson, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCaveman
Oh yum.

Mio, I wish you would come up with a definition of pasta that turns me off as much as your definition of fruit! Heh.


LOL yes that sounds pretty bad, huh? Being told to eat them could sound pretty mean

I wish I could find such a definition for cookies and cake. I tell myself they are simpy poison, but that doesn't always work.
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  #104   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 10:28
Gee1's Avatar
Gee1 Gee1 is offline
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Posts: 41
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 181/181/143 Female 174cm
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Location: London,UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Mad cow cannot be prevented by vaccinations. It isn't a germ. It's a protein called a prion. .


Oh God, you are right! Ma bad. I had Foot and Mouth in my head while I was writing the above comment, so when you sent reply, I was like "what does she mean", then I realised I';ve been thinking and talking about Foot and mouth desease, not Mad cow desease! So yeah, you are perfectly right, thatnk for correcting me here, my comment only applies to Foot and Mouth desease which is caused by virus called Coxsackievirus and which can be prevented, unlike Madcow caused by Prions like you said. So my apologies!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
A lot of people from other countries die of mushroom poisoning in my area because there's a fungus here that looks just like an edible fungus in Asia. Only here it is poisonous.


I know ,I rememebr when I was on a dialisis ward one time and they brough this lil kid of about 5-6 yrs old, and he poisoned himself by eating some poisonous mashrooms in local wooded area. His kidneys failed and he had to have dialises fo the rest of his life, all thanks to that mashroom poison. Yes lots of mashrooms look alike to us, but they are not to be messed with, which is why picking up the mashrooms is best left to pros!
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  #105   ^
Old Thu, Jan-13-05, 14:15
AndreaBash's Avatar
AndreaBash AndreaBash is offline
I beat you, Tanita!
Posts: 582
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 174/130/130 Female 5'2"
BF:13% lower now...
Progress: 100%
Location: Janesville, WI
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Quote:
Im sure your kids do EVERYTHING you order them to do. But of course. AS IF!!!!!!!

It just goes to show how much you know about kids. Whenever you force kids to do anything they will rebel.


My child started trying all the different fruits and vegetables around 6 months. Even then he was fully capable of telling me he did not enjoy vegetables.

The idea that kids decide not to like vegetables because they are just snotty brats who won't do anything we tell them is just plain silly. Kids aren't even CAPABLE of being resentful at 6 months and it's scary you would think they are.

Yikes. That's all I have to say about THAT!
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