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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Aug-19-04, 17:44
PurpleBass's Avatar
PurpleBass PurpleBass is offline
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Posts: 248
 
Plan: Primal
Stats: 173/135/132 Female 160 cm
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: Torrance, CA, USA
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It is an interesting point, what do you do if you live very far north (or south) and the length of the day varies widely? (I always sort of suspected human beings were never meant to live in Scotland!) This summer we've been away a lot, and when we're home, my husband now finds it impossible to sleep past about 5AM because there's too much daylight - and it does NOT improve his disposition any!

BTW I just have to say I love the cavepeople forum. Over on the Atkins board everyone always seems to want to talk about cheating, or why they're not losing weight fast enough, or the latest weird chemicals. I think I like the conversation here a lot better!
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Aug-19-04, 19:08
TwilightZ's Avatar
TwilightZ TwilightZ is offline
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Posts: 359
 
Plan: meat and meat by-products
Stats: 270/191/150 Male 5' 11"
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Progress: 66%
Location: TwilightZone (Phila, PA)
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Welcome Daylily!

I have a lot of the same questions you do, and no answers. I intend to write to TS Wiley and ask her much of what you asked. BTW, regarding the authors, my suspicion is that Wiley is that actual author and champion of these ideas and that Bent Formby is a PhD who, no doubt, regards her information to be correct, but serves more as the official scientific figurehead to provide a stamp of legitimacy, if you know what I mean.

Now as to some of what you related:

Quote:
When I started going to bed at 9 pm, a lot of times I would just lie there, wide awake. Somehow, the act of going to bed and turning off the lights caused my brain to wake up. I would eventually fall asleep though, and before the previously usual time. (previously usual?)


I also had difficulty going to bed this early. I would read in bed and end up turning out the light at 10. Even then I would often lay awake. But, I was still able to get up earlier and felt more refreshed.

Quote:
A sort of corollary idea to Lights Out is that we also need lots of natural sunlight, and for those of us visually impaired to take off our glasses/contacts for at least a few minutes so we get the light in our eyes without lenses. Maybe spending more time outdoors is needed for us to really sleep well.


Agree with you 100% on this and I find that when I've spent time outdoors I sleep better at night. I, too, tend to spend too much time indoors. Like now.

As to how my family has adjusted, we really have it easy. It's just my wife and me and cat, and my wife gets up so early that she has to go to sleep at 9 or 9:30. We put up dark curtains and I made a little flip up/down cardboard flap that covers the digital clocks. I imagine it's hard with a family. [BTW I am a supporter of homeschooling].

There are some inconsistencies in the book, some things I don't agree with entirely, but her basic premise about the role light plays in health I believe is correct. Also her discussions about cortisol and exercise are fascinating.


Howard

Last edited by TwilightZ : Thu, Aug-19-04 at 19:13.
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  #18   ^
Old Fri, Aug-20-04, 09:36
daylily's Avatar
daylily daylily is offline
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Posts: 20
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 300/226/150 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 49%
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
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Hi, TwilightZ!

Thanks for the welcome - I'm glad to be here.

What you say about authorship of book makes sense to me. She's also written one about menopause (Sex, Lies, and Menopause) which is on my list to read. I am 52 and just started menopause with a bang this year. A friend who read it already told me Wiley believes we should not have menopause, that it is unnatural, animals don't cease to be capable of reproduction so we shouldn't either. Hmmm. I think the cavewomen were like us in this respect, and didn't take any hormones for it either.

I really agree with you that Lights Out has a lot of inconsistencies, but that the main point about light/darkness and health is valid. I liked the insights on exercise too.

It is kind of funny to think of us would-be cave people, knowing we need to spend lots of time outdoors, and sitting here typing to each other on our computers in the nice cozy house.

Yesterday's For Better Or For Worse comic addressed this issue. The 20-something woman is talking about her plan to teach in the far north, to encounter another culture, to live in a primitive way, get in touch with history and the wilderness. Her boyfriend's face falls - please keep in touch. Oh, I'll email you, she replies.

I hope you do write to Wiley - I would love to hear more from her on this topic.

Purple Bass - you're probably right about people not being meant to live in Scotland (or other high latitude places). Maybe we are evolved for a low latitude day/night pattern and we haven't been in the far north/south long enough for a biological adjustment. My grandmother grew up in a peasant culture in Lithuania and talked about the very long work days in summer - from sunup to sundown.

Hey, all you cave people who liked Lights Out - let's do it together. This is the perfect time to start planning - to get our room darkening shades, figure out how to cover our light-up devices, prepare our families, and generally get excited about trying out this idea. This is one of those things that is so out of the mainstream that a support group is really needed - and here we are.

This is hello and farewell for a while from me. We leave on vaction tomorrow morning, so I may check in later today, but I'll be gone 'til after Labor Day.

So long, cave folks, have a good rest-of-August.

Daylily
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  #19   ^
Old Fri, Aug-20-04, 10:04
Grimalkin's Avatar
Grimalkin Grimalkin is offline
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Posts: 741
 
Plan: PP
Stats: 160/149/125 Female 66 in.
BF:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daylily
Purple Bass - you're probably right about people not being meant to live in Scotland (or other high latitude places). Maybe we are evolved for a low latitude day/night pattern and we haven't been in the far north/south long enough for a biological adjustment.


I'm no paleontologist, but haven't most of the earliest human remains been found in places close to equatorial regions, like central Africa?

I've lived near the equator, and I remember how comfortable it was to go to bed around 9pm (well after dark) and wake up around 5 to see the sunrise...

Purplebass, I agree that the discussions here are far more *interesting* than most of the topics on the Atkins board, but I think the whole Paleo approach involves a quite different (and more scientific IMHO) mindset.
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  #20   ^
Old Fri, Aug-20-04, 11:16
JenofWi's Avatar
JenofWi JenofWi is offline
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Plan: pp
Stats: 167.6/164/140 Female 5 ft 6 in
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Hi.
Daylily, we homeschool too. Our kids are 7 and 4. We're very unstructured.
We usually go to bed at 9 - 9:30. But any earlier and my whole family would mutiny.
I plan to get new shades when we move - which should be soon.
We got rid of our alarm clock. We never used it as an alarm, just as a clock to look at when we couldn't sleep. My husband uses a little battery operated alarm that puts off no light. That part was easy for us.
You could throw a towel over your clock at night, cover it with duct tape or stick it under your bed. (I'm always looking for the low tech answer!)
I used to have major sleeping problems before this diet change. Once I switched to low carb eating, my sleeping got so much better.
I remember in the book Wiley wrote In the winter get as much sleep as you can without getting divorced or fired. I htought that was pretty funny.
I would love to hear how the writers live. What a great idea.
TwlightZ, tell Wiley I say Hi.
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, Aug-20-04, 13:57
PurpleBass's Avatar
PurpleBass PurpleBass is offline
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Posts: 248
 
Plan: Primal
Stats: 173/135/132 Female 160 cm
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: Torrance, CA, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daylily
...[book] about menopause (Sex, Lies, and Menopause) which is on my list to read. I am 52 and just started menopause with a bang this year. A friend who read it already told me Wiley believes we should not have menopause, that it is unnatural, animals don't cease to be capable of reproduction so we shouldn't either. Hmmm. I think the cavewomen were like us in this respect, and didn't take any hormones for it either.

Daylily


Hi Daylily - I'm not so sure about the menopause thing, I remember reading somewhere that female lions also go through something like it. (A Google search for "lion menopause" turned up a few amusing hits, including "Menopause the Musical"... ?! ).

Evolutionarily, it seems that females of most mammal species, including humans, have menopause for one reason: so we can finish raising the last of our young to maturity before we fall apart and die. Cheery, no?

I definitely agree about the hormones though. That seems very much a case of modern doctors deciding to mess about with something we don't truly understand. (For once I'm glad to be a little bit younger, and let all the baby boomers go first...)
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  #22   ^
Old Tue, Sep-14-04, 11:07
daylily's Avatar
daylily daylily is offline
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Posts: 20
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 300/226/150 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 49%
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
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HI, everyone,

I've started my Lights Out plan for this winter. I've been going to bed at 9:30 for almost a week. (I did stay up later last night due to Mom's Night Out) It's going well for me - I've been falling asleep quickly and staying in bed until 7 am, though I generally wake up about an hour earlier. This isn't quite to Wiley's recommendation of 9.5 hours of sleep, but it's a start. Haven't got the room darkening shades yet, so the bedroom is not dark enough.

I've started to read "Sex, Lies, and Menopause." She strongly recommends bio-identical hormones. Purple Bass - I really liked hearing about the value of menopause in nature - to have time to raise the youngest child before dying. It makes real sense. I will keep this idea in mind as I read SLM. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but I must say this is causing me to question her conclusions in Lights Out as well. So far, what I've got from SLM is that hormones keep us in harmony with the universe and nature hates it when our reproductive hormone levels go down after menopause, so replacement is needed.

It seems to me that there's still a lot of hormone action in our bodies, even after reproduction shuts down. Plus, the idea that we need a non-reproductive time to contine to raise our children without adding more gives a real Mother-Nature-approved value to post menopausal life.

Yeah, we baby boomers are a great guinea pig generation, lol.

Who else is going to bed earlier?

Alice
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  #23   ^
Old Tue, Sep-14-04, 18:30
MichaelG MichaelG is offline
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Posts: 266
 
Plan: paleo
Stats: 209/189/176 Male 186cm
BF:
Progress: 61%
Location: Bribie Island, Australia
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Here in Queensland's sub tropics on average (we're a big State so it varies) in summer, dawn is about 5 and sunset about 7, with the opposite in Winter). Further south there is a much greater variety and in Tasmania they have British type daylight hours.
The southern states have had daylight saving in the summer but this has always been rejected in Queensland as it would mean sunsets about 8 pm, which would be very strange for us!

It is still common for older Queenslanders to get up at 4.30 and retire at 9.00. Even 20 years ago TV here used to finish at 10 o'clock with the national anthem!

Now there's a lot more nocturnal activity, and I don't think any research has been done on whether this has affected people at all. We even have late night news on TV, and it's 24 hours programming. There's been a huge rise in asthma and Attention Deficit Disorder in kids, but who knows - diet, chemicals, ...

Michael
Australia
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  #24   ^
Old Tue, Sep-14-04, 18:35
MichaelG MichaelG is offline
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Posts: 266
 
Plan: paleo
Stats: 209/189/176 Male 186cm
BF:
Progress: 61%
Location: Bribie Island, Australia
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me again. How's this for cute..
On tv until about 1980, about 7.30 in the evening a little 'ad' would come on with two big teddy- bear- clad actors and an overvoice " Now, children, it's time to clean your teeth, say your prayers, kiss mummy and daddy goodnight, and HOP into bed! Goodnight girls and boys."

This was a signal that the really raunchy shows like Starsky and Hutch or the Dukes of Hazzard were about to begin!

AAAAHHH!
Michael
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  #25   ^
Old Wed, Sep-15-04, 06:59
Monique723's Avatar
Monique723 Monique723 is offline
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Posts: 89
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 158/129/114 Female 60 inches
BF:
Progress: 66%
Location: Michigan
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Interesting article on night lights and childhood leukemia.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...th_leukaemia_dc
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  #26   ^
Old Wed, Sep-15-04, 10:09
Grimalkin's Avatar
Grimalkin Grimalkin is offline
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Posts: 741
 
Plan: PP
Stats: 160/149/125 Female 66 in.
BF:
Progress: 31%
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I haven't read Lights Out - how much sleep are we supposed to be getting? 9.5 hours seems like a lot to me - how come so much?

I usually nod off around 10:30, and wake up on my own around 6. I only sleep about 7.5 hours most nights. This time of year I get to see the sun rise - I love sitting outside drinking my coffee and watching that!
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  #27   ^
Old Wed, Sep-15-04, 13:55
toopoles's Avatar
toopoles toopoles is offline
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Posts: 1,219
 
Plan: Paleo
Stats: 322/240/140 Female 5'6''
BF:I have no idea
Progress: 45%
Location: Winter Texan/Summer Mich
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Some of the things in this book made a lot of sense to me, especially the part about craving carbs to help us sleep. It was interesting and thought provoking. It also made me think about why I can't lose weight/control what I eat very well in the summer, but I can do well in the winter. All the weight that I have lost has been lost during the wintertime. Now that makes sense to me, somewhat.

The last couple of weeks, I have been craving carbs and gaining weight. My schedule has been horrific and I have had to be up at all hours. What I want is to stop craving the carbs. So I started trying to go to bed earlier. (This is a big shift for me, almost a seven hour difference.) The carb cravings have diminished with the change in bedtime, but they haven't stopped.

Marty
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-04, 07:39
daylily's Avatar
daylily daylily is offline
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Posts: 20
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 300/226/150 Female 5'6"
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Progress: 49%
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
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This is a test. I've tried posting here twice and my internet connection failed both times.
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-04, 07:51
daylily's Avatar
daylily daylily is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 300/226/150 Female 5'6"
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Progress: 49%
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
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OK, the test worked so I'm trying again.

Monique - thank you so much for the link! It really backs up what Wiley is saying in Lights Out.

Grimalkin - Lights Out is a big book with lots of complex ideas, but I'll have a shot at a summary.

Widespread, inexpensive, artificial lighting is a very new thing. Rural areas of the US were not completely electrified until the late 60's/early 70's. According to Wiley's research even as recently as a hundred years ago people got 9 to 10 hours of sleep, especially in winter when the days are short.

Our pineal glands register light and dark and if we don't get enough time of true darkness we don't produce enough melatonin. That in turn screws up our other hormones and our health in general. Wiley believes that many cancers are caused by exposure to too much light and not enough darkness/sleep. See the link posted by Monique.

Here's how she ties it in with sugar: In nature there is lots of light only in the summer. This is also when the fruit is ripe and high levels of carbohydrates are available. Humans take advantage of this to mate. Wiley believes that most pregnancies started in summer for a birth in the spring, when food becomes more available again.

Also, the summer carbs brought on increased insulin, fat storage and cholesterol production which prepared us for winter. We could use up our fat stores when food was scarce. She even says that cholesterol acts as a sort of cellular antifreeze!

Nowadays we keep the lights on late - even all night. Our bodies think it's summer and we crave carbs. Sugar is available all year too. We're always awake and eating carbs getting ready for a winter that never comes.

Her recommendation is a minimum of 9.5 hours of sleep in a totally darkened room for the darkest 7 months of the year. In summer it's ok to stay up late and work or party, but winter with it's increased darkness and sleep must follow.

Hope this helps.
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-04, 08:01
daylily's Avatar
daylily daylily is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 300/226/150 Female 5'6"
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Progress: 49%
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
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OH, it's so wonderful to see that last post. That was my third attempt.

I'd like to add that the Lights Out idea makes more and more sense to me. Artificial lighting is a particular manifestation of the industrial revolution that I had come to take so for granted that it surprised me when I realized how new and different things are now. This is a change in our culture almost on a par with the agricultural revolution.

I believe we are still in the midst of this change. Even 30 years ago, when I was a young adult, people went to bed earlier than they do now. Then, one am was staying up late. Now, that's just the beginning of the evening for some.

Of course, my grandparents couldn't believe how late young folks stayed up in the 60's. They were the first generation to have electric light available and they used it to extend daylight by only a few hours. For the most part the slept by the same schedule they grew up with.

Wiley thinks the soaring rates of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease directly tie in to our endless summers of light and sugar consumption. She even suggests that this may lead to our extinction as a species.

I'm trying to sleep more, but it's hard. We're going camping this weekend. I hope I get to see some real darkness. For sure I'll be sleeping and rising more in synch with the sun.
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