Dear rhaaz and gotbeer,

Regarding the length of intestines for digesting vegetation vs. meat--if you watch National Geographic or other documentaries regarding animals, you will note that these documentaries say Gorillas have a "pot belly" to best digest their diet of vegetation and fruits. E'nuff said.

So rhaaz...I agree with you regarding the "intestines." If the Hare Krishnas agree with us, too, so be it.

gotbeer--I am surprised at you! I've been reading your posts and you sound very intelligent. Let's not defend this diet beyond reason--the diet works (even rhaaz says so) without any debate between vegetarians/animal lovers vs. meat lovers/plant humanitarians. We eat the meat that eats the plants, LOL. So, we'll get our grain one way or another. It's called the "food chain."

I am an animal lover and if I had to kill to eat (which my family had to do at one time in Alaska) I would probably starve. However, the meat is out there and hypocrite though I seem to be, I will eat it.

Y'all have a great day!

God bless,


Jeanne48

You mean the birth defects that B12 deficiency causes? Show me ONE study that shows vegetarianism is healthy that the PCRM WASN'T involved in.


1 egg contains .5 mcg of b12, 1 cup milk contains .9 mcg.
3 oz of beef contains 2.1 and beef LIVER contains 60!
The RDA is 6.
Who eats 12 eggs or 6 cups of milk A DAY? You can ONLY get B12 from ANIMAL PRODUCTS!



Beef cattle are there for ONE REASON ONLY--FOOD. I'm not saying that they should abuse those cattle (I don't eat veal), but meat is necessary for good health. Doctors HATE vegetarians because they don't heal well and take longer to cure than meat eaters. I've talked to many doctors at work (I'm a nurse) and they all agree, they can pick out a vegetarian in a crowd, because they're pasty and have an unhealthy complexion.
I eat 1-2 lbs of meat a day and have perfect cholesterol, my diabetes is under control and am never sick. I tried going veggie a few years ago. I was ALWAYS tired and got sick constantly. My skin dried out and my hair was falling out. My TOM would skip several months at a time. None of this normalized until I went low carb.

well...when i started reading this debate i was not going to get into this but...

i in no way want to offend anyone or say that no one is allowed to thier own opinion or beliefs.


so... with that said here are my beliefs and some friendly suggestions, although i realize this is the war zone...so some will take this the way they want to, and be offended and thats okay too because you have the right to perceive things the way you want...

i agree that animal cruelty is a very bad thing. i agree if you feel good and you like veggies and want to eat that way to save animals lives thats great. i agree that slaughter houses are horrible.

i use to be a vegetarian.

i did not eat anything that pertained to animal. one day after a trip with our children and youth from church we stopped and got chiliburgers... the smell of them were so good i tore into them... and have ate meat ever since.

it is okay to kill animals to eat. if it is done right. usually it is not. i can not preach to anyone because i know that the pork, beef, and chicken i eat was possibly probabley brutely killed in a slaughter house. i still eat it and just do not think about it or try not to any way. i guess that is the way most of us think.

there is nothing wrong with saving lives and protecting our beloved animal friends, but God gave them to us to eat just like the plants, veggies, fruit. He did not say we had to eat animals.

i think if someone wants to spare life, pain and suffering great for them it is wonderful. a person like that must have some love in thier heart. goodness and self control is a part of Gods plan for our lives.

sorry for who ever wrote this one but...the posts i read where plants were compared to animals was rediculous... come on now adults.

i would usually never bring God into a conversation like this but... i am a christian and it saddens me to think some one would say they do not believe in God. my mother has made that statement before also. i am really sad for her.

please DO NOT get me wrong. it is your choice to believe in what you want to. i respect that. God gives us the right to do so. ( believe) The Bible says God gave us meat to eat... in the Bible meat was considered to be food, all food. "meat" and veggies and etc...

im not here to say any one is wrong in thier beliefs about anything mentioned here except for believing in God because He is real and some day we will see for ourselves.

the only reason i brought up God in this was because i read somewhere where some one did not believe. i just wanted to say think about that statement. quote:" i do not believe in God" because He is real.

im not here to attack you. please just think a little more about it.

when we seek God we will find the answers we are looking for.

rhaaz, i think you are a kind hearted person and it is great that you care for animals. i feel the same way you do about the slaughterers. i just cant believe that a person with such a big heart has no room for God. like i said it is you choice. i hope i have not offended you.

oh yes... if you feel that some veggie groups are cults that is your right and you should not have been attacked. i feel like some "christian" groups are cults in fact i know they are. but respect that they believe in what they believe in... just as i believe in God. but i guess that is why this is the war zone... so i guess i will wait to see how many attack me or my God. I have been convicted to present the good news to anyone willing to listen and if they turn away that is thier choice and if they say things about God they will have to answer to Him for that... i have done my part. (spreading the gospel) for God so loved the world. John 3:16.


ps:

about the bathroom thing. I use stool softner. i also do a colon cleansing every once in a while.

i am thriving without meat. also, has anyone heard of vitamin supplementation ? pretty easy to do. you can get the b-complex from non-animal sources.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#possible

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetar-ian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer's yeast or torula yeast. It can often be used by those sensitive to other yeasts.

Why would you want to take supplements when you could eat real food?
I looked at nutritional yeast nutritional info. 2 TBS has 133% of the RDA, but it also has 7 g of carbs! hmmmm lets see....... 9 oz of meat= 105% 0 carbs, or 2 TBS of fungus= 133% and 7 carbs.......
Of course, you have to KILL the yeast first...aka-super heating it or adding boiling water. Picture all those little fungi screaming as they get boiled alive! "HELP ME! HELP ME!!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

while i could not find the specs for red star yeast, i have KAL yeast right in front of me, as i eat it. it contains 8 g of protein, and 1 g of sugar, 1/2 g of fat, and 4 g of fiber, and 130% of B12. again, look for another rationalization as to why one needs to eat meat. MEAT IS NOT NECESSARY. not to mention the tons of hormones, rush of adrenaline, all sorts of crap fed the animals so they can get more per pound, plus all the meat poisonings at restaurants, etc. i am living proof that meat is not needed.

The stats I posted were for Red Star yeast

Well, I asked, so you answered. Guess I should have expected something like this.

I never said meat was essential, only that I personally feel much better in provable ways (condition of hair and nails, energy level, weight control) when I include it in my diet. I never claimed that this applies to anyone other than myself. However, my return to meat-eating was based on experiments I did on my own body, and I will not be argued out of it.

OBTW, I don't feel the least bit guilty. You find you can thrive without meat. By experimenting on myself, I discovered--to my great surprise--that I could not. And I do not believe that, for example, beef cattle have a greater right to thrive than I do.

Never before in my life have I been told that I should sacrifice one iota of my personal health on behalf of barnyard animals. This seems somewhat irrational to me. We are not talking about having some material object, such as a television, or not. We are talking about lowering the quality of my health, something that impacts me every second of every day. It also impacts everyone who is in relationship with me. It also negatively impacts my contribution to society in myriad ways.

Again, I make no claims here about the general suitability, or not, of a vegetarian diet as regards human nutrition. As before, my position comes solely out of my personal experience with vegetarian and omnivorous diets.

Emily

I agree, Emily, I would never tell ANYONE what they should or should not eat.

And for the same reasons as you: my personal experience.

Giving up meat was one of the hardest things I ever did.

I would never impose it on anyone.

I believe that eating meat is unethical

(yes, even for you, Emily -- and please don't hate me for saying this, because I really like you a lot, but the suffering you experienced as an ovo-lacto vegetarian -- and I wonder how could that be, because you were getting EXACTLY the same nutrients from eggs & cheese as meat -- but that suffering was relatively trivial compared to the suffering and death of the animals you now eat)

but you certainly have the right to choose what you can, and cannot sacrifice in your efforts to live a good life. Sacrificing pleasures (or perceived necessities) for the sake of the wellbeing of others is a very personal and difficult decision.

My position is only: it is unethical to inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on animals.

My position is NOT that every meat eater must immediately act on this knowledge to give up meat. That would simply be too much to ask.

I think that a perfectly acceptable response would be, "Yeah, ok, sure, lots of animals are suffering and dying for the sake of meat eaters. And yeah, as a general principle, it seems pretty obvious that it is better to avoid unnecessary suffering and death. However, I'm just not ready to stop eating meat -- it's too big a sacrifice for me right now."

Another vegan source of B 12 is tempeh -- it's an Indonesian food made with grains and legumes and a live culture, and I've never had trouble finding it in better grocery stores.

Mmmm, tempeh.

But even vegans who have NO dietary sources of B 12 are not found to lack it.

No one really knows why that is. There is some speculation that there are traces of B 12 in foods not ordinarily thought to contain it. There is also speculation that it can be manufactured by bacteria in the human gut.

But a true B 12 deficiency is extremely rare.

By the way:

I used to be a vegan for ethical reasons. Talk about energy? I was very lean (not surprisingly) and had TONS of energy. I was running up to 16 miles a day.

Anyway, I had to stop because in my new job there were too many group occasions for which the caterer had provided literally NOTHING for me to eat.

Plus, you really couldn't do the Atkins diet as a vegan, and I really like how Atkins is working fo rme right now.

So yeah, if someone were to say, "I can't change my diet according to your ethical principles because it's too inconvenient or is inconsistent with my need to lose weight" I would say, "yeah, I know what you mean, I've encountered the same difficulties and I too have had to make comrpomises."

aimie, I really, really liked your post! You seem like such a good and kind person!

I really like the way you set out your different views without being contentious.

What a good example you set in this forum! I wish I had your gentleness.

Thanks for that post.

hi tholian,
i never said that cattle had a GREATER right to thrive than you do. i would never make a non-sensical statement like that, for there is no definition that you can attach to it. i am sure the cow feels its life is more important, while you feel that yours is. it is when we use those feelings as some sort of rationalization that it is okay to kill another animal for our greater good, that i step in and say it is wrong. do unto others ....

Quinadal, some of the things you post are demonstrably not true.

Quote: " Doctors HATE vegetarians because they don't heal well and take longer to cure than meat eaters."

No, no, no, no.

I have been a vegetarian for twenty years.

I have enjoyed excellent health.

EVERY SINGLE DOCTOR I HAVE EVER VISITED APPROVES OF MY NOT EATING MEAT!!!!!!!!!!

MY CURRENT FAMILY PRACTITIONER IS A STRICT VEGETARIAN -- FOR HEALTH REASONS.

rhaazz: This is where we have to part company, I'm afraid. You think it is morally wrong for me to eat animals. I don't. We are never going to bridge that chasm.

I never thought it was wrong to eat animals even when I was a vegetarian. I chose vegetarianism for two reasons, neither of which had anything to do with morals: the belief that it was a healthier diet, which turned out not to be true for me, and the influence of my partner (at the time), who disapproved of meat-eating even though she claimed she did not.

The fact that my choices had nothing whatsoever to do with my moral precepts or my religious beliefs, is what IMO made it possible for me to go back to meat-eating when it became apparent that I was feeling better on such a diet.

Interestingly, although we both ate exactly the same food, my ex thrived on a veggie diet, and my health suffered. She is still vegetarian today, from what I understand.

Emily

rhaazz,
i am glad you are not up set. thanks for reading. have a great evening. i look forward to reading more of your posts.