I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly). I
had experimented with the Zone diet in the past & felt really
good after the meals, but it seems like a very complicated
diet to stick with full time. I don't know a lot about the
Atkins diet but I've heard it's a lot easier to stick with & a
faster method for weight loss. However, I'm concerned about
negative health impacts from a diet that allows unlimited
protein intake and skimps on fruits and vegetables
(i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).
If someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like
fish, chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items,
would the health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

JeffLaw wrote:
  > I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
  > health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly).
  > I had experimented with the Zone diet in the past & felt
  > really good after the meals, but it seems like a very
  > complicated diet to stick with full time. I don't know a lot
  > about the Atkins diet but I've heard it's a lot easier to
  > stick with & a faster method for weight loss. However, I'm
  > concerned about negative health impacts from a diet that
  > allows unlimited protein intake and skimps on fruits and
  > vegetables
  > (i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).
  > If someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like
  > fish, chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items,
  > would the health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

Zone has more protein than Atkins as far I know. And Zone
is easy to stick with, becuase it's much less restrictive.
It's pretty simple; eat mostly meat, (mostly green) veggies
and a little fruit. Snack on nuts and a little dark
chocolate. If you want rice, bread or pasta, just eat half
as much as you would veggies and don't forget your lettuce
or spinach. And don't go for "fat-free" things. You will go
crazy counting blocks and stuff, and I've found it's
impossible to eat as many blocks as they say to eat,
especially for breakfast and lunch.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
----------
Michael Nielsen
M.Sc.EE

Music: http://mp3.com/archon2 Website: http://www.archonia.dk

Hello Jeff

"JeffLaw" <js_lawrence~yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8955d64.0304261659.48b87cab~posting.google.com...
  > I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
  > health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly).
  > I had experimented with the Zone diet in the past & felt
  > really good after the meals, but it seems like a very
  > complicated diet to stick with full time. I don't know a lot
  > about the Atkins diet but I've heard it's a lot easier to
  > stick with & a faster method for weight loss.

I don't know much about teh Zone Diet, but as far as I have
heard, you don't lose weight faster on either of the 2 diets.
That would be quite unhealthy anyway. Neither of teh 2 diets
is a weightloss programm as such (even though it is a nice
side-effect), but a Way of Life and a permanent decision to
change your eating habits for the better.

  > However, I'm concerned about negative health impacts from a
  > diet that allows unlimited protein intake and skimps on
  > fruits and vegetables

You are allowed a lot of protein, but not unlimited, as
protein can also be converted to glucose. The Atlkins Diet
does make you cut back on very sweet fruits, but if you
follow the diet properly, you should not go short on
veggies, quite the opposite. You are also allowed some
fruit, but as fruit contains a lot of sugar, it is
restricted. I would have guessed, that as a diabetic you
wouldn't eat much fruit anyway ?

  > (i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).
  > If someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like
  > fish, chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items,
  > would the health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

They would more likley be an issue, as you would be missing
out on essential fats and eat too much protein.

I think the best thing is, to buy the book (or borrow it)
and read it. If you just do the diet, by what you heard
other p[eople say, you will fail and most certainly risk
your health.

You could also try Protein Power. It is very smilar to Atkins,
but the book explains the ins and outs and the science bit a
bit better. Neither of the 2 diets is "the Zone" without
carbs, if that is what you were thinking.

Good luck Mad

js_lawrence~yahoo.com (JeffLaw) wrote:

  >However, I'm concerned about negative health impacts from a
  >diet that allows unlimited protein intake

There is no reason you need to eat excessive protein. A
low-carb diet is low-carb, high fat - it needn't be high
protein.

  >and skimps on fruits and vegetables
  >(i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).

There is no hard evidence that this is an issue. Relationships
have been shown, but no causitive relationships have been
demonstrated. More study needs to be done, obviously, but it
is likely that a controlled carb diet may reduce these risks
rather than increasing them.

  >If someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like fish,
  >chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items,

That's what I do - out of personal preference rather than fear
of animal fat.

I focus on fish and poultry, with occasional pork tenderloins
and occasional lean sirloin. I use olive oil as my main fat
source (salmon and sardines for the Omega 3s), and I eat
plenty of low-carb vegetables every day (romaine, broccoli,
cucumber, asparagus, zucchini, cauliflower, etc). For fruits,
I generally only eat berries, which are lower-carb than most,
and avocados. I avoid sweeteners for the most part,
occasionally use stevia, and I take supplements and drink lots
of pure water.

  >would the health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

They have never been demonstrated to be an issue. Studies done
have not taken into consideration the carbohydrate contents of
the diets, because carbs have long been thought to be
beneficial.

Good luck with your decision. Start reading. Learn all you
can, and make an informed decision. Get a baseline on your
cholesterol, triglycerides, HbA1c if you're diabetic... It
can be helpful to have some objective feedback a few months
down the road.

Nancy

js_lawrence~yahoo.com (JeffLaw) wrote:

  >I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
  >health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly).

I forgot to mention - my husband is also diabetic. He went
from BG in the 200's and often 300's, on insulin and following
the ADA diet specs to the letter, to steadily under 100 with
no insulin and no oral meds.

Nancy

I'm really wavering between Sugarbusters and Atkins and never
did induction.

Sugarbusters allows some low glycemic index fruits and
vegetables... doing an Atkins day the ONLY fruit I've
successfully budgeted in were strawberries (about 1 carb
each).

My parents have both lost a lot of weight on Sugarbusters,
focusing on fish, chicken and vegetables including sweet
potatoes. They snack on nuts and berries. They are
stricter than I could ever be about portion control, but
it CAN be done.

JeffLaw wrote in message
<8955d64.0304261659.48b87cab~posting.google.com>...
  >I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
  >health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly).
  >I had experimented with the Zone diet in the past & felt
  >really good after the meals, but it seems like a very
  >complicated diet to stick with full time. I don't know a lot
  >about the Atkins diet but I've heard it's a lot easier to
  >stick with & a faster method for weight loss. However, I'm
  >concerned about negative health impacts from a diet that
  >allows unlimited protein intake and skimps on fruits and
  >vegetables
  >(i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).
  > If someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like
  > fish, chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items,
  > would the health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

On 26 Apr 2003 17:59:44 -0700, js_lawrence~yahoo.com
(JeffLaw) wrote:

  >I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
  >health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly).
  >I had experimented with the Zone diet in the past & felt
  >really good after the meals, but it seems like a very
  >complicated diet to stick with full time.

I tried the Zone very briefly, but all that measuring was too
much work.

  > I don't know a lot about the Atkins diet but I've heard
  > it's a lot easier to stick with & a faster method for
  > weight loss.

You should read about it. You can get info at their web site
at www.atkinscenter.com. Comparative studies have shown that
there is a greater weight loss with Atkins. Under any diet, if
you stop eating what is suggested and go back to the way you
ate before, you will gain the weight back. A diet is a way of
eating, not a temporary solution to a weight problem. The
reasons Atkins is easier to stick with is that:
(a) the restrictions in the early phases tend to kill
cravings for high glycemic index foods, so there is
less chance on going back, and even if you screw up
occasionally (hopefully rarely), it is easy enough
to get right back on track by lowering carb intake
for a few days.
(b) It is a high fat diet, and fats make you feel full and
satisfied so you are less likely to overeat.
  >However, I'm concerned about negative health impacts from a
  >diet that allows unlimited protein intake and skimps on
  >fruits and vegetables
  >(i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).

The diet does not allow unlimited protein intake. It is a high
fat diet, and if you are consuming, say 70% fat, that leaves
you 30% to divide between protein and carbs. My personal
preference is to consume 15% each of carbs and protein.

The diet skimps on fruit other than berries, but not on
veggies such as leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower, and many
more. The high glycemic ones, such as potato, corn, peas and
carrots are not encouraged on either Atkins or the Zone.

If
  >someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like fish,
  >chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items, would the
  >health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

The health risks you mentioned are not an issue on Atkins
diet. According to Atkins they are an issue when combined with
a high carb consumption, but when lowering carb intake,
saturated fats have no adverse effect, and most people's blood
lipid counts improve in the right direction. If you want to
give yourself re-assurance, you can do without a lot of meat.
Get more of your fats from the "good fats" such as salmon,
tuna, lean chicken, olive oil, avocado, almonds, macadamia
nuts, sunflower seeds.

My doctor, who is pro low fat diets, asked me what I eat and I
told her as above. She said she couldn't quarrel with my diet
even though it is low carb and high fat.

You need to supplement an Atkins diet with B vitamins
and fiber.

Z

Regarding fat and heart disease, the recent Duke study should,
at the very least, give researchers serious concern over their
previous findings and recommendations. People on Atkins for 6
months had improved cholesterol levels, ie lower LDL, raised
HDL, and dramatically reduced trigycerides, as compared to
people on low fat diets.

And, as I understand it, the only heart disease vs fat link
that has been really proven with studies is that people with
lower cholesterol levels due to taking statin drugs have lower
death rates. There was also a study about a year ago that
found that people with very low cholesterol actually had a
death rate that was as high as those with very high
cholesterol. Clearly, there is a lot going on here that we
don't fully understand yet.

The cancer link studies is a cause for some concern, however
all these have been done with people eating diets high in
carbs as well as fat, which I think everyone agrees is the
worst combination possible. No one has done studies of people
on carb restricted diets that are high in fat.

Under Atkins, you can eat some vegetables all along and when
you get to your target weight, the amount will have increased
and you will be eating some fruit as well. How much you can
eat in maintenance varies from person to person. If you want
to reduce the amount of fat your eating, you can use more
chicken, fish, etc. in place of dairy, red meat, etc.


js_lawrence~yahoo.com (JeffLaw) wrote in message
news:<8955d64.0304261659.48b87cab~posting.google.com>...
  > I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
  > health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly).
  > I had experimented with the Zone diet in the past & felt
  > really good after the meals, but it seems like a very
  > complicated diet to stick with full time. I don't know a lot
  > about the Atkins diet but I've heard it's a lot easier to
  > stick with & a faster method for weight loss. However, I'm
  > concerned about negative health impacts from a diet that
  > allows unlimited protein intake and skimps on fruits and
  > vegetables
  > (i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).
  > If someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like
  > fish, chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items,
  > would the health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

Hello to all, I've just been a "looker" to this group, btw,
its a great group, this is my first post, so forgive me, if i
dont know all the facts, but i can give my account of the
Zone, versus Atkins...My mother had been on the Zone since
July, 2002, till, last sunday, April 20, and with the Zone,
she lost 77 pounds, and done really well, but had hit a
plateau of over a month, and really started getting
discouraged with "sweet" cravings and found herself giving in
to the cravings...In the meanitime, On Feb.3 i decided to try
the Zone also, kinda like a buddy system for us, My startout
weight was 200lbs exactly, and i remained on the Zone with her
till last sunday April 20, i personally had lost 31 pounds on
the Zone, but we both shared the same opinion that we would
find ourselves getting hungry before our mealtime, now whether
this was just cravings for sweets, (i work in a bakery) or
what, but the more fruits and vegetables and soy based
products we would eat, we would still find ourselves
hungry....and another ironic thing is when she hit her
plateau, i hit one too, for almost the same amout of time, so
we decided it was time for a change, we decided to do the
Atkins, like i said, we are still in the induction, but she
has again, restarted her weight loss, and i have too, she has
lost 4 pounds in this first week, and i have lost 3 pounds,
and now my husband has started this Atkins diet also (4-22),
his startout weight was 261 pounds, and now his weight is 251,
he lost 10 pounds! of course, we have to rememebr this may
have possibly been water retention, ect.. but still, it looks
good on the scale, and it feeels wonderful when people notice
we've all lost weight...but anyhow, the long and short of it
is, on the Atkins, none of us, feel hungry at all in between
meals, and we have since learned that through this induction
period, low carbs, and no sugar, really makes a difference,
and looking back at the foods we would consume with the Zone,
its no wonder we would get hungry, the carbs, and sugar in the
foods would help us lose weight, but they would also raise our
insulin levels up, and again, we would want to satisfy that
craving, at least with the Atkins diet, one has a chance to
"fix" some health problems, or at least get a better grip on
health related problems, My mother also suffered from
Fibromyalgia for many years and had very low energy levels
(chronic fatigue), and now, she feels that urge to exercise
and go! and the symtoms of this disease have dropped
tremendously since starting with Atkins! So, either way, that
is my account of what we expeirenced, and maybe this may help
you in your decision, Good luck to you, and best wishes! Mary

On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:20:15 -0400, Zahava Day
<dayz~sympatico.ca> wrote:

  >The health risks you mentioned are not an issue on Atkins
  >diet. According to Atkins they are an issue when combined
  >with a high carb consumption, but when lowering carb intake,
  >saturated fats have no adverse effect,

lol

What a crockload.

On 27 Apr 2003 07:28:02 -0700, trader4~optonline.net (Chet
Hayes) wrote:

  >And, as I understand it, the only heart disease vs fat link
  >that has been really proven with studies is that people with
  >lower cholesterol levels due to taking statin drugs have
  >lower death rates.

You understand incorrectly.

You really add a wealth of knowledge and information to the
discussion thread.

"Qubit <qubitnospam~usa.net> wrote in message
news:<hh7qavgtpm5klgo1khuf6hl8iv4u71g51f~4ax.com>...

  > You understand incorrectly."

js_lawrence~yahoo.com (JeffLaw) wrote in message
news:<8955d64.0304261659.48b87cab~posting.google.com>...
  > I'd like to get started on a diet for weight loss & general
  > health improvement (preferably something diabetic friendly).
  > I had experimented with the Zone diet in the past & felt
  > really good after the meals, but it seems like a very
  > complicated diet to stick with full time. I don't know a lot
  > about the Atkins diet but I've heard it's a lot easier to
  > stick with & a faster method for weight loss. However, I'm
  > concerned about negative health impacts from a diet that
  > allows unlimited protein intake and skimps on fruits and
  > vegetables
  > (i.e. increased risks for heart disease & cancer long term).
  > If someone on Atkins focused on protein sources like
  > fish, chicken, soy & tofu vs. high animal fat items,
  > would the health risks I mentioned still be an issue?

Hi Jeff;

I can only share my experience on the Atkins. I was a very
obese kid and have resistance to loosing weight (only 5 pounds
on induction at a start weight of 247, age 52, height 5ft 8").
I've been on the diet for 4 1/2 months and have lost 20 pounds
with a lot of experimenting. My Cholesterol dropped from 196
to 186, my Triglycerides dropped from 167 to 134, my HDL
unfortunately droppped from 40 to 33, and my LDL stayed about
the same going from 122 to 126. Not bad for consuming more fat
than I ever have done in my life.

In addition, the first 2 weeks were the pits energy wise but I
felt normal (NOT better nor worse than before) after this. My
weight loss after induction was about 1 pound a week and IF I
eat too much calories, instead of gaining 3 pounds, I would
gain 1/2 pound (it seemed like there was a resistance to
gaining weight.

NOW, I'm at a plateau and am having difficulty losing for
the last 3 weeks and have tried different techniques without
much success.

In hindsight, for myself, if I had to start over, I would
limit myself to the lean proteins (chicken, turkey, fish,
yes-Salmon, Whey protein) without the skin (except for
Salmon), eat 6 cups of vegies (minimal onion and tomato, no
carrots etc) (this keeps you regular), use butter, olive oil
and grapeseed oil and limit the rest to "seasonings" to be
used sparingly and on special occassions like going out to a
restaurant (ex. nuts, cheese, High fat ricotta, dressings).
Munch on sesame seeds IN THE SHELL at night (1 big bowl is
only 1/2 oz of nuts
= 100 calories; the rest is shell scrap)

I hope this helps and if any of you dieters can help me break
through this plateau I would appreciate it.

Good luck, Jeff.

Lance 226 and hopefully going down

x-no-archive: yes

  > However, I'm concerned about negative health impacts from a
  > diet that
     >> allows unlimited protein intake and skimps on fruits and
     >> vegetables

Low carbing promotes *more* eating of fruits and vegetables.
You have to replace all that starch with *something*. High
fiber, low glycemic salads, veggies and fruits are all part of
any low carb diet, including Atkins.

The Zone is too low fat for good health, and no one can stay
on all that calculating and counting for very long.

Susan <about midlevel Protein Power