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  #31   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-03, 17:58
becky160's Avatar
becky160 becky160 is offline
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Posts: 862
 
Plan: Atkins (Modified)
Stats: 242/216/155 Female 57
BF:shrinking!!
Progress: 30%
Location: Barcelona, Spain
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Hi Lisa!!! :Wave: Nice to hear from you.

Well, I think you are on the wrong thread (Didn't you want to post this in Lonnie's thread?)

We are speaking about water consumption in here, not kidney dysfunction. Like, How much water we should drink in a High Protein Diet?

Also, all your links have the following comment on the bottom of the page, and the sources come from THE ATKINS CENTER.

Quote:
The findings of this study can be applied to the Atkins Principle of Good Health. A controlled carbohydrate nutritional approach, which may tend to be high in dietary protein consumption, may not alter kidney function. Subjects in this study, consuming 100 grams of protein or more per day, had kidney function equivalent to those eating 30 grams of protein per day.


So, ATKINS diet is a High Protein or "Adequate" protein?

What is adequate and what is High protein intake? That is the reason of the posts in the percentages posted from the links I found.

"Everybody can document their findings. Just like statistics, - it's all about the way you use the results of the tests or research. And Is good to compare points of views." - I stold this phrase from a Great friend.

I posted
"
Quote:
Let`s see what others say about what is adequate and what is high protein" -


Is not my personal opinion -and yes, the sources are varied. But I want to clear my doubts, and know what is the PERCENTAGE of an ADEQUATE and what is the Percentage of what they call a HIGH protein diet.

Many Many sources speak about the importance of drinking more water than the recommended daily intake for people on High Protein Diets.

Please comment Thank you Lisa.
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  #32   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-03, 18:28
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Becky...The sources of those links may have come from the Atkins website, but they did not do the studies that I posted, if you read the information closely. The Atkins website just happens to have a very good library of such studies. Did you read my link to the Protein Power site regarding calculating minimum protein requirements? Keep in mind...this is considered the minimum amount that you would need to keep from losing muscle instead of gaining it, so only just adequate. They also state that exceeding that amount is not a problem unless you have an existing kidney problem, in which case they still wouldn't limit you, but would monitor your kidney function a bit more closely.
For example, I'm 5' 3" tall and have a calculated lean body mass of 130 pounds. I'm considered active, so according to the Protein Power site I would need a minimum of 0.7 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass or a minimum of 91 grams of protein per day. Generally, I get between 100 and 150 grams of protein per day and have not experienced any problems or edema other than my usual water retention during my menstrual period.

Let's take Dr. Atkins ratios of 65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carbs. On a 2,000 calorie intake that works out to 144 grams of fat, 150 grams of protein and 25 grams of carb. 2,000 too high? Let's look at 1,800 calories (the level Dr. Atkins states that most women can lose safely at): that's 130 grams of fat, 135 grams of protein and 22 grams of carb. Even at 1,500 calories, you'd still be getting 112 grams of protein following those ratios. These are levels he seems to consider "adequate" since he never considered his way of eating to be "high protein" but rather high fat instead, at least during the weight loss phases. Yes, other diet plans recommend lower protein intakes (15-20%), but studies have repeatedly shown that when protein intake is that low, a larger percentage of the weight lost comes from lean body mass and not fat because the body is taking what it needs from your own muscle tissue.

As for water intake, Dr. Atkins recommended at least eight 8 oz. glasses of water per day, or about 2 liters: http://atkins.com/helpatkins/newfaq...BeDrinking.html You might need more if you live in a hot or dry climate or are excercising strenuously and perspiring a lot.
I'd be interested in seeing what you are basing your recommendation for a gallon of water a day or more on? Quite honestly, I don't believe it's realistic especially for those who have jobs that would not allow for a bathroom break every 20-30 minutes.
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  #33   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-03, 19:37
becky160's Avatar
becky160 becky160 is offline
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Plan: Atkins (Modified)
Stats: 242/216/155 Female 57
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Hi Lisa!

WOW That was a loooong post.

I know absolutely everything you posted, and I am also a reader of Atkins Center Library. I also know how to get the calculation for the "Minimum intake of Protein". So this is out of discussion.

Quote:
As for water intake, Dr. Atkins recommended at least eight 8 oz. glasses of water per day, or about 2 liters: http://atkins.com/helpatkins/newfaq...BeDrinking.html (1) You might need more if you live in a hot or dry climate or are excercising strenuously and perspiring a lot.
I'd be interested in seeing what you are basing your recommendation for a gallon of water a day or more on? (2) Quite honestly, I don't believe it's realistic especially for those who have jobs that would not allow for a bathroom break every 20-30 minutes.


Great. I have the DANDR and he states to "Drink Water until you Float" the recommendation of water intake is the same for all diets. I completely agree.

1 gallon of water = to 3.7 liters of water. Do you really think that this is A LOT of water? I still believe that the Atkins diet is High Protein and that can cause dehydration if the water intake is not upped. So uping the water intake 1.5 more liters, I don't think harms, of couse, taking the right supplements of vitamins and minerals and making sure the any dieter does not have a health problem like Oedema, hipertension, kydney Disfunction, etc, etc. But is just that, my recommendation. People take it or leave it.

Here are a couple of my sources ( I have others but just no time to look for them and post them)

Quote:
The Atkins high protein diet became popular in the 1980's due to it's ability to provide quick weight loss, as much as 10 pounds a week for many impatient dieters. Protein requires water in order to be metabolized, so a high protein diet will cause dehydration. A low carb diet also causes dehydration. When adequate dietary carbohydrates are not consumed, the body begins to draw on its carbohydrate reserves to provide glucose - this process leads to additional fluid loss. Therefore, a combination of high protein + low carb causes severe fluid loss which contributes to much of the weight loss you see initially when you step on the scale.

http://www.carboh.com/

Really Lisa, do you think is too much?

So another of my suggestions was upping their water intake or drinking water until it came out clear. Considering that we go pipi a lot, It will come out clear many times!

But is just that, my suggestion and recommendation, and of course, is PERSONAL..I'm not a Doctor Doesn't say at the top of this Forum "Atkins diet and low carbohydrate diet discussion provided free for information purposes, NOT as medical advice."?

If you put in the google search bar : "Atkins" + "High Protein", you will see pages and pages and pages of information that post : "Dr Atkins High Protein Diet".

I undestand that we consider Atkins a moderate protein diet, but is not "sold" as "adequate" or "Moderate". And there are many many sources that consider that a diet that contains more than 20% Protein is High Protein.

I eat 1800 calories and 30% of protein, Is quiet a lot, and "Expensive"!( My husband wants me out of this WOE...Grrrrr....)...But of course I'm sticking with it all the way!!!!

I never in my life had more than 2 eggs 2 or 3 times a week. Now I eat between 3 to 6 eggs + meat/poulty/Fish + tuna fish + sausage, + chorizo!!
every single day, since the sun rises, and it sets.

I have found in MANY MANY posts, where some people just IMPOSE (did I spell it right?) their knowledge and ideas. Is great to inform, but is also great to see what other people think or know, due to their, Experience and Knowledge. Have you read the Atkins book from the 70's? I really think that he has evolved since then. Before we could drink Diet Sodas, for example. And now, only if they are sweetened with Splenda , and they have a Web page where they keep modifying their information after doing research. Why can't we also find what is right for us, and experiment in this WOE?

Last edited by becky160 : Thu, Oct-23-03 at 20:31.
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  #34   ^
Old Thu, Oct-23-03, 20:20
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Becky...I know a lot of people (mostly critics) say this is a high protein diet (something that Dr. Atkins never agreed with), but you have to remember that those protein recommendations are based on the former high carb recommended way of eating, which for the most part were protein deficient.
Yes, I do think that a gallon of water a day is a lot. I get 2 liters, sometimes a bit more, and my urine is only concentrated first thing in the morning when I get up and have had nothing to drink for 7 hours or more. For me, "drink water until you float" means about 2 liters. For some it could mean more, for others less. Telling someone to "drink water until you float" isn't very precise which is where the 2 liters a day recommendation comes in. Consider also, that when people talk about increasing water consumption due to higher protein intake, that the vast majority of people don't even get those eight glasses of water per day (maybe half that at most!), so 2 liters would be an increase for them! Quite honestly, before I started low carbing, I could go days without drinking any water and drank only coffee and diet pop instead.
Think about it...are you losing 10 pounds or more a week at this point? Five? I know I'm not, so where is this "severe fluid loss" that the article you posted speaks of? Water is heavy, so if you are losing a lot of it, you would drop weight rapidly as well as showing obvious signs of dehydration. A liter of water weighs over 2 pounds; most people lose about that much weight in a week. All water? Not according to my fat percentage analysis! The majority of what I have lost so far has been fat and very little muscle, thanks to an adequate protein intake. Initially, there is a quick water loss as the body's glycogen stores are depleted during the first 3-5 days of induction, but most people here will tell you that weight loss after induction usually slows quite a bit unless you started out with a large amount of weight to lose. At 2 liters of water per day, I can tell you for a fact that I am not dehydrated and my pale yellow urine also tells me that. If a "high" protein intake really causes such severe dehydration unless you drink gallons of water, according to that quote you posted, I should be nothing more than a dessicated pile of cells by now after 2 1/2 years of low carb and "high" protein and "only" drinking 2 liters of water a day. Really, what that quote you posted is talking about is the first 3-5 days of induction, not what happens after that.
I'm also wondering why the focus on protein metabolism since that is not where the majority of our energy source is coming from. It's coming from fat! Both that from your body's fat stores and from what you eat. The body prefers to use protein to build and repair, not as an energy source unless no other energy source is available. Ketones are the result of mostly fat metabolism, not protein. Water is needed for fat metabolism, but again, I doubt that most people require a gallon a day. Now if you're really thirsty enough to drink that much water, go for it, but I'm not going to tell someone to force themselves to drink that much water if they are getting the minimum amount required (2 liters), especially without any really solid medical evidence that it's necessary to back me up.
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  #35   ^
Old Fri, Oct-24-03, 10:14
Nicckkii's Avatar
Nicckkii Nicckkii is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 364/319/165 Female 67 inches
BF:54.2/52/25
Progress: 23%
Location: Jamaica
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Hmmm, I wonder if I should jump in here? Yup, I will.

The water argument is fascinating but unnecessary. Many accepted authorities on the subject (I won't quote one) have stated that you should drink eight glasses of water plus one glass for every 25 lbs you have to lose. For example I drink 13 glasses a day because I have a little over 100 lbs to lose.

BECKY, LISA: I think you will find that this is a good rule of thumb. So that you're both right in your water drinking habits based on the number of lbs each of you had to lose. Becky drinks more because she has more to lose.

About the protein metabolism thing... I am living proof that the human body can efficiently (unfortunately) metabolize protein for energy in the absence of carbohydrates. Hence my current stall. I am on day 4 of Stillmans which is just low fat meat and nothing else and to date I have not lost a pound neither am I in ketosis.

Also remember the average person WILL convert about 40% of the protein they eat into energy making the quantity of protein consumed an issue on this diet.

I think everyone is individual and needs to find their own happy medium that works for them. Still advice like that given by Becky is great to have as it gives a person options and something else to try when nothing else seems to work.

Both of you keep up the good work and keep posting the info as you get it.

Nicckkii

Wow now look whose post is loooong.
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  #36   ^
Old Fri, Oct-24-03, 12:06
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Plan: Primal
Stats: 165/149/145 Female 5'7"
BF:
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Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
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"...Many accepted authorities on the subject..." Yes, and many accepted authorites state that we should be eating 5-11 servings of grain products a day, too. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be questioned, and that research shouldn't back it up. Not that I disagree with it, but the "8 glasses of water" thing was one of those stories that came not from research, but as something that people just kept repeating until it became assumed to be true - just like low fat. So again, I don't disagree with it, but it's up for debate. When all else fails, listen to your body.

>>"I have found in MANY MANY posts, where some people just IMPOSE (did I spell it right?) their knowledge and ideas."

Becky, you've been the worst offender of this lately. Most of us (not just moderators) word our advice loosely and generally. You've been very specific with numbers and freely use the imperative tense. Perhaps that's just the language barrier, but it comes across as authoritarian and more factual than it really is. "I did read it again as you ordered..." See? You didn't like it when I did it, but that's how you've been wording much of your advice to people. "But is just that, my suggestion and recommendation, and of course, is PERSONAL..I'm not a Doctor" Exactly. Which is why "prescribing" such exact numbers isn't a good idea. It doesn't matter whether or not you can find research to back it up - as we've pointed out, different sources have different nutritional paradigms behind them.

As long as you're getting enough, exact amounts of water, fiber and protein DON'T MATTER THAT MUCH. The "drink till you float" thing, the "body weight divided by two" thing, the percentages of fat/protein/carbs... these are all rules of thumb. Our bodies vary too much to try to pin these rules to the letter on anyone. Throwing studies at each other trying to define "enough" is pointless when you should be listening to your body. Stall or no stall - if you're peeing a lot, you're drinking enough water. If you're regular, you've got enough fiber. If you're eating according to your appetite and the rules of the book, you're most likely getting enough protein.

'nuff said.

Last edited by Kristine : Fri, Oct-24-03 at 12:58.
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  #37   ^
Old Fri, Oct-24-03, 13:07
becky160's Avatar
becky160 becky160 is offline
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Posts: 862
 
Plan: Atkins (Modified)
Stats: 242/216/155 Female 57
BF:shrinking!!
Progress: 30%
Location: Barcelona, Spain
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Quote:
Yes, I do think that a gallon of water a day is a lot. I get 2 liters, sometimes a bit more, and my urine is only concentrated first thing in the morning when I get up and have had nothing to drink for 7 hours or more. For me, "drink water until you float" means about 2 liters. For some it could mean more, for others less. Telling someone to "drink water until you float" isn't very precise which is where the 2 liters a day recommendation comes in. Consider also, that when people talk about increasing water consumption due to higher protein intake, that the vast majority of people don't even get those eight glasses of water per day (maybe half that at most!), so 2 liters would be an increase for them! Quite honestly, before I started low carbing, I could go days without drinking any water and drank only coffee and diet pop instead.


Water is the substance of life. Life cannot exist without Water. We must constantly be adding fresh water to our body in order to keep it properly hydrated. The body is comprised of over 70% water.This ratio must be maintained for good health. Water is the most important thing we can put inside our bodies. It is difficult for the body to get water from any other source than water itself. Soft drinks and alcohol steal tremendous amounts of water from the body, however, even other beverages such as coffee, milk and juice require water from the body to be properly digested. It plays a vital role in nearly every bodily function. and is essential for proper digestion, nutrient absorbtion and chemical reactions, circulation in the body, and flexibility of the blood vessels. It also helps remove toxins (acidic waste) from the body, in particular from the digestive tract. Water regulates your body's temperature, imagine a car running without water in the radiator. Consistent failure to drink enough water can lead to Chronic Cellular Dehydration. This condition where the body's cells do not get hydrated enough leaving them in a weakened state, and vulnerable to disease processes. It weakens the body's overall immune system and leads to chemical, nutritional and pH imbalances.
Dehydration can occur at any time of the year, not only during the summer months when it is hot or due to excercise. The dryness that occurs during winter can dehydrate the body quicker than when it is hot, one of the main causes being central heating and a dry atmosphere in the home. The other being not drinking enough water. (ERASED THE COMMENT ON CHOLERA)
There is a General Rule for water intake:

we should drink half your body weight in ounces of water every day to provide your body with its MINIMUM water replacement requirements as long as you are reasonably fit. Otherwise swe shoul start by sipping the water and gradually build up.


My body weight is 216 lbs/2 = 107.8 fl. ounces X .0295lts = 3.18 liters MINIMUM
(I understand that not all of us weight 216 pounds)

Your body weight is 190lbs/2 = 95 fl ounces x .0295 lts = 2.80 liters should be your MINIMUM water intake.

I know that overweight people has to increase their water intake.

Quote:
I'm also wondering why the focus on protein metabolism since that is not where the majority of our energy source is coming from. It's coming from fat!


I think that you are only refering to the 1st phase of the Atkins diet. If there is no ketosis, then our main source of energy comes from carbs and proteins, right?

Quote:
Telling someone to "drink water until you float" isn't very precise which is where the 2 liters a day recommendation comes in.


Are you referring at the post I made in the Atkins Sub-forum in the Gallon + Drinkers? I agree that is not precise. I even Quoted or said : As Atkins mentions in his DANDR book . Did not make an imperative order. Ithink thatIeven asked a question there ... and you replied it.
If every time I post something I have to be very very precise, I would go Nuts in this Forum!!!


Lets use the "formula" you are using recommended by the ATKINS CENTER:

64 oz x 8 oz for every 25lbs of BF.

Let's see how much water intake (MINIMUM ) you should be drinking.

64oz = 1.88 liters (LBM)

Maybe your BF is made of 70 lbs + 24 oz = .708 ml

Your minimum water intake would be: 2.58 liters of water/day!!!!

We are not calculating exercise, nor weather condition, etc.

Overweight people need to drink more water.

Quote:
Think about it...are you losing 10 pounds or more a week at this point? Five? I know I'm not, so where is this "severe fluid loss" that the article you posted speaks of? Water is heavy, so if you are losing a lot of it, you would drop weight rapidly as well as showing obvious signs of dehydration. A liter of water weighs over 2 pounds; most people lose about that much weight in a week. All water? Not according to my fat percentage analysis!


We carry in our body an average of 45 liters of water and it needs to be constantly renewed. FAT during Ketosis is Flushed out, but thanks to water intake, not to mention other toxines etc.... Imagine that someone was not drinking not even close to 64 oz!!! What would happen?

I have seen many people in this forum that do not stay on ketosis only for two weeks, but for much longer periods of time ( I have been in ketosis for the past 4 months).
We do not only lose water by the urea tract, but also by breathing, the skin, , the controlling of our body temperature...etc, etc.
Only when we breath, we lose about .800 liters of water a day!

/ becky: Well, enough for me for today. Lisa, Up you water intake! (Just Joking)

Last edited by becky160 : Fri, Oct-24-03 at 18:24. Reason: erased the s****d comment on cholera.
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  #38   ^
Old Fri, Oct-24-03, 15:12
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
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Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
before I started low carbing, I could go days without drinking any water and drank only coffee and diet pop instead.


Becky...I never said that this was optimal or even a good idea, really, just that this is what I did for years (probably 20 or more) prior to low carbing. I hated water and drank other things instead (primarily coffee, iced tea and diet pop). Even now, I can find you references that state that any fluid is fine in place of water (note I don't agree with that, but it IS out there). During those years where I rarely drank water, I did not wind up in the hospital or die from dehydration nor did I get sick more often than the national average. There are many rules of thumb as far as how much water a person needs, but I'd like to point out that none of them are backed by any scientific research and all of them are based more or less on opinion and what is commonly thought to be best. Let's try not to present things as if they were written in stone and irrefutable. Yes, drinking water is good for your health and necessary for fat metabolism. Yes, we should drink at least eight glasses of water per day. Any more than that, we cannot say with any certaintly and as Kristine pointed out, even the eight glasses of water recommendation isn't backed up by anything other than common sense.

Quote:
I think that you are only refering to the 1st phase of the Atkins diet. If there is no ketosis, then our main source of energy comes from carbs and proteins, right?


No, I wasn't. You may want to go back and re-review your book. Dr. Atkins states that fat remains our primary energy source thoughout OWL and often into pre-maintainance as well because our bodies have been trained to prefer fat for energy. If you were to go back to eating a high carb diet again, then the body would switch back to being a primarily carb burning system.

Quote:
64 oz x 8 oz for every 25lbs of BF.


Actually, it's 64 oz. plus 8 oz. for every 25 pounds that you want to lose which in my case is about another 35 pounds or another glass and a half. Again, it's not a hard and fast, written in stone rule but a recommendation. What I'm doing must be working because I've lost 70 pounds so far.

Quote:
Imagine that someone was not drinking not even close to 64 oz!!! What would happen?


What would happen is that they would get a ton of recommendations from other members of the board to up their water intake.


Quote:
I have seen many people in this forum that do not stay on ketosis only for two weeks, but for much longer periods of time ( I have been in ketosis for the past 4 months).


Ummm..Becky...I've been in ketosis for 2 1/2 years as my plan never allows me to go over 30 grams of carb per day. As you pointed out, the body has other ways of disposing of extra ketones besides urination (breathing and sweat), although at this point, I'd say there aren't a lot of extra ketones floating around in my system as it has become pretty efficient at using them as my primary energy source. You'll have a lot of extra ketones when weight loss is rapid or when your body has not yet completely adapted to burning ketones as its primary energy source, otherwise your body uses most of them and there aren't a lot of extra to be excreted (one of the reasons why some people note that their strips stop changing color after a while even though they're still losing weight).

Quote:
Many diseases such as Cholera are caused primarily through dehydration.


I have to correct this just from a medical standpoint, although it's an example of posting something as fact that is actually incorrect. Cholera is not caused by dehydration, Cholera results in dehydration through severe diarrhea. Cholera is actually caused by bacteria ingested through drinking contaminated water.

Last edited by Lisa N : Fri, Oct-24-03 at 15:13.
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  #39   ^
Old Fri, Oct-24-03, 17:47
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Plan: DANDR '92
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Hello!! Referee whistle here.

I'd like to remind members to please review the Forum Rules. If members have a concern about any post, please use "report post" which is at the bottom of every message on the forums. Posting privileges of any member will be suspended for violating the rules.


Doreen

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sunday, 26 Oct '03, 9:30 a.m. EST .. edit .. After reviewing this thread today, it has been decided to remove several off-topic posts which were unrelated to the subject of stalling or helping others, and bordered on violating forum rules. Please stick to the topic at hand, and if you have a complaint then use "report post".

Regards,

Admin.
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  #40   ^
Old Sat, Aug-07-04, 13:53
Suerte Suerte is offline
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Posts: 12
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 175.8/157/130 Female 5'4
BF:38
Progress: 41%
Location: Sunshine Coast
Default stalling out

Hi, I have discovered the more I eat, the more weight I lose. I am counting carbs, and am sticking fairly close to the 20 grams, but have added blackberries and a dollop of unsweetened whipped cream to my daily routine.

Good luck,
Karen
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  #41   ^
Old Sun, Oct-24-04, 08:03
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monkeygirl monkeygirl is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 203.5/192.5/135 Female 66 inches
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Progress: 16%
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I must say, I have absolutely felt more dehydrated since starting this WOE (Unfortunately this is my 3rd start). When I am following other plans or just simply eating what I want, I find that I only have 1 or 2 drinks throughout the day and I still don't get thirsty. I know it's very unhealthy so I don't need information on it, this thread has provided enough stats already! In any case, with the Atkins WOE, I crave water 24/7. I have no problems reaching the eight 8 oz. glasses of water. I'm thirsty all day. It's one of the only reasons I keep trying this plan. I just can't force myself to get proper water intake otherwise. I would have to agree with Becky. I think high protein diets do require a higher water intake. Before I get any slack from other people, no, I'm not a research scientist so I am certainly not an expert on the subject and would never pretend to be, I just know what my body is telling me and I think that's one of the best things to listen to.
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  #42   ^
Old Sun, Oct-24-04, 08:36
jadefox26's Avatar
jadefox26 jadefox26 is offline
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Plan: Atkins/CarbCycling
Stats: 299/252/180 Female 69"
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I think Becki is only trying to help people out of their predicaments, and I don;t think she is forcing her ideas on anyone, surely this is exactly why we have "free speech" in the uk and usa, so that we can pretty much say what we like to people without getting shouted down or disqualified.
I think becki needs a break guys, she's only trying to help!
It is our choice wether we listen to her or not....surely?
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