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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Mar-21-18, 11:12
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Default Meat and Fatty liver? More population study nonsense

Quote:
High consumption of red and processed meat linked to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease and insulin resistance
A new study adds NAFLD to the list of diseases associated with a Western diet that includes relatively high consumption of red and processed meat

World meat consumption has increased during the last decades, and evidence is mounting that high consumption of red and mainly processed meat is unhealthy to humans and is related to chronic diseases such as cancer, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. A new study published in the Journal of Hepatology adds non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD) to the list.

"NAFLD is considered as the hepatic component of the metabolic syndrome, with insulin resistance and inflammation as key factors in its pathophysiology," explained lead investigator Prof. Shira Zelber-Sagi, RD, PhD, from the School of Public Health, Faculty of Social Welfare and Health Sciences, University of Haifa, Israel. "Unhealthy Western lifestyle plays a major role in the development and progression of NAFLD, namely, lack of physical activity and high consumption of fructose and saturated fat. Our study looked at other common foods in the Western diet, namely red and processed meats, to determine whether they increase the risk for NAFLD."

In order to test the association of type of meat and cooking method with NAFLD and insulin resistance, investigators undertook a cross-sectional study among individuals 40-70 years old who underwent screening colonoscopy at the Department of Gastroenterology and Hepatology in the Tel Aviv Medical Center, and who agreed to participate in a metabolic and hepatic screening study between 2013 and 2015.

NAFLD and insulin resistance were evaluated by ultrasonography and homeostasis model assessment (HOMA). Meat type and cooking method were measured by food frequency and detailed meat consumption questionnaires. Unhealthy cooking methods were characterized as frying or grilling to a level of well done or very well done. These methods produce heterocyclic amines (HCAs), which are pro-inflammatory compounds, and their intake was also calculated.

After excluding some of the participants due to factors such as viral liver disease and alcohol abuse, close to 800 subjects were included in the main analysis, of whom a sub-sample of 357 subjects completed the meat questionnaire. NAFLD was diagnosed in 38.7 percent of participants and insulin resistance in 30.5 percent. The proportion of red and white meat intake was about one third and two thirds, respectively, which is similar to the typical diet of the Israeli population. High meat eaters were slightly younger, mainly male, had a higher body mass index (BMI), caloric intake, and a worse metabolic profile.

The results showed that high consumption of red and processed meat is independently associated with NAFLD and insulin resistance regardless of saturated fat and cholesterol intake and other risk factors such as BMI. In addition, individuals who consumed large quantities of meat cooked using unhealthy methods and those already diagnosed with NAFLD who consumed high HCAs had a higher chance of having insulin resistance.

Low carb diets are frequently recommended to prevent metabolic diseases. These low carb diets can be very rich in animal protein, especially meat. While meat contributes valuable nutrients that are beneficial to health, including protein, iron, zinc, and vitamin B12, the current study indicates that meat should be eaten in moderation and the type of meat and its preparation method should be wisely chosen.

Although the association between high red and processed meat consumption and NAFLD remains to be confirmed by prospective studies, Prof. Zelber-Sagi, recommends limiting red and processed meat consumption in preference for healthier "white meat," such as chicken or turkey, including fish in the diet, and steaming or boiling food instead of grilling or frying meat at a high temperature until it is very well done.

"NAFLD is primarily a lifestyle-oriented disease. With sound medical and nutritional guidance from their clinicians, patients are better informed and equipped to implement the lifestyle changes needed to help reverse this disease," remarked Prof. Zelber-Sagi.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80320084350.htm

The time for this type of hypothesis-generating study is mostly past, this has been worked into the ground. An increase in poor-quality evidence does nothing but increase a cognitive bias--the more you hear something repeated, from the more sources, the more it seems true. Fish or cut bait, show us a bunch of intervention studies where boiled beef gives better results than fried. Or raw is better.

There is a bit of evidence out there, they've given mice pellets well cooked or not. But just adding water to a pellet, or making it harder or softer some other way, can have an effect. The cooking method was steaming--you could guess that pellets steamed twice as long might be softer--and softer pellets result in worse outcomes in mice, perhaps because they don't hurt the animal's mouth when they eat it.

Another possibility, just add these compounds to the chow without changing how they cook the pellets. Okay, can work, but these compounds are yummy, it's why we like barbecue, other things that make chow more appealing also give animals a worse result. Maybe that's a factor in humans, too--but if it is, we're likely to just find some other way to make the food extra palatable, it's not like we lack imagination in that department.
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Mar-21-18, 12:54
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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If I'm understanding the report, they asked ONLY about meat consumption, then concluded that higher meat consumption caused disease. But the people must have been eating other things, too - like sugar, bread, potatoes, fruit. Did the researchers believe that these foods had no affect on health?
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Mar-21-18, 13:22
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Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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That's right Bonnie, No mention of the box of Twinkies and the quart of Coke per day and how that factors into the study's cause and effects....
Isn't that always the way it is.. Oh look he eats meat and he is sick, therefor meat is bad and made him sick! LOLOL
What do you call that? tunnel vision, take the blinders off, look at the big picture.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Mar-22-18, 08:29
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teaser teaser is offline
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80321162250.htm

Quote:
Grilled or well-done beef, chicken or fish may raise the risk of developing high blood pressure among people who regularly eat those foods, according to preliminary research presented at the American Heart Association's Epidemiology and Prevention | Lifestyle and Cardiometabolic Health Scientific Sessions 2018, a premier global exchange of the latest advances in population based cardiovascular science for researchers and clinicians.

Researchers analyzed cooking methods and the development of high blood pressure in people who regularly ate beef, poultry or fish: 32,925 women taking part in the Nurses' Health Study; 53,852 women participating in the Nurses' Health Study II; and 17,104 men in the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study. Detailed cooking information was collected in each of these long-term studies. None of the participants had high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, or cancer when they enrolled, but 37,123 people developed high blood pressure during an average follow-up of 12-16 years.

Among participants who reported eating at least two servings of red meat, chicken or fish a week, the analysis revealed that the risk of developing high blood pressure was:

17 percent higher in those who grilled, broiled, or roasted beef, chicken or and fish more than 15 times/month, compared with less than 4 times a month.
15 percent higher in those who prefer their food well done, compared with those who prefer rarer meats.
17 percent higher in those estimated to have consumed the highest levels of heterocyclic aromatic amines (HAAs) -- chemicals formed when meat protein is charred or exposed to high temperatures -- compared to those with the lowest intake.
Researchers noted the relationship between cooking temperature, method, doneness and high blood pressure was independent of the amount or type of food consumed.

"The chemicals produced by cooking meats at high temperatures induce oxidative stress, inflammation and insulin resistance in animal studies, and these pathways may also lead to an elevated risk of developing high blood pressure," said Gang Liu, Ph.D., lead author of the study and a postdoctoral research fellow in the department of nutrition at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health in Boston.

Oxidative stress, inflammation and insulin resistance affect the inner linings of blood vessels, and are associated with the development of atherosclerosis, the disease process that underlies heart disease and causes the arteries to become narrowed.

It is important to note that this study identifies a trend but does not prove cause and effect. The findings are limited because data came from questionnaires that did not include certain types of meats (such as pork and lamb) and certain cooking methods (such as stewing and stir-frying). Because the participants were all health professionals and mostly Caucasian, the results may not generalize to other groups.

"Our findings suggest that it may help reduce the risk of high blood pressure if you don't eat these foods cooked well done and avoid the use of open-flame and/or high-temperature cooking methods, including grilling/barbequing and broiling," Liu said.


Eating low carb seems to have given me a roughly zero percent chance of high blood pressure. I think I can risk that 15 percent increase of zero.


The Nurses Health study, there's gold (fool's) in them thar hills. More today:

Quote:
Mono-unsaturated fats from plants, not animals may reduce risk of death from heart disease and other causes

Diets rich in mono-unsaturated fatty acids from plants were associated with a lower risk of dying from heart disease or other causes compared to diets rich in mono-unsaturated fats from animals, which were linked to a higher risk of death from heart disease or other causes, according to preliminary research presented at the American Heart Association's Epidemiology and Prevention | Lifestyle and Cardiometabolic Health Scientific Sessions 2018, a premier global exchange of the latest advances in population based cardiovascular science for researchers and clinicians.

"Our results emphasize the importance of the source and quantity of mono-unsaturated fatty acids in the diet -- we should eat more mono-unsaturated fatty acids from plant sources and less mono-unsaturated fatty acids from animal sources," said Marta Guasch-Ferré, Ph.D., a research associate and one of the lead authors of this study along with Geng Zong, Ph.D., a research fellow. Both are at the Harvard School T.H. Chan of Public Health in Boston.

Mono-unsaturated fats are usually liquid at room temperature and solidify when refrigerated. Sources of plant-based mono-unsaturated fats include olive and other vegetable oils, avocados and many nuts and seeds. Sources of animal-based mono-unsaturated fats include full-fat dairy products, eggs, poultry, red meats and fish.

To assess the impact of mono-unsaturated fatty acids consumption on death from cardiovascular disease and other causes, researchers used data from 63,412 women from the Nurses' Health Study and 29,966 men from the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study. Both studies used detailed food-frequency questionnaires administered every four years to evaluate the composition of the participants' diets. This type of observational study can identify a trend among the participants but cannot prove cause and effect.

During an average 22 years of follow-up, there were 20,672 deaths among participants, 4,588 of them from heart disease. Analyzing the diet information, the researchers found:

Participants with a higher intake of mono-unsaturated fatty acids from plants had a 16 percent lower risk of death from any cause compared to those with lower intakes.
Participants with a higher intake of mono-unsaturated fatty acids from animals had a 21 percent higher risk of death from any cause.
Replacing saturated fats, refined carbohydrates (like simple sugars) or trans fats with an equal number of calories (2 percent -- 5 percent of the total) from mono-unsaturated fatty acids from plants might lower the risk of heart disease deaths and death from any cause between 10 percent and15 percent.
Replacing mono-unsaturated fatty acids from animals with an equal amount of calories (5 percent of the total) of mono-unsaturated fatty acids from animals might lower the risk of heart disease deaths and deaths from any cause between 24 percent to 26 percent.
In the study, the risks were adjusted to account for several known factors that could influence the risk of death, including ethnicity; smoking status; intake of alcohol, fruits and vegetables and total calories; family history of chronic diseases; physical activity; body mass index; and heart disease risk factors when participants enrolled. The results should be interpreted with caution because the study relied on the participants' self-reporting what they ate and because participants consuming higher amounts of plant-based foods may be more health conscious in general.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80321162252.htm

These studies are nothing more or less than propagandizing. Before either study was done, they knew perfectly well that certain meats were associated in this cohort with these poor outcomes. So it's predictable that breaking things down to some of the components, animal fat vs. plant, heterocyclic amines, carnitine and related metabolites, Neu5Gc content of the diet, that are going to go along with the red meat intake are also going to associate with the same outcomes. This might be evidence, but it's not new evidence. In the weight of the evidence, somebody has their thumb on the scale, the same basic observation gets weighted in multiple times.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Mar-22-18, 09:43
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wyatt wyatt is offline
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Wish I could use myself as an example but I have enjoyed living a life of excess and still maintained relatively good health. From my experience it is possibly the overindulgence in red meat, saturated fat, wine, etc. and possibly some underindulgence in certain areas specific to the person that are the problem.

Given that I now have mild NAFLD and gall stones, hindsight is 20/20.

I can imagine doing a study has got to be difficult especially at the start you have the bias of those doing the study.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 07:09
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teaser teaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyatt
From my experience it is possibly the overindulgence in red meat, saturated fat, wine, etc. and possibly some underindulgence in certain areas specific to the person that are the problem.


Sort of a different way to approach this--I don't think meat, saturated fat and such are necessarily causative, although I do think it likely that they're conditionally causative. An obvious example--if somebody indulges their love of meat with a trip to McDonald's, gets a Big Mac, fries, apple pie and a shake. I'm more likely to overeat fried rice with fat and beef in it than boiled white rice. You can have a healthy diet with lots of beef in it, that doesn't presuppose that there aren't baseline diets that can be made worse by the addition of meat--but even there, something has to go, but it doesn't have to be the beef.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 09:19
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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When it comes to processed meats/red meats, I don't think we are talking fine Italian cold cuts like prosciutto and a ribeye steak, are we?

We are talking about hamburgers and bologna. In other words, sandwiches.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 11:53
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wyatt wyatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Sort of a different way to approach this--I don't think meat, saturated fat and such are necessarily causative, although I do think it likely that they're conditionally causative. An obvious example--if somebody indulges their love of meat with a trip to McDonald's, gets a Big Mac, fries, apple pie and a shake. I'm more likely to overeat fried rice with fat and beef in it than boiled white rice. You can have a healthy diet with lots of beef in it, that doesn't presuppose that there aren't baseline diets that can be made worse by the addition of meat--but even there, something has to go, but it doesn't have to be the beef.


I made it seem too specific to meat and saturated fat when I spoke to overconsumption. There are other things that have happened with me, probably related to hormonal imbalance - who knows that can trigger eating uncontrolable amounts of food. Usually for short periods, but there was a time I think I put on 30 pounds just from eating good food, with a couple exceptions.

Last edited by wyatt : Fri, Mar-23-18 at 17:57. Reason: I screwed up
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 12:39
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nawchem nawchem is offline
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I figure man has caught meat, stuck in fire long time. Good enough for me.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 12:42
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teaser teaser is offline
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Taubes wrote in Good Calories Bad Calories about how people couldn't be made to overeat pork chops. Maybe generally true--but put a stack of them in front of me when I'm in the wrong state--even a tiny bit of booze, or if I've been eating a not-so-ketogenic diet, etc. and I can overdo them, do this often enough and I can get fat on them. They're the least fattening food I know, but I still have to approach them a certain way for best results, just cook what I intend to eat, cooking extra to eat later has never worked for me. I once made a week's worth of chocolate coconut fat bomb snacks, then ate it for breakfast. That actually worked out pretty good, I wasn't hungry for anything else the rest of the day, and a friend got his first deer, I helped him carry it to his ATV, I got into a deeper than usual ketosis and found out I performed a lot better that way. But if I want fat bombs for a week, I have to mix a single serving at a time.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 18:07
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wyatt wyatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
"I once made a week's worth of chocolate coconut fat bomb snacks, then ate it for breakfast."


Why do you think that is? At Christmas last year someone made me an entire amazing pumpkin cheesecake because I liked it so much from the year before.

I took it home nervously and proceeded to consume the entire cheesecake the following day. It was like 12 - 15 thousand calories. I have never done anything of that magnitude before. I was both disgusted and proud of myself at the same time.

There is a theory out that overconsuming calories/sugar could be related to mitochondrial health and deuterium.
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 08:22
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teaser teaser is offline
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In mouse studies, they look at how hard animals will work to get food. Make them climb a slope to get at the food. The animals will work harder to get to oreos than they will for plain mouse chow. To a degree, clamp for palatability, and the animals will eat less if the food has to be worked for. I'm the same way with that low carb cheesecake--once it's made, I'm likely to make meals of it (if it lasts past one meal) until it's gone. But if I have to go to the store, get the ingredients, mix them together, wait for it to bake--the effort involved keeps me from bothering, most of the time. A few times I've come home with ingredients, and decided I'd rather just have cream cheese.

If I cook five hamburger patties, I'm liable to eat them all. If I cook two, I'm liable to be happy with that. I'd like more, obviously since pretty repeatably if I cook more I'll eat and enjoy them. But usually I don't want more to the point where I'll bother to cook more. Cooked meat is just more appealing than raw.

Cheese and nuts are common problem foods. One theory is that they are too palatable. It's true that they're palatable, it's also true that by nature they're ready to eat, just as they are. How much effort does it take to fry a couple eggs? Precious little. But if you're feeling a little peckish, even that slight bit of work might drive you towards the cheese vs. the egg, if the egg were the only option, sometimes you might not even bother.

Once a friend stayed at our cottage and brought some big steaks, mine was ridiculous. The barbecue gave out while they were still pretty raw. I like steak every way from totally raw to well-done. So I just started eating mine. I got halfway and was stuffed. My friend fried the remainder with butter. It was like a dessert effect, with the first bite my appetite returned. I got halfway through, full again--my friend fried it again, more of those yummy advanced glycation end products--and I finished the steak. I would have been done with food still on my plate, if he'd left well enough alone the first time, that's pretty rare for me.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 09:15
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wyatt wyatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
In mouse studies, they look at how hard animals will work to get food. Make them climb a slope to get at the food. The animals will work harder to get to oreos than they will for plain mouse chow. To a degree, clamp for palatability, and the animals will eat less if the food has to be worked for. I'm the same way with that low carb cheesecake--once it's made, I'm likely to make meals of it (if it lasts past one meal) until it's gone. But if I have to go to the store, get the ingredients, mix them together, wait for it to bake--the effort involved keeps me from bothering, most of the time. A few times I've come home with ingredients, and decided I'd rather just have cream cheese.

If I cook five hamburger patties, I'm liable to eat them all. If I cook two, I'm liable to be happy with that. I'd like more, obviously since pretty repeatably if I cook more I'll eat and enjoy them. But usually I don't want more to the point where I'll bother to cook more. Cooked meat is just more appealing than raw.

Cheese and nuts are common problem foods. One theory is that they are too palatable. It's true that they're palatable, it's also true that by nature they're ready to eat, just as they are. How much effort does it take to fry a couple eggs? Precious little. But if you're feeling a little peckish, even that slight bit of work might drive you towards the cheese vs. the egg, if the egg were the only option, sometimes you might not even bother.

Once a friend stayed at our cottage and brought some big steaks, mine was ridiculous. The barbecue gave out while they were still pretty raw. I like steak every way from totally raw to well-done. So I just started eating mine. I got halfway and was stuffed. My friend fried the remainder with butter. It was like a dessert effect, with the first bite my appetite returned. I got halfway through, full again--my friend fried it again, more of those yummy advanced glycation end products--and I finished the steak. I would have been done with food still on my plate, if he'd left well enough alone the first time, that's pretty rare for me.


...and here, I thought I was just an oddball with a freakish appetite. It's nice to know I'm in good company, your description and approach to food fir me to a tee.

For the future I will keep in mind my afterthought of having some and immediately throwing the rest away before I can go back to the fridge again and find the remainder to consume.
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 09:18
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyatt
Why do you think that is? At Christmas last year someone made me an entire amazing pumpkin cheesecake because I liked it so much from the year before.

I took it home nervously and proceeded to consume the entire cheesecake the following day. It was like 12 - 15 thousand calories. I have never done anything of that magnitude before. I was both disgusted and proud of myself at the same time.

There is a theory out that overconsuming calories/sugar could be related to mitochondrial health and deuterium.

Honestly, from what I've seen and experienced, aside from the prevalent commonality of carb consumption begetting more and more carb consumption (which could have been a factor with your pumpkin cheesecake, since it surely was made with real sugar), we all have different "trigger foods".

I may eat cheese every single day, but while cheese may trigger binge behavior in some people, it doesn't trigger the all-or-nothing, "one bite is too much, the entire block is never enough" reaction for me. I have some cheese on an omelet for breakfast, maybe some in a dinner recipe, and sometimes a few "cracker cuts" slices makes a good snack (when they give me a break so early at work that it's way it's too early for a real meal, or even a filling snack, but feel like I'd better eat something, or else I know I'll be really hungry before they ever manage to give me another break). I enjoy the cheese, but it doesn't trigger me to eat more and more cheese.

For me, it's nuts (tree nuts, since I don't even like peanuts) that most often evokes the all-or-nothing kind of reaction. I haven't had sugar/starch in quite a while (so long that it tastes awful to me now), but based on my previous decades as a completely out of control high carber, if I ever got used to the taste of sugars and starches again, I can guarantee you those two general categories would start me on an all-out binge again. I don't have that problem when I sweeten LC goodies with stevia. They may taste plenty sweet to me, but the stevia is a different flavor, and doesn't trigger a craving for more sweets, much less sugary sweets. Come to think of it, when I've used sucralose, or saccharin, I don't get that problem either.

My point is that everyone is different, just like Teaser's story with the meat - nearly raw, he reached a limit. Then fried in butter he ate more until he reached another limit. And then cooked some more, he finally reached his final limit because it was all gone.
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  #15   ^
Old Sun, Mar-25-18, 12:19
PaCarolSue PaCarolSue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
They're the least fattening food I know, but I still have to approach them a certain way for best results, just cook what I intend to eat, cooking extra to eat later has never worked for me. I once made a week's worth of chocolate coconut fat bomb snacks, then ate it for breakfast. But if I want fat bombs for a week, I have to mix a single serving at a time.



I find it very interesting when I hear people say that. I thought I was the only one. I always have to be careful to prepare just what I'm going to eat at one sitting. No saving the extras for another day. The same thing happens if I eat in a restaurant and bring home a doggy bag. I find myself finishing it as soon as I get home. Might as well have eaten it in the restaurant.
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