Hi folks, glad I found this forum! I was a pretty intense cyclist (CatIII) up till several years ago when I was in a couple REALLY bad crashes that made it necessary to get an ACL graft on my knee. During rehab, the weight had just flooded on as when I wasn't in PT I was watching tv and eating... just because the riding stopped the eating habits didn't! After rehab, and being released by my surgeon to start riding again, I didn't. Call it PTS, call it whatever, I simply could not even get near the bikes again without shaking. I started at a gym weight training, and then discovered Atkins from a women that worked out with me. I rank going to the lo-carb lifestyle about the best decision I ever made.

But I got to miss riding so much, I was actually dreaming about it. So, I bought a sweet new ride, (marin argenta) figuring there would be no "bad" memories associated with the new bike. Hmmm.. amateur psychology worked! About a month ago I managed to start riding again. I've been trying to work my strength and endurance up again, and knowing it's been a while since I rode I wasn't expecting to have my abilities anywhere near where they were. But after working so hard the last month, going out almost every day, I simply do not have anywhere near the strength or endurance I expected. Anything more than a gentle cruise, or anything more than a REAL short hill and I'm actually bonking.

I had read, and I actually believe it was in one of Dr. Atkins books, that a study had been performed where ketogenic-adapted riders actually performed as well as if not better than the riders eating the "normal" rider diet... you know, that 2 pound bowl of pasta? But man, I just can't see it.... After three years lo-carb, I'm certainly "adjusted" to it, but my athletic performance has dropped lower than I have ever seen it.

I have been unable to find any research done on this subject by the Atkins Center, they are more focused on weight-loss rather than athletic performance, obviously. The only real research I've found has been cyclic ketogenic diets that work well for weight training but are totally not suited for endurance work. Has anyone found any research on just how much carbs would be needed to up the performance level? Anyone successfully try any powergels or drinks during endurance sports without having fat come back? (shudder....)

Talk to everyone later...

sk

I race bicycles and do triathlons and am doing Atkins as well. I know the bonk you are feeling and for me it only comes after an intense effort. If I eat enough carbs (by way of berries and veggies) then I do not bonk. It seems to be the consensus of those here that it is because there is no real glycegen store left in the muscle to give you the burst of energy required when making a hard effort. Most people here including myself have increased carbs to provide the needed glycogen.
I have found that a steady effort without any type of interval is easy to maintain and find that endurance at a steady pace is easy to do on Atkins. My understanding of this is because the body can convert the fat to fuel the muscle at a rate fast enough for a steady pace but not fast enough for a hard interval.

There are a couple of other threads on this board about this from about a month ago.

I never made cat III. cat IV was scary enough!

I'm an advanced "hacker". LOL So far this year I am averaging about 200 km a week on the bike. Solo I ride about a 28-30 kph average on a circle route depending on the winds. Not many hills.

That being said, I am up to about 60 carb grams average a day. Additionally, on rides of, say, 50 km or more I will add more carbs to the tune of about 20 or so. The last couple weeks I did some metric century rides and on those day I averaged around 200 carb grams for those days. I am not too worried about the type of carbs on those days, or at least for the "extra" carbs anyway. I use Carb Boom gel, power bars, gatoraid, and my own home-made sports drink. I've seen no adverse reactions to this approach. After these bigger rides I usually have something like a sweet potato.

On the longer rides I use a HRM to control my pace but I'm still able to manage a consistant 26-28km pace from start to finish minus the rest stops and that is without drafting. Given my weight, my HRM says I typically burn about 900 kcals per hour.

Hope this helps a bit. YMMV

I too have experienced this lack of stamina, and it has been noted by my one of my riding buddies when it comes to hills where I use to excel, now I fade.

When are you taking these carbs? I've noted other links stating 1/2 hour to 45 minutes before your work out. tried that but it doesn't seem to make difference. Currently at 60 carbs a day.

Hey guys, thanks for responding. I just slogged through a deep search on past posts as Dug mentioned and yeah, this does seem to be an ongoing concern. Tomorrow I'm gonna try some gatoraid, Cue-Bald (hmmm .... ur doing 200k a week and you call yourself a "hacker"? Hah! Sounds like you'd kill a couple "club riders" around here!) I have a route to go tomorrow that's kinda flat so I can ride a while down on the aeros, but it's west into the wind... good test of endurance, thats for sure, especially if it's another 90 degree day. I'm going to try to keep actual records of my performance and intakes, in talking with some of the "real" riders over at the velodrome I found there's a lot of interest in lower-carb nutrition but no one is really sure just what's needed.

I'd love to see someone (or an institution of some sort) do a hard-nosed, scientific study for endurance athletes (riders, runners, triathletes, etc...) on lower carb living... so far I haven't found any, but I'm going to continue looking!

Went 30 miles today; used 1/2 mix gatorade and water. Absolutely helped, I'm also upping my daily fat intake... I think I was doing a bit too much protein in relation to my fats.

talk to ya later...

sk

Why not simply switching to another kind of low-carb diet? I'm on a 40% fat diet with 250g/day very low glycemic index carbohydrate. My bf is around 8% and my athletic performance is excellent.

Romeo,

I think "simply switching" isn't all that simple for all. Unless someone wants to be a "ditto head" I think we all have to experiment with the best form of LC eating that fits our needs. Though I list myself as ATKINS, I have modified it a bit to find a good balance.

HOWEVER, I too am starting to look at increasing my carbs a bit more and using the glycemic index as a way to pick the carbs that will be best for me. Problem is I can't seem to find a coherant glycemic index/glycemic impact list that is user friendly. Do you have any suggestions on that?

TANX!

I think you are looking in the right direction. Romeo makes a very good point about different LC plans and glycemic index implications.

In the last 12 days I have had a couple major rides and have logged nearly 340 km and on a couple Saturday metric century rides I found myself at nearly 250 g of carbs on those days. On thing that I do is track my ketosis levels after hard rides to see if I am "way purple". LOL My goal is to eat enough carbs that I am barely purple or even negative by the following day (assuming it is a rest day) to see if I have taken in too many. I'm not sure it is scientific but it is adding more information to my library.

BTW, I found that after each of the 110K rides (both with some serious climbs) I was able to do an "easy" 40-50 km ride the next day without feeling dead legs at all. I should also note that where I am it is sooooo flat that if the winds are calm, an EASY ride is easy to do. LOL

Hi all,

I am so glad I found this thread! I just started triathlon this year, after years of cycling. I started controlled carbs about 2 weeks ago, and my performance in all three sports has definitely declined. I bonk quickly, and have no energy bursts on hills, which is a problem because my second tri is next week and is all hills.

I now use carbs (plain yogurt) in my recovery smoothie, and have started having a sandwich somethimes.

I am going to add in complex carbs, like whole wheat pasta, and lots more fruit and veg than Atkins calls for.

Now, after that long-winded intro...at what point do those of you with more LC experience ingest carbs before a workout? Is anyone carbo-loading before a race/event?

I started back with Gatorade, and hammergel on long rides, with noticable improvement.

Thanks so much all!

The fact is that I had forgotten most of you had weight problems. I beleive though that a restricted carb approach wouldn't be as hard of the system while allowing weight loss. The only difference is that it will take more time. Ketogenic diet has a muscle sparing effect which has not a low carb diet. Too much sport is also very taxing for the body. Weight training with minimum intense cardio workout has proven very efficient for fat loss when combined with an appropriate diet.

jray

Welcome.

I don't carbo load like I use to but it does depend on what my goals are for a particular ride. On LSD (Long Slow Distance) rides I don't do much at all. I tend to stick with my 60ish grams a day and if I keep my HR down in the 140 to 153 range I am good for 2 - 3 hours. I do carry a power bar and Carb Boom packet just in case I bonk but that hasn't been the case. On the intense rides I do up my carbs. Some upping before the ride but most during or after the ride. I'm still experimenting. On LSD rides of 4-7 hours I don't get too worried at all about the amount of carbs but I don't go crazy either.

i have some questions, simply because im outrageously curious.. i hope you dont mind a newbie butting into the thread

1) whats your definition of a bonk?

2) right now im only going 4 miles.. but i intend on going greater distances.. currently i am at 20g of carbs.. at what distance should i begin to raise carb levels (for future reference and of course for cycling days only im assuming)

3) this is really a note.. i noticed the next day after FIRST riding (in other words i hadnt used my treadmill or a bike or anything like it for a loooooong time although my job requires walking) I felt no fatigue, no muscle soreness.. i just felt great! it used to be that i would DREAD starting a workout routine because the next day would always hurt so bad.. is that what this means: "Ketogenic diet has a muscle sparing effect"?

thanks for all the info!!!

Hello Peapod,

I'm not sure what Romeo meant about "muscle sparing". Perhaps he can expand on that.

Bonk is the cyclist term for when you lose your energy to cycle at a normal pace. It can be as extreme as a fall-off-the-bike-I'm-toasted situation to "dead legs" depending on how serious the condition is. Several factors come in to play but generally it is caused by depleting your energy supplies out of your body and you are not able to generate new energy supplies needed to continue performing. With LC eating, if you keep your exercise levels "moderate", you should be able to sustain those efforts for a reasonably long period of time because you are use to converting fat to energy more efficiently than if you weren't LC. However, as you move your exercise level up to higher intensity, you start having to draw more on blood sugars and glycegin stores to keep up the effort. When that occurs and you use them all up...you bonk. Hydration levels, overall fitness, exteme weather, level of exertion are all factors that can have a major impact on how quickly you could reach this level.

So, the great debates about LC eating, intense exercise, and additional carbs is joined. LOL

A couple thoughts first. While on induction, don't push exercise too hard. You need to get your body switched over to LC eating. Move from induction soon if you plan to really take on serious exercise. However, light exercise and induction are fine. Listen to your body.

OK, raising carbs is more important with exertion levels than it is with distance. If you are just tooling around at 8-10 MPH for an hour, 5 days a week or so, you shouldn't need to increase carbs above your OWL or maintainance levels. If you do, only a small addition of GOOD carbs is needed.

If you start to really pound the road, say increasing speeds above 14 mph and/or 2 hours a day on the bike, you will want to consider adding even more carbs on a daily basis PLUS, on "hard" rides maybe more. Again, listen to your body, experiment with purpose, keep track of what works, learn from it all. I did a 40 mile ride last night in less than 2 hours thus my needs are different than you. I took in nearly 110 G of carbs yesterday. My target daily average is about 60. Get my drift?

Some people seem to think that Atkins (or other LC plans) are a "one size fits all" affair but that isn't true. We all need to take ownership and adapt these diets to our specific needs. As you should see from my comments on your other topic, I can be rather...technical. You don't need to be as techincal as me but you do want to find a way to keep track of your progress and find what works for you.

Hi Peapod, and welcome to the wonderful world of cycling! It is the greatest sport

Bonk: Totally depleted muscle stores of glycogen, ie the fuel that makes you go. Bonking is the worst. You feel lethargic, no energy, basically like cr*p. It is worst when it hits 15 miles from home.

I am focusing on some carbs before workout, but as cue-bald writes, ingestion will most likely be of highest benefit after a workout, as part of a complete recovery. Muscles are most receptive to (good) carbs and protein within 1-2 hours after workout.

This is where I need to focus. I am currently working out 10-12 hours a week, 50+ miles bike, 12 miles run, and 3.5-5 miles swim weekly.

For recovery up to this point, I tried to stay LC, but it is not working at all, to the point that I feel on the edge of overtraining (which I'm not) with disturbed sleep.

Someone wrote earlier to focus not so much on LC, but on GI (glycemic index). I think this is the direction I am heading, due to the recovery (or lack thereof) issues. I mean really, is a banana that bad when you're looking at a 50 mile ride?