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  #181   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 03:29
Duparc's Avatar
Duparc Duparc is offline
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Plan: self-designed
Stats: 216/189/190 Male tad under 6'
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CharlyA: Humanity is not deliberately 'struggling' to break free from this old world of ours but it does appear to be evolving along this course. Contrary to your views, my sentiments are not compensatory for repressed feeling but rather based on what is before our eyes. I am at peace with myself and with our self-healing planet which I regard as the immaculate conception and it could just be the 'Garden of Eden' to which we are all seeking; who really knows, but let's not discard the possiblity. From what made us seems to be taking us to where we are going. If you find difficulty in believing this or that we humans are the pinnacle of evolution then why are we so gifted intellectually and dexterously advanced in relation to other species? There just might be some reason behind it which is beyond our credence. Those suggestions are based solely on observable signs that are scattered around us like confetti for all to see. Like yourself, I am only a witness.

Last edited by Duparc : Wed, Mar-01-06 at 03:41.
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  #182   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 08:00
PlaneCrazy's Avatar
PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
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Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
Stats: 260/260/190 Male 71 inches
BF:Getting/Much/Bette
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Wow. A couple of points to address some of things brought up above.

Historically, there's been a lot of talk about humans being the height of creation, the master animals, the pinnicle of evolution. The assumption underlying those statements is that there is a value judgement. This thinking leads to the idea that we are so special that we are somehow seperate from our environment. I happen to disagree with this conclusion.

Our specialness within the natural world is that we are the only species that actively model our world in order to change it. We are the only species that we've been able to discover that not only can think through changes, but we can make models of the natural world in order to understand better how it all works. Every other species we've ever studied is primarily reactive. Some are more adaptable than others and can exploit new situations they find themselves in.

Think of the macaques in Japan who learned that the yams humans were feeding them tasted better when washed in salty sea water. This behavior was then taught from mother to child so that it is a behavior of the groups years later. The difference between this adaptation and human behavior is that we may make accidental discoveries like this, but then we are able to extrapolate from that experience that perhaps if we dip other foods in salt water they'd taste better. We can deduce general ideas, models, of our world and create new things from those models. No other species has ever been shown to do that. In other words, no other species has science.

Now, whether that behavior is "special" or not is a value judgement. There is no question that we have taken this ability and used it for ill. As I said before, from the very first artificial extension of our abilities, whether it was sharp sticks, fire or stone tools, that technological advance could be used for good AND ill. This remains true to this day.

And as the extensions to our powers grows in strength and impact, the potential for harm also grows. This also relates to our ability to destroy ourselves through war, pollution, etc... But the hopeful aspect to all of this is that along with the problems, once we've identified them as problems, comes the ability to use the same modeling to derive solutions. Read the latest issue of Scientific American to see at least one example. There's an article on the ability to create designer molecules that "eat" pollution and turn some of the deadliest toxins in existence into harmless substances. Yes, technology created these toxins, but we can also create ways to nutralize the damage that's been done, and to find better replacements as we better understand the impacts of what we've done. As our ability to model the universe increases, our ability to determine these negative impacts before they happen.

In the end, it's a matter of what happens first, we find better ways of dealing with the mess we've made, or our experimentation with insufficient evidence of impacts will poison us all. This goes back to the "destroying the earth" statement. It comes down to this, the Earth will survive without us (short of us figuring out a way to destroy the actual planet). It may be denuded of most life, it may be poisoned, but give it a few million years and it will be right as rain. We, on the other hand, while hardy and adaptive, can only really live in a fairly narrow band of environments. So, I'm not too worried about the Earth, but I am more worried about our ability to survive. I'd like to see us be good stewards of what we've got, but we can easily tie good care of the environment back to selfish reasons. (and I believe we're the stewards of the environment not from any religious reasons, but because we have the ability to destroy it. With great power comes great responsibility)

As for power issues, yes, energy is a major challenge facing us. The good news is that we're developing much better, more efficient, lighter, cheaper sources of energy (nano-designed, carbon-tube solar panels and nano-tech batteries...) at the same time as we're about to break into a whole different realm of computer, quantum computing, that will actually require much less power to run. Those huge, hot, electricity-hog server farms that run things like the internet, Google, etc. will be as extinct in 2025 as the Neaderthal is today.

Some very persuasive research has shown that our technological capacities have followed a pretty reliable trend since the very earliest evidence of hominids. This trend is not linear, it is logrithmic. What that means is that while in the short term it seems that we're developing technology along at a fairly regular pace, in reality that pace is times two, rather than plus two every couple of years. And as we start to go around the knee of the curve, these continuous advances actually increase the factor by which we are developing. How long did it take 1/4 of the population to adopt the telephone? How long did it take 1/4 of the population to adopt the web? Adoption rates are increasing, innovation rates are increasing.

In mathmatical terms, if we count the technical development rate of the year 2000 as x, if things were linear, we would expect 100x amount of technical development over the 21st century at year 2000 rates. Instead, with our increasing rate along with the logrithmic nature of development, we will actually have 20,000 years of development over the 21st century at year 2000 rates. It is our responsibility to ensure that this development does work to better the human condition, which does include our environment.

I personally believe that the last two hundred years will be seen as a watershed with the industrial revolution of the last 150 years seen as a horribly destructive period of human history that we'll survive, but will be digging ourselves out of for a while.

Plane
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  #183   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 12:43
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
I personally believe that the last two hundred years will be seen as a watershed with the industrial revolution of the last 150 years seen as a horribly destructive period of human history that we'll survive, but will be digging ourselves out of for a while.

Plane
Yes. I got us on this energy crisis mode... I was only asking if we would be sleeping more when the lights had to go out during "off-hours". And if we would be eating differently due to transportation costs. I think we will HAVE to get serious with conservation if we are going to ward off a lot of this "horrible destruction" to our way of life. I really don't think it is wise to continue the mass consumption and mindless use of resources that we have been engaged in for the last several decades.
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  #184   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 14:15
PlaneCrazy's Avatar
PlaneCrazy PlaneCrazy is offline
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Posts: 1,146
 
Plan: Modified Paleo Atkins
Stats: 260/260/190 Male 71 inches
BF:Getting/Much/Bette
Progress: 0%
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaleoDeano
I really don't think it is wise to continue the mass consumption and mindless use of resources that we have been engaged in for the last several decades.


Totally agree. What I'm hoping for is a more mindful existence on the planet.

One very mind-bending possibility (and much more likely than flying cars) beginning sometime in the next 50 years is what's called Nano-based-manufacturing. Essentially, a desktop device using robots less than 100 nanometers across will be able to build anything we can design molecule by molecule from readily available raw material. They could also recycle anything unwanted the same way into the same raw material. The value will no longer be in the actual manufacturing of objects, but instead in the information needed to manufacture them, i.e. the design. With the right design we can build anything. There's the double-edged sword. "Anything" can include a whole lot of nasty things, or it could provide practically unlimited food, medicine, clothing from raw material that is readily available even in old landfills, or polluted former industrial sites. (mainly carbon, hydrogen, etc...)

These nano-bots can potentially run on all kinds of fuels. One very successful area of research is for them to use ATP, the same fuel we use internally for our cells. This could help fuel medical nano-bots that could work from within our bodies to correct errent cell growth, eliminate DNA transcription errors in normal cell reproduction (one major source of aging), or rebuild destroyed structures like from Parkinsons, or stroke, or massive nerve damage.

Regardless, the amount of energy needed for manufacturing will drastically be reduced, get us away from fossil fuels, and be much, much cleaner. The trick will be to survive until we get there, and to work very hard to reduce the possibly dangerous uses of the technology. There's no putting the genie back into the bottle. If we try and squash the technology, we'll just end up driving it underground to less responsible scientists and entities.

I'm not completely optimistic about the future, but I do believe that there might be some hope. Of course, when I read about the merging of biological and non-biological intelliegence to make us increadily smarter and able to think faster, I just think that most people will just become more powerfully stupid and able to be shallow, idiotic and immature that much faster.

Plane
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  #185   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 15:29
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: Muscle Centric
Stats: 238/153/160 Female 5'10"
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Location: UK
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Great thread! ... especially as I've just started reading 'Lights Out' myself.


Just thought that those reading here might be interested in this little anecdote:

I am currently taking part in the Breakthrough Generations Study in the UK, which is a study researching the causes of breast cancer.

I have just had to complete a very thorough questionnaire, and one of the sections dealt with sleep patterns:

Over the past year, what time do you usually go to sleep? When do you wake up?
Over the past year, how many hours do you usually sleep at night? (Give an average)
On average over the last year, how dark has the room been in which you sleep? - light enough to read, light enough to see across the room but not read, light enough to see your hand in front of you but not to see across the room, too dark to see anything, or you wear a mask.
On average in recent months, how many times per night have you woken up and put the lights on or gone into a bright room?

The same questions are asked about other periods of your life - i.e., childhood, adolescence, 20s etc., and a further group of questions deals with shift work, night working etc.


I find it extremely interesting that they are thinking along these lines with regard to cancer research.
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  #186   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 15:31
lizzyLC's Avatar
lizzyLC lizzyLC is offline
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Plan: LC
Stats: 157/155/135 Female 5'6
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I just started Lights Out - fascinating !!
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  #187   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 15:57
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
I find it extremely interesting that they are thinking along these lines with regard to cancer research.
Demi, that is so interesting that they are asking these questions! I think I better put up that black plastic, I got awhile ago, over my bedroom windows ASAP!
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  #188   ^
Old Wed, Mar-01-06, 16:01
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlaneCrazy
when I read about the merging of biological and non-biological intelliegence to make us increadily smarter and able to think faster, I just think that most people will just become more powerfully stupid and able to be shallow, idiotic and immature that much faster.

Plane
Yah... that is what would happen, no doubt! If there is a trend toward non-living entities (machines) that can reproduce themselves and take over the world, etc. I will be glad to die in the next 50 years! I guess I am too much a "naturalist"/"spiritualist" at heart! I love computers and such, but only if I can leave them and go backpacking way back into the wilderness and see other LIFE forms!

And while I think it is cool to try and understand things... it is also wise to realize we can never understand things fully (that is the beauty of the mystery of things... otherwise, with nothing more to discover, we would be bored to tears!).
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  #189   ^
Old Sat, Mar-04-06, 06:26
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: Muscle Centric
Stats: 238/153/160 Female 5'10"
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Progress: 109%
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A very interesting article with regard to research into how lack of sleep affects hormones that control appetite has appeared in the UK media this morning:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=287970
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  #190   ^
Old Sat, Mar-04-06, 12:16
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Great article, Demi! Thanks for sharing!
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  #191   ^
Old Mon, Mar-06-06, 03:10
Duparc's Avatar
Duparc Duparc is offline
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Plan: self-designed
Stats: 216/189/190 Male tad under 6'
BF:
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Location: Kirriemuir, Scotland
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Demi: An interesting article to which I concur as I noticed that if I am sleepy my concentration ebbs and that I might also begin to feel hungry but, then, my experience says to me, so what?

Those people whom I know who are chronically obese, to my knowledge, would, given the opportunity, sleep most of the day and do tend to stay in bed if not required to arise for other reasons. Those in their youth who are slim (which used to be the norm) would easily sleep 12 hours a day if there was nothing to compel them to get out of bed. My observations tell me that the difference here is in energy levels, and energy is a feature that is readily affected by the quality of diet. As for myself, if I am on a diet or controlling my food intake, then I require less sleep as my energy levels tend to surge and with this surge in energy so my weight drops.

Furthermore, while sleep can help to solve problems so too can wakefulness if one learns how to clear the mind of extraneous concerns and allow it to relax. It almost seems as if we cannot force the mind into being creative yet creative it will be if we give it the freedom to be so which probably happens during sleep.

While there is, undoubtedly, a connection between sleep and weight, my suspicious is that it is only a loose one and one that has not yet been properly explored.
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  #192   ^
Old Mon, Mar-06-06, 07:02
Meg_S Meg_S is offline
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Plan: lots of meat
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 5 10"
BF:goal: 17%
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THAT is a good point too Duparc. I've noticed that when on very restricted caloric intakes (for me very restricted carbs go along with this) bpth my physical and mental, ESPECIALLY mental energy and creativity has surged. During these periods I went to bed later than normal, and easily woke and became active early in the am. The hungrier I am (chronically) the brighter I feel. My problem is that after a long enough period of restriction I hit a point where I become obsessed with food and thoughts of food completely take over my mind leaving little room for much else.
A little off topic, sorry.
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  #193   ^
Old Tue, Mar-07-06, 14:45
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: Muscle Centric
Stats: 238/153/160 Female 5'10"
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OK, have just finished reading Lights Out - thoroughly enjoyed it and I did think it made some salient points.

However, my thought is this ~ wouldn't moonlight/starlight have meant that it wasn't totally dark at night for our ancestors either??
(I can't remember if this point has already been touched on here, so apologies if I'm repeating it).

Which leads me on to why we should need to sleep in total darkness now (as well as making sure that we do not expose any part of our skin)? - I'm just wondering if something as simple as wearing a sleep mask would be sufficient for the purpose.
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  #194   ^
Old Tue, Mar-07-06, 14:48
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi
wouldn't moonlight/starlight have meant that it wasn't totally dark at night for our ancestors either??
But, if they were sleeping in caves...
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  #195   ^
Old Tue, Mar-07-06, 14:56
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
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Plan: Muscle Centric
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Quote:
Originally posted by PaleoDeano
But, if they were sleeping in caves...

But it could also depend on how deep the caves were ....
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