Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > Low-Carb War Zone
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #931   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 00:33
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,770
 
Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
BF:very low
Progress: 100%
Location: Cardiff
Default

I'll re-post something here from the old CR archives by MR. I'm sure he wont mind lol. It seems that high er fat or protein mice lived longer, had less cancer... It didn't do anything amazing to max lifespan, but only increase average a bit (still very good!). Hence why I increased my protein intake and decreased my carb. Note that 69% of energy from fat decreased lifespan in CR rodents

efore I take too much flak, note the QUESTION MARK at the end of my post.

I've been working my way thru' Weindruch and Walford's _The Retardation..._, which I have out on interlibrary loan. I knew that various macronutrient combos had failed to improve maximum lifespan gains, but just assumed (sicne I'd never heard anything either way on the subject) that no one had bothered looking at a broad variety of combinations and seeing what other health effects (esp. av'g LS) might accrue. It is Sears' thesis that any CRON will slow aging, but that the high P:C ratio will also give other benefits. As Sears presents it, it's a purely argumentative case, yet It appears we've had concrete experimental data showing something like this to be true for over three decades.

Op cit, p. 54: "Ross and Bras ... balanced the calorie intakes ... of rats subjected to EDR but varied the casein:sucrose ratio ... The average LS of the rats on DR increased as the amount of protein in the diet increased, suggesting that the effects of DR on LS may be enhanced by diets high in protein content. A later report (Davis et al, 1983) supports this view."

P. 81: "The DR rats fed the high protein diet [51% casein!] displayed a lower risk of developing malignant epithelial tumors than DR rats fed the low protein diet. Adrenal and thyroiid tumor morbidity both inversely related to dietary protin among the Dr groups. In short, BOTH LS AND TUMOR DATA SUGGEST THAT HIGH-PROTEIN DIETS ACCENTUATED THE BENEFITS OF DR [italics, presumably obviously, mine]."

p. 105: "the inhibition of skin tumors was greater for mice energy restricted ONLY VIA CARBOHYDRATES than for those restricted in all componenets [my italics]."

p.108ff: Data showing that a high-percentage fat diet does not increase tumors on CRON, even tho the form of fat used -- corn oil -- is acknowledged by W&W to be a particularily carcinogenic one when fed ad lib. If they used a balanced EFA mix, I wonder if it would show the REVERSE...?

OTOH, "Variation in proti\en level in dr MICE [my italics] did not alter longevity" -p.59.

Second post

"Kubo ... found that LSs were most strikingly prolonged by DR when moderate intakes (38% of energy as fat) and not very high intakes of fat (69% of energy of fat) were used." p. 59

"High fat diets are used more efficiently than are low fat ones... Quite probably the severity of the [CR] tolerable by animals could be increased by feeding high fat diets... whether this would further increase lifespan is worthy of study [see above quote: evidently, it DOES] ...*what* (not just how much) is eaten affects metabolism." -255

Third post

the rodent data suggest that the most benefits are derived, IN RODENTS, from a relatively high-protein, high-fat diet, with minimal carb -- ie, a much more "Zoneish" diet that W&W actually reccomend for human experimentation. This seems a case of refusal to acknowledge the data before them. And it gives a concrete level of support for Sears' (purely argumentative) case that the Zone program (or something rather like it) would give additional health and longevity benefits over and above the increase in max lifespan to be had from some other CRON program. Compared to 51% pro and 38% cho, even SEARS' reccomendations seem conservative, let alone Walford's!

Also, as I've noted before, the Zone is based on a high (~0.75) P:C ratio, NOT a specific 40:30:30 diet for all (as the folks at Balance Bar and People magazine would have us believe). In _Mastering..._ and _The Anti-Aging Zone_, Sears spells this out quite clearly, stating how and why to alter the p, c, and f in your diet to hit the right proportions for each individual, based on both subjective and objective criteria

The animals LIVE LONGER on a higher-fat (38%!) diet
than a lower (or higher (61%)) one.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #932   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 00:50
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,770
 
Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
BF:very low
Progress: 100%
Location: Cardiff
Default

Another interesting post on Rodents

MR
"Actually, the animal evidence is that CRONed critters do NOT have lowered metabolism, except transiently: their metabolic rate goes down briefly (weeks to months) and then returns to full speed."
Reply With Quote
  #933   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 01:12
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,770
 
Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
BF:very low
Progress: 100%
Location: Cardiff
Default

Check out this guy, I've posted it before... but for those who missed it or couldn't be bothered watching.

Yesterday's winning vote sent us to do yoga with 84-year-old Fumiyasu Yamakawa. < okinawan
(wait for the video to load and press play )
VIDEO > http://magma.nationalgeographic.com.../daily_vid.html



Catch many 84 year olds in the US doing this sort of exercise?

Its amazing that the okinawans spend 97% of their lives, on average, free of any disabilities! Compressed morbidity, exactly what CR does.

Last edited by Whoa182 : Thu, Nov-23-06 at 01:51.
Reply With Quote
  #934   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 02:07
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,770
 
Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
BF:very low
Progress: 100%
Location: Cardiff
Default

EDIT: Nevermind, audio seems to be extremely slow at loading, even at 21kbps stream!

Last edited by Whoa182 : Thu, Nov-23-06 at 02:40.
Reply With Quote
  #935   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 05:02
athena11's Avatar
athena11 athena11 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,388
 
Plan: semi-low carb
Stats: 127/127/114 Female 65
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Great Lakes
Default Okinawans are amazing!

Actually, I have that National Geographic somewhere. I saved it because it was just a great issue. (Moving currently, so it's boxed somewhere.)

This topic has ignited my interest in pursuing the practices of stress-reducing tactics and exercises to improve movement (stretches, etc?) I would love to take a yoga class at some point.
Reply With Quote
  #936   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 07:51
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikdriver

The simple fact is we are really ignorant about the subject of nutrition, so folks making absolute claims in this thread are, well, making absolute claims in the absence of definitive evidence, to be polite.



But the CRon studies Kwikdriver. So many studies. They must be right . It's so.... scientific. Why would macronutrient ratio matter? Humans are omnivores like rats after all. Of course macronutrient ratio has no bearing on CRon mechanisms.

Actually I think part of the problem is that Whoa really does think the studies he keeps quoting are definitive evidence for his arguments. That may be why he keeps asking for 'proof' that macronutrient ratio matters to Calorie restriction longevity improvements.

Last edited by kneebrace : Thu, Nov-23-06 at 08:00.
Reply With Quote
  #937   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 09:10
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValerieL
No, it doesn't. He's still just saying that only CR produces documentable longevity benefits. If you've got some studies that prove low-carb does the same thing, pony them up and we'll talk.

In the meantime, this... reinforces my original point. This discussion is degrading into name-calling and intolerance.

Val


There are no definitive 'studies' that prove low carb is healthier than high carb either. I'm afraid you'd be waiting a long time for those ponies too .Yet this forum is about people discovering that current mainstream nutritional research hasn't got a clue.

Btw. I've never doubted that only CR produces documentable longevity benefits. The issue here is the 'hardline stance' (by his own admission) that macronutrient ratio is irrelevant to the degree of long term calorie restriction necessary to get the CR/ max longevity increment ball rolling.

I'm still a bit mystified by why Whoa is taking this hardline position on a low carb forum. At the very least he could recognize that the moderate calorie restriction that is automatic on a low carb diet may well produce some longevity improvement and that the calorie restriction necessary for the most longevity improvement may well also be influenced by macronutrient ratio. The fact that current primate CRon research has not looked at macronutrient ration in CRon processes at all should at least give him pause. Sure it's looked at Rodents. Last time I looked, humans were primates.

But no. It's calories, just calories. Doesn't he have a life? Rosebud put it best when she asked many, many posts ago in this thread: 'Maybe Whoa is just trying to save us poor low carbers from our errant ways'.

I personally don't need saving. Me and most of the members of this forum. I'm healthier than I've ever thought possible after changing from a low fat high carb unprocessed food diet to a high fat/ very low carb diet four years ago. Being told on a low carb board that I'd be just as healthy and would live much longer on a starvation high carb diet with all the 'known' nutrients is a bit sad. Particularly when you actually take a look at the poor fellow, or (just so you don't feel tempted by the 'name calling' accusation again Valerie ) any other high carb severe CRonied mammal.

Observing that Whoa or any of the CRonies I've seen photographs of, or the long term CR'd primates, look emaciated is just stating the obvious. Why do you think it's namecalling?. I mean Whoa is trying to recommend his version of CR as a good idea. I don't think it is, for precisely the reason of it's effects on body composition. It's interesting, sure. But to pretend it's 'absolutely' the best way to get the benefits of CR, just because the CRon research thus far just hasn't looked in the right places is almost as tragic (IMHO) as the physical effect it has on the animals who practice it (or are forced to practice it).

Let's face it Valerie,- how did you put it? - 'ponying up' the studies that would prove that low carb is healthier than higher carb would be just as impossible as proving that Whoa's dietary approach is unnecessary and emaciating.

But as I said before, he could just look in the mirror.

Last edited by kneebrace : Thu, Nov-23-06 at 09:22.
Reply With Quote
  #938   ^
Old Thu, Nov-23-06, 12:54
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default

In the last few days this thread attracted a lot of insults and abuse, which kept us working on deletions, suspensions and warnings, so we decided to close it for a week, or more if needed. There was great debate and information in this thread until it got too personal for some.

Please do not drag this issue elsewhere on the forum with further insults against members and/or moderators, and familiarize yourself with our forum rules:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/faq.php?...faq_forum_rules
Reply With Quote
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Facts About Dr. Atkins Diet Calorie Intake fern2340 LC Research/Media 8 Wed, Mar-01-06 03:21
increased calorie needs Colleenski Beginner/Low Intensity 7 Tue, Sep-20-05 23:46
Question about calorie deficits and "starvation mode" Big Dog Beginner/Low Intensity 1 Fri, Oct-11-02 20:17
calorie tracking software? tomoolson General Low-Carb 6 Sun, Jul-07-02 11:25
Calorie intake John19 Newbies' Questions 4 Fri, Jan-18-02 23:43


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:08.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.