Q: I am mixed up -- what type (and amount) of carbs should I consume after my workout? I'm trying to build muscle and lose fat and I've heard and read that I need around 100 grams of sugar after my workout to really recover and grow?

A: Nonsense. One hundred grams of sugar? If you want to do that, eat 5 or 6 Snickers Bars, as they taste the best. I don't buy this 100-g crap. You need slow burn or low glycemic carbs if your quest is maximum muscle gain, even after workouts. The window of opportunity does not mean window of stupidity. If you want to lose fat or build muscle and lose fat at the same time you'd be much advised to utilize a body process known as neoglucogenesis (the utilization of fats and / or proteins instead of carbs or glucose to replenish your glycogen stores.) Your body has the ability to convert fat into glycogen through this process. And if you are trying to burn fat, then this should be your whole goal, and the way to achieve it is by NOT consuming carbs (no more than 25 grams anyway) after your workout. On the flip side, if you ingest a big load of carbs (especially simple sugars) after your workout, any fat burning you stimulated from the workout will be stopped dead in its tracks. Naturally, we feel that the hydrolysates or predigested proteins and BCAA's that you find in Muscle Provider or Mass Aminos, work best. When you eat a large amount of sugary carbs, you release a large amount of insulin. Insulin does it's best to stabilize things by driving sugar, or glucose, into muscle cells (in the very best case scenario). The trouble is, like paper grocery store sacks filled to the breaking point with Twinkies, the muscle cells can only hold so much. Excesses of glucose are converted into fatty acids and triglycerides by the liver and fat tissue. The high insulin and glycogen concentrations induce the production and storage of fat. As if that weren't bad enough, insulin counteracts the effects of Human Growth Hormone (HGH). Although insulin is mildly anabolic (it probably should be called FAT-ABOLIC), HGH is significantly anabolic and promotes fat loss. Of the two, you'd much rather have high levels of HGH circulating through your blood.

From: www.bodymusclejournal.com

J.

P.S. Neoglucogenesis is also known as Gluconeogenesis.

There may be some perfectly valid reasons to consume a substantial amount of high-GI carb immediately post lifting, especially if you are a man.

As I understand it, the insulin response is anabolic, and stimulates a testosterone response which is ALSO anabolic.

Slower, low-GI foods, while they may be perceived as healthier, will not clear the system fast enough to allow for the insulin spike to do its good work and instead, may lead to fat storage problems that are less likely to be seen with faster carbs because these slower carbs will not stimulate a significant testosterone response (which raises metabolism because of the anabolic response in the muscles), and because the slower carbs will continue to trickle glucose into the system for hours after being consumed (thus preventing fat-burning).

That's right - that brown rice consumed after lifting may PREVENT maximizing the anabolic response, and may ALSO prevent the body from returning quickly to fat-burning. Since the anabolic response is the part that allows for a continuing higher metabolism, it is possible that this could mean you are only shooting yourself in the foot.

That being said, not all sugars are the same. Typical guidelines suggest fat-free sources of dextrose so as to allow for the fastest and cleanest delivery. The snickers bars would probably be too high in fat and protein to be effective.

This is a very inefficient process. It would also be fairly expensive. You would have to eat an incredible amount of protein and fat to get enough usable glucose. Why not just eat carb to refill glycogen?

Uh... you want to be anabolic after your workout. You need insulin to drive protein and carb into your muscles.

That article made no sense to me. As Built just mentioned, you want an insulin spike after your workout.

I think the part of the article about insulin negatively affecting HGH is worth noting. If you must have carbs post workout then you might want to wait about an hour to allow maximum HGH secretion to occur. Personally, I wait about 45 mins - 1 hour even though I'm eating fat and protein (and a cup of LC veggies).
It has been accepted dogma that eating hi GI carbs and quick protein post workout is helpful... but with knowlege of how that affects HGH... Right now, it's a guessing game about which is more benificial.
I'm putting my money on the HGH being better... but I could be wrong.

You can always have the carbs/insulin spike/testosterone release at another time. HGH is 'only' post workout and during the first 90 mins of sleep.

Just to clarify - I do understand this to be true...IF you're a boy.

I DON'T do this, because, as I understand it, I don't have enough testosterone to stimulate a sufficient anabolic response. Women tend to rely more heavily upon GH for our anabolism. I don't take in post workout carbs because in MY body, I get spillover into fat stores, but I DO understand that it is beneficial for the boys.

Same for me. I eat cottage cheese after workout, and I mix some glutamine powder into water or a sugar free drink. If I take in post-workout carb, it spills over into fat.

But most guys can and should have some carb with the post-workout protein.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours.

From: www.bodymusclejournal.com

No real need to create an insulin spike post-exercise.

J.

lowcarbj, I have been working on this delema for a while now.
I am a lot more fat than you. So for me.
I have been doing TKD for a couple of weeks and got the scale moving again. I was doing 25g of dextrose pre workout and no carbs post. I felt weak so I upped the carbs to 50g pre and feel better.
I have done post work out and pre workout. I stay in keto better if I do the dextrose pre workout, utilzing the glucose during the workout.
I had great gains on NHE. I felt great and had good lifts.
I have to do TKD to cut for my body chemistry.
Jag

I would argue that a quick insulin spike due to carbs would be anti-catabolic while the presence of amino acids would be anabolic. Providing carbs with protein would limit the amount of protein used by the liver for gluconeogenesis, meaning more amino acids can make it into the system to be used for the muscle repair.

And whether or not the insulin spike is necessary, carbs surely are necessary for optimal glycogen storage.

Sticky: Anyone? This is a sticky, berry berry sticky

Very interesting discussion.

MPS: I believe GH needs a lot of time to do it's magical work. There have been studies that GH like leptin can not give you quick results like insulin does. But it's a very interesting debate.

Elijager: Agreed.

Built: Good stuff. But keep in mind that the anabolic response (from the sugars-aminos) in men is not just from the testosterone.

LoCarbJ: Thank you for initianting this discussion. In fact, the only time for diabetics to be {"normal"} is during this 30-60 minutes post workout window

Currently, I am trying to skip post workout high GI/II foods. But in the past, no matter how much dextrose/maltodextrin + whey I had post workout, I never felt it hinder my fat loss, but of course this is anecdotal.

Up to 6 hours post workout, our body's insulin sensitivity is higher and so is our gluscose tolerance. Right after the workout, especially on lower carb diets, our glycogen stores would be very depleted and protein breakdown is at its highest! Bad news, our bodies will find it hard to recover with such a negative "muscle protein balance". Left untreated, our bodies will remain catabolic for hours (2-8), until protein synthesis kicks in and balance is achieved.


If glycogen stores are not replenished under these hard times, expect accelerated protein breakdown. Keep in mind that glycogen brings water in with it aiding in the recovery process even more preparing for protein resynthesis.

How to replenish glycogen stores that quickly? You got it...

Oh, and fats should not be in the post workout mix. First they slow down the absorbtion process, and second, why do you need fatty acids in your bloodstream while cells (including fat cells) are hungry for anything in their way? Amino acids with the sugars will be shuttled in the cells alos aiding the protein synthesis process.

Please, keep this discussion going.

Best,

Loony

Okay, here's a little more:

Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise.

Wojcik JR, Walber-Rankin J, Smith LL, Gwazdauskas FC.

Department of Human Nutrition, Foods, and Exercise at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg 24061, USA.

This study examined effects of carbohydrate (CHO), milk-based carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO), or placebo (P) beverages on glycogen resynthesis, muscle damage, inflammation, and muscle function following eccentric resistance exercise. Untrained males performed a cycling exercise to reduce muscle glycogen 12 hours prior to performance of 100 eccentric quadriceps contractions at 120% of 1-RM (day 1) and drank CHO (n = 8), CHO-PRO (n = 9; 5 kcal/kg), or P (n = 9) immediately and 2 hours post-exercise. At 3 hours post-eccentric exercise, serum insulin was four times higher for CHO-PRO and CHO than P (p < .05). Serum creatine kinase (CK) increased for all groups in the 6 hours post-eccentric exercise (p < .01), with the increase tending to be lowest for CHO-PRO (p < .08) during this period. Glycogen was low post-exercise (33+/-3.7 mmol/kg ww), increased 225% at 24 hours, and tripled by 72 hours, with no group differences. The eccentric exercise increased muscle protein breakdown as indicated by urinary 3-methylhistidine and increased IL-6 with no effect of beverage. Quadriceps isokinetic peak torque was depressed similarly for all groups by 24% 24 hours post-exercise and remained 21% lower at 72 hours (p < .01). In summary, there were no influences of any post-exercise beverage on muscle glycogen replacement, inflammation, or muscle function.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 11915776 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J.

Here's my take on the issue:

1. Will muscle glycogen be replenished whether or not I consume carbohydrates? Yes.

2. Has there been any study saying the faster muscle glycogen is replenished the better for muscle growth? Not really. They say muscle glycogen resynthesis isn't changed. If we were concerned with replenishing muscle and liver glycogen fast for energy requirements then its a whole different story. We're not concerned with that here. Strickly muscle repair.

2. Is there any benefit of creating a HUGE insulin spike? IMO, no because muscle gylocgen replenishment in its first phase is independent of insulin. After that it's followed by a slower insulin dependent phase. Sounds like low GI would be better for that without the risk of excess glucose being present.


So after lookin at those points deduced from the studies above it seems both methods work. One method just has a bigger risk of creating a nice little tire around my waist .

J.

One thing for us chicks to remember - the vast majority of most medical/sports bio-chem studies are done on MEN. Siad research may break down when applied to non-atheletes, women, those with insulin resistance, etc. I'm not at all saying the research is invalid. But I *AM* saying that depending on who or what you are in comparision to the study subjects MAY have a dramatic affect on whether or not you will respond similarly.

Cheers,

Friday

My own take is a little different.

1) NO - when I am am lifting hard and doing 3x 20 mins cardio, I will bonk my cardio once a week unless I do a carb up meal, and this is WITH 40 g of dextrose sandwiched around my lifting. If I am bonking, it means that the slow glucogenesis from fats/proteins cannot keep up with my expenditure. This holds true up to about an ECC of 70-ish. At 100 g ECC, I will not have a midweek bonk, but at 100g ECC, lifting on dextrose is kinda pointless, too. Also, with the exercise regimen I just specified, I will remain in ketosis even at 150-200 g ECC.

2) depends - faster may not equal more growth directly, but the cortisol spike needs to be countered within half an hour after you stop exercising, and slower carbs MAY keep you out of ketosis longer. So, while fast may not be more anabolic, it may be better for those who want fat-loss at the same time.

2b) Huge insulin spike probably isn't good, but how do you compare the spike from 20-40 g of fast dextose vs the spike from 100 g of slow, complex carbs?

Also - refilling liver glycogen is counter productive to ketosis. Those who bungle a CKD and take in too much fructose - which loves the liver - find that it may take 2-3 days to get back into ketosis as opposed to 24 hrs for those who avoid fructose. Liver glycogen, as far as I have read, is slow release, not fast. The whole point if using dextrose on a TKD is to *avoid* the liver because dextrose is preferentially absorbed into intramuscular stores.

Cheers,

Friday

Oh, that reminds me!

There was a great article that I read on the effects of pre-workout carbohydrate and glycogen depletion. I have been trying to find it, again. It stated that regular pre-workout carbo-loading tended to create a dependance on the carbo-loading. That those who carbo-loaded pre-workout tended to experience a bonk with a greater frequency, as their training progressed. By comparison, those athletes who trained without carbo-loading, were able to continually decrease the frequency of their bonking, as they trained.

As someone who does a LOT of endurance events, this is of big interest to me. I don't mind paying a higher price up-front (IE: having reduced performance initially), in turn for greater long-term performance.

I will try harder to find the exact article.

J.