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  #31   ^
Old Sat, May-19-18, 17:41
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayflowers
If you would have read Dr. Atkin's earlier books, you wouldn't be asking me that!


I see my previous reply was deleted. Let's try this again....

Give a quote. Any quote. Any. Show data. Any data. Any.

Or stop misleading people.
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  #32   ^
Old Sat, May-19-18, 17:43
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayflowers
And to back up my earlier statement Atkins, The New Diet Revolution pages 5 and 6 the 1981 version.

Give the quote. It doesn't say what you say.
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  #33   ^
Old Sat, May-19-18, 17:44
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
What's the name of the chapter or the section?
I wanted to reread but I
only have the 2002 version which on pg 5-6 is chapter "the promise", section "The Two Pictures"


That's because it's not really there.
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  #34   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 08:31
Mayflowers's Avatar
Mayflowers Mayflowers is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 538
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 205/165/150 Female 5'6"
BF:35
Progress: 73%
Location: Jersey Girl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
That's because it's not really there.


You missed my last post which had this information, if you would have read it.Atkins, The New Diet Revolution pages 5 and 6 the 1981 version
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  #35   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 08:33
Mayflowers's Avatar
Mayflowers Mayflowers is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 538
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 205/165/150 Female 5'6"
BF:35
Progress: 73%
Location: Jersey Girl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
What's the name of the chapter or the section?
I wanted to reread but I
only have the 2002 version which on pg 5-6 is chapter "the promise", section "The Two Pictures"

There is no 'chapter' Open the 1981 version of Atkins, the New Diet Revolution and count from page 1 to page 5. then read page 5 and 6. I can't make that any easier?
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  #36   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 08:35
Mayflowers's Avatar
Mayflowers Mayflowers is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 538
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 205/165/150 Female 5'6"
BF:35
Progress: 73%
Location: Jersey Girl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
That's because it's not really there.

REALLY? Go to Amazon.com open the book in the reader and you'll see pages 5 and 6. Ok I'm done here. You are very rude and I'm not talking to you anymore.
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  #37   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 10:26
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayflowers
REALLY? Go to Amazon.com open the book in the reader and you'll see pages 5 and 6. Ok I'm done here. You are very rude and I'm not talking to you anymore.

Much like Dr.. Atkins I'm trying to be nice but it's clear...

the reason you're "done" is because you can't back up what you said. I'm not going to make your case for you. That's you're job. You tried snark. It didn't work. You tried to assert authority. It didn't work. Now running away is your option.

Except you left behind a mess. A mess you refuse to clean up. There is no optimal level of ketosis. If there were there would be data to say so. There isn't. In fact Dr.. Atkins said the opposite. He said to get into ketosis then climb the carb ladder then back down a step. He wasn't "trying to be kind." He was trying to be honest and do the best for people. You should try that.
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  #38   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 10:29
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayflowers
You missed my last post which had this information, if you would have read it.Atkins, The New Diet Revolution pages 5 and 6 the 1981 version


If you do it at least you can try moving the goal posts. If I do it, I'll make the present evisceration look like a Sunday picnic. It's in your own best interests to give a quote. Any quote. Any.
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  #39   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 11:31
ScotiaGirl's Avatar
ScotiaGirl ScotiaGirl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 12,067
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 188.4/164.8/148.0 Female 5'4.5"
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: N.S.
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I did a little search and I found this info.

https://ketosummit.com/optimal-keto...l-ketone-levels

"As you might have suspected, there isn’t a one-size fits all answer to this question. Part of the answer depends on what your goals are.

The optimal ketone levels you’ll want to achieve will likely be different depending on whether you’re looking to lose weight, get improved mental clarity, improve your athletics performance, or to cure/prevent illnesses like cancer. And the numbers may also vary depending on your body’s current insulin resistance (e.g., if you have type 2 diabetes or if you’re pre-diabetic then your optimal levels at the beginning may also differ from someone who has healthy levels of blood glucose).



Bearing all of those different factors in mind, below are some ranges proposed by different ketogenic diet experts and below that you’ll see a table of our suggestions based on those expert’s opinions.

NOTE – again, these ketone levels are for optimal nutritional ketosis and should not be used if you’re a type 1 diabetic!"
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  #40   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 19:34
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney
jeff-and-steve

Most people have based their optimal ketone numbers on the recommendations in The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance: “‘light nutritional ketosis’ is between 0.5mmol/L and 1.0mmol/L and ‘optimal ketosis’ is between 1.0mmol/L and 3.0mmol/L.”

P&V do not have data to back this up. Their definition has moved throughout the years. Sometimes it's "0.5", other times it has been "0.8", now it's apparently "1.0 to 3.0". That's a pretty big range and they only seem to exclude ketoacidosis. Good for them for that. What happened to 0.5? They never say.

The data they do have is based on four cyclists who cycled 200 miles a week and one injured one who did 100 miles.. These cyclists had very high ketones. These cyclists did not lose weight. They were not trying to lose weight.

P&V make the statement "optimal ketosis" but they do not define optimal. Optimal for what? A low RQ? Weight loss? They never say.

For those interested, here is a link to their paper, https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozbkbj6j3...sponse.pdf?dl=0

Table 2 has the data for the cyclists. They show the cyclists have a lower RQ after going to the EKD diet. That's axiomatic though. The EKD has a higher energy density (fat) and hence the ratio of H2O to CO2 changes when people eat fat instead of carbs. It has to or we need to rewrite particle physics.

Unfortunately Jimmy Moore has taken these ad hoc statements from P&V and misrepresented them. So badly in fact that Dr. Westman is now very clear that there is no "optimal" level of ketosis, just like Atkins said. Moreover given the subsequent success of lowish carb diets and cyclic keto diets, one has to wonder if ketosis is necessary for most people to have success by simply lowering carbs..
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  #41   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 19:46
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
Dr. Thomas Seyfried
tom-seyfried

Dr. Thomas Seyfried, a professor of biology at Boston College who researches cancer and the uses of a ketogenic diet in curing and preventing cancer, states in the The Complete Guide to Fasting book: “The key to therapy is prolonged therapeutic ketosis (blood ketones in the range of 3–6mM), together with reduced blood glucose levels (3–4 mM).”


This is simply wrong and has personal meaning for me. I have had several Actinic Keratosis removed this past year. Somewhere around a dozen or more. I've also had a basal cell carcinoma (BCC) removed from my nose. How did this happen? Well growing up a white kid in the tropics didn't help. Spending much of my free time in adult life fishing didn't help. AND going to a fat based diet didn't help at all either. From "Diet and basal cell carcinoma of the skin in a prospective cohort of men", https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10617958 this is a known thing. The guy has data. He's been cited 114 times. Because of his data. His data shows that the relationship is with monounsaturated fat. Animal fat. Did it hurt me? Maybe. Did it help? Not when it comes to BCC.

So when this guy says "the key to therapy...." At best he's talking about a very specific therapy and NOT a general rule.
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  #42   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 19:49
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
Default

Quote:
Dominic D’Agostino is an assistant professor in University of South Florida and his lab researches how a ketogenic diet can aid neurological diseases. In a 2014 podcast with Chris Kelly from Nourish Balance Thrive, Dominic stated: “What’s the optimal level of ketones? I think anecdotally and from the data that I’ve seen, I think somewhere between 1.5 and 3 is optimal.”


Whenever I have questions in this area I ask teaser. I have no doubt nutritional ketosis helps people with neurological difficulties. What I do like about Dr D’Agostino's statement is he is clear is thinking is based on anecdotal data and not a scientifically repeatable test.
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  #43   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 19:50
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
Default

Quote:
Luis from Ketogains.com who helps many bodybuilders on a ketogenic diet has repeatedly suggested that search for high ketone levels is not always beneficial. He regularly tells people: “don’t chase ketones; chase results.”


Well. There is it.
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  #44   ^
Old Sun, May-20-18, 19:52
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,011
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
Default

Quote:
Marty, an engineer who runs the website and Facebook group, Optimising Nutrition, states that: “If your aim is exercise performance or fat loss then ketones between 0.5mmol/L and 1.3mmol/L might be all you need to aim for. I also think loading up on dietary fat at the expense of getting adequate protein, vitamins and minerals may be counterproductive in the long term.”

Marty also points out that not everyone on a ketogenic diet will get high ketone levels – for example, Sami Inkenen only had around 0.6mmol/L when he was rowing from the US to Hawaii on an 80% fat diet.

Well let's take it from an engineer who runs a website and Facebook group.... 0.5 to 1.3 might be right..... or not as one guy had 0.6. Whatever.


The author of the link makes this statement right before puting up that chart,

Quote:
There’s no such thing as an optimal recommendation for everyone because we just don’t know how to measure or understand all those processes as much as we’d like to think we do!”

So there is it. We just don't understand. The reason we don't understand is that ketones are only related to our fat to carb ratio by implication. The Absolute worst thing that P&V did was try to show a relationship between ketones and some sort of optimal. There is a real honest to goodness relationship between the % fat burned and respiratory quotient. There has to be as the hydrogen to carbon ratio of the fuel changes hence the H2O to CO2 exhaled (the RQ) changes.

There is NO scientific data on relationship between the level of blood ketones and weight loss. None.

The leading researchers for LCHF weight loss, Dr. Westman and Dr. Atkins, tell us not to worry about it.

Last edited by inflammabl : Sun, May-20-18 at 19:59.
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