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  #16   ^
Old Tue, Jan-27-04, 11:48
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Posts: 37,199
 
Plan: LC paleo/ancestral
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursula
What oils are polyunsaturated? I use olive oil and I know that's monounsaturated, and also peanut oil--I don't know what that is.

hi Ursula,

Dr. Mary Enig has written some excellent articles about fats and health ... these are published at the Weston A. Price Foundation website.

This particular article .. The Skinny on Fats will explain to you about fats .. what saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats are, and how they impact our health. (the specific info about types of fats is 1/3 the way down the page .. it's a long article).

hth,


Doreen
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Mar-18-04, 14:49
B.B.B.'s Avatar
B.B.B. B.B.B. is offline
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Posts: 25
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 150/132/110 Female 5'5
BF:37%
Progress: 45%
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Angry

The media always tries to dispell everything positive! Dr. Atkins was in adamn coma...unable to eat on his own, exercise or anything....of course the guy gained weight!!!!!!!!!!! The issue lies in the Food Pyramid....it is funded by FARMERS! They are freaking out because they are losing sales...bread, potatoes, rice....etc...

We know Atkins works...the media can bitch, wine and complain all they want....we need to keep positive and stay focused. Dr. Atkins wa sa wonderful man...he has helped alot of us on our weight loss journey...the fact that in his death they scrutinized him is SICKENING!
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Mar-25-04, 11:26
M. Howard M. Howard is offline
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Posts: 5
 
Plan: don't
Stats: 138/140/140 Male 5'7"
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Default Please read this link

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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Mar-25-04, 11:52
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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Posts: 3,423
 
Plan: Atkins (loosely)
Stats: -/-/- Female 60
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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Hello Howard

This article is from the PCRM. They are a group of vegan radicals who are trying to pass themselves off as "concerned physicians". They are only concerned about promoting their vegan agenda, not about people's health.

Read a little more about themhere. If you do a search of PRCM on the internet you'll learn plenty. They have zero credibility.
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  #20   ^
Old Fri, Mar-26-04, 06:16
CindySue48's Avatar
CindySue48 CindySue48 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,816
 
Plan: Atkins/Protein Power
Stats: 256/179/160 Female 68 inches
BF:38.9/27.2/24.3
Progress: 80%
Location: Triangle NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Howard


Howard: From the article:
Table 1. Common Problems Reported by Atkins Diet Alert Registrants

44% reported constipation
42% reported loss of energy
40% reported bad breath
31% reported difficulty concentrating
22% reported kidney problems: kidney stones (11%), severe kidney infections (2%), or reduced kidney function (9%)
20% reported heart-related problems, including heart attack (1%), other heart problems (12%), or high cholesterol (7%)
11% reported gallbladder problems or removal
5% reported gout
5% reported diabetes
5% reported osteoporosis
4% reported colorectal (1%) or other cancers (3%)


Table 2. Other Problems Reported by Three or More Individuals:

11 reported irritable bowel syndrome, severe abdominal pain, or cramps (6%)
9 reported pain, cramps, tingling, or numbness in the limbs (5%)
9 reported feeling shaky and weak (5%)
9 reported vertigo, dizziness, or lightheadedness (5%)
7 reported severe diarrhea (4%)
7 reported severe or repeated headaches (4%)
5 reported severe mood swings, apathy, or depression (3%)
5 reported general malaise (3%)
4 reported nausea (2%)
4 reported severe menstrual problems (2%)
3 reported heart palpitations (2%)

Now....first thing to remember is that these results are from people who have registered on their site, not based on a global survey of LC dieters. The people who register on this site are most likely people who have had problems and went off LC.

The "side effects" above are often touted as being "life threatening complications"....well, let's see.

44% reported constipation (not enough fiber, of course you're going to be constipated.
42% reported loss of energy (wonder if they made it past induction)
40% reported bad breath (ketosis is not that bad....I've asked my kids and friends. My mouthmay taste nasty, but my breath isn't bad as bad as normal "morning breath")
31% reported difficulty concentrating (again, get past induction)
11% reported gallbladder problems or removal (most likely due to YEARS of LF)
5% reported gout ( a problem with a very small percentage of the population, regardless of diet)
5% reported diabetes (this one makes me wonder. There is no way DM can be triggered by LC....it just isn't possible)
5% reported osteoporosis (two words: calcium supplements. MOST people need them, not just LCers)
None of these are considered in any way life threatening.

More serious?
22% reported kidney problems: kidney stones (11%), severe kidney infections (2%), or reduced kidney function (9%)
kidney stones are directly related to calcium intake in people who are susceptable, a small percentage of the population. Kidney function can be compromised further in unhealthy kidneys, but studies have shown NO risk to healthy kidneys!!!!! An infection is caused by a bacteria. With few exceptions, that infection comes from the external perineal area, introduced into the bladder. If any bladder infection is left untreated, it can and often will lead to actualy kidney infection. That's because the bacteria migrates up the urinary tract to the kidneys. Also most "kidney infections" are actually bladder infections, there's a BIg difference.

20% reported heart-related problems, including heart attack (1%), other heart problems (12%), or high cholesterol (7%)
If only 1% end up having heart attacks, that's way lower than LF followers. BUT...unless these people had been following LC for many years, it's more likely the previoous diet was the caseu,, not LC.
"Other heart problems".....hmmmm without knowing what they are, it's hard to comment. BUT, low potassium, calcium, etc can cause heart irregularities....which if severe and untreated can lead to serious or even fatal heart rhythm irregularities. This is why most LC plans advocate a daily MVI and often added potassium and calcium.
As for high cholesterol, many are no longer convinced that is a "problem".

Look around ont eh web-site and do some searches. You'll find more information on cholesterol, saturated fat, "good" vs "bad" fats. As for cholesterol, that recomendation was based on bad research....and has now taken on a life of it's own.

Consider this: The body stores what it needs where it can get it, right? Like fat....you store that on your body, around your torso or even legs and arms, but rarely to any degree around your head. Why? because if your body needs extra fuel, the fat is right there where it can be broken down and used.

Now, consider this:
3.5 ounces extra lean ground beef, 82 milligrams
3.5 ounce lean pork chop, 94 milligrams
3.5 ounces of chicken breast meat, no skin, 73 milligrams
3.5 ounces turkey, light meat only, 69 milligrams
3 ounces perch, 36 milligrams
6 medium oysters, 46 milligrams
12 large shrimp, 130 milligrams
1 large egg, 213 milligrams
3.5 ounces of liver, 400 milligrams
3.5 ounces of brains, 2,000 milligrams

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/fcs/heart/hhb7-1.html

Now....why would an animal's body store cholesterol in the brian if it wasn't needed there? Cholesterol is used by the body to create and repair blood vessels. It is required for blood vessel health. Maybe the body stores it here in case it's needed?

Anything PCRM says is highly suspect. They are vegetarian proponents, closely alligned with PETA. They take the data they want from studies, not the whole study. They are anti LC, anti meat fanatics. The AMA has also censured PCRN several times for their tactics. (do a sarch on the forum for PCRM, that will keep you busy for a while!)

If you want real information, go to a site like webmd and check out the references for your self. Or just do a search on cholesterol and then read the studies quoted. You'll find that either the study doens't actually say what the reports say they do.....or the study is obviously flawed.

As Dr Ravnskov says in his book "The Cholesterol Myths": "For a scientific hypothesis is sound, it must agree with all observations. A hypothesis is not like a sports event, where the team with the greatest number of points wins the game. Even one observation that does not support a hypothesis is enough to disprove it" (page 12 in the introduction)

The medical community freely admits there are people with CAD that do not have high cholesterol. They also admit that only 6% of your total cholesterol is due to your diet, and that your body will create cholesterol if it's not taken in in large enough quantities!

No one is required to eat meats on either Atkins or any other LC diet. You are also not required to eat saturated fats in any form if you don't want. LC is more about limiting all carbs and eliminating the "bad"carbs, like refined sugar, flour, etc. We have members on here that are vegetarians.
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, Apr-02-04, 21:02
Monika4 Monika4 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 988
 
Plan: South beach (modified)
Stats: 185/153/150 Female 5' 6.5''
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gfehr3
What I have been searching for is the base research findings that support what is currently recommended by US and Canadian nutritionists and the medical communitiy at large. What I have noted is that the Framingham study has been touted as the basis for these recommendations however other very well respected researchers (Mary Enig, University of Maryland for example) reviewed the raw data and have come to different conclusions. Unfortunately much of the raw data research results are hidden from the average person behind pay based electronic publishers.

With the Framingham study It appears to be a case of picking the data that supports the hypothesis and ignoring what doesn't fit or perhaps interpreting the results in a non scientific way. This is generally considered to be an abuse of statistics however only if you get caught.

Still seaching for the underpinnings of our current dietary recommendations. Any help would be appreciated.


Those who are saying it isn't clear are right. But it isn't all bias either. Some studies like Framingham and studies in many countries found a correlation between high fat and arteriosclerosis, and when one country (Crete) didn't fit the picture, it was ignored. Later, the mediterranian diet became known as high fat and healthy, and scientists realized ignoring it was throwing out the baby with the bath water.

The other point to remember that studies can't typically provide the whole picture at once. So you will find some sets of studies that state that certain lipids in the blood increase risk for arteriosclerosis, and other studies that correlate diet with these lipids, but few that get all factors at once - and those that do would still be correlational.

Here are some studies that support diet- arteriosclerosis links - first one high fiber, second low glycemic index (incidentally, both are factors that Atkins and the medical establishment seem to agree on):


1. Bazzano LA, He J, Ogden LG, Loria CM, Whelton PK; National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey I Epidemiologic Follow-up Study.
Dietary fiber intake and reduced risk of coronary heart disease in US men and women: the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey I Epidemiologic Follow-up Study.
Arch Intern Med. 2003 Sep 8;163(16):1897-904.

2: Liu S, Willett WC. Related Articles, Links
Dietary glycemic load and atherothrombotic risk.
Curr Atheroscler Rep. 2002 Nov;4(6):454-61.

The following study shows that the more animal protein is eaten the higher the arteriosclerotic risk factors (I know that is non-PC here, but these are the types of studies that made physicians think cause and effect - it is a correlation, not a causation - this study does not show that the higher animal protein diet is the cause!):

J Atheroscler Thromb. 2002;9(6):299-304.
Influence of the extent of westernization of lifestyle on the progression of preclinical atherosclerosis in Japanese subjects.

Egusa G, Watanabe H, Ohshita K, Fujikawa R, Yamane K, Okubo M, Kohno N.

To clarify the influence of a westernized lifestyle on the risk factors for atherosclerosis and preclinical atherosclerosis in Japanese subjects, we surveyed a Japanese population and Japanese immigrants in the United States. Based on the extent of westernization of their lifestyle, the subjects were classified as Japanese (J), first generation Japanese-Americans (JA-I), and second or later generation Japanese-Americans (JA-II). The consumption of animal fat and simple carbohydrates increased in the order of J, JA-I, and JA-II, while the subjects with strenuous physical activity decreased in the same order. The waist-hip ratio, fasting insulin level, serum cholesterol and triglyceride levels, and prevalence of hypertension increased in the same order as the dietary changes. The carotid intima-media wall thickness and the plaque size, which are indices of preclinical atherosclerosis, also increased in the order of J, JA-I, and JA-II. These data indicate that a westernized lifestyle aggravates the risk factors for atherosclerosis and influences the progression of preclinical atherosclerosis, in correspondence with the extent of westernization

P N G Med J. 2001 Sep-Dec;44(3-4):135-50.
Superiority of traditional village diet and lifestyle in minimizing cardiovascular disease risk in Papua New Guineans. excerpts:
..."The rural diets were mainly of vegetarian type, limited in variety and low in fat and protein content. In the urban subjects, the typical meal comprised refined foods with high fat and protein content. The urban men and women had significantly (p < 0.05) greater body weight, body mass index (BMI), and waist and hip circumferences than their rural counterparts."....

This one (from an egg organization) claims cholesterol in diet isn't that bad:
Biochim Biophys Acta. 2000 Dec 15;1529(1-3):310-20.
Dietary cholesterol and atherosclerosis.
McNamara DJ.

Proc Nutr Soc. 2003 Feb;62(1):135-42.
Whole grains protect against atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease
"Atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD) is the most common cause of death in most Western countries. Nutrition factors contribute importantly to this high risk for ASCVD. Favourable alterations in diet can reduce six of the nine major risk factors for ASCVD, i.e. high serum LDL-cholesterol levels, high fasting serum triacylglycerol levels, low HDL-cholesterol levels, hypertension, diabetes and obesity. Wholegrain foods may be one the healthiest choices individuals can make to lower the risk for ASCVD. Epidemiological studies indicate that individuals with higher levels (in the highest quintile) of whole-grain intake have a 29 % lower risk for ASCVD than individuals with lower levels (lowest quintile) of whole-grain intake. ...."
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, May-30-04, 17:15
VickiR VickiR is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 274
 
Plan: South Beach
Stats: 162/153/145 Female 5 feet, 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
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Pubmed is now public and an excellent free resource - although most of the references are not available on-line, only abstracts. Still, I use it to sift through the available information, and if there is something really interesting, go to the local Health Sciences Library at the University here in town. I only have to buy a copy card, and I can copy the most interesting references.
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  #23   ^
Old Sun, May-30-04, 17:18
VickiR VickiR is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 274
 
Plan: South Beach
Stats: 162/153/145 Female 5 feet, 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 53%
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Also, this is another interesting, free, resource:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/

Information about food, including nutritional breakdowns, can be had here.
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  #24   ^
Old Tue, Jun-29-04, 06:22
eddiemcm's Avatar
eddiemcm eddiemcm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,191
 
Plan: south beach
Stats: 225/170/165 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 92%
Location: Houston,Texas
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Hello,Voyager
You did not address all studies listed on this forum.
How about Framingham and MRFIT?
I agree with most of what you say except for your
statement about the average cholesterol level in Japan.
It's 180 in Japan-225 in USA.
Your statement about the medical types pointing to high
cholesterol as the single source of heart problems is,for
the most part,absurd.All a person can say, after looking at
Framingham/MRFIT curves and data ,is that there appears to
be a link between high cholesterol and heart failure for people
under 50 years of age.No person,except an idiot,would point
at these studies and conclude that the single cause of heart failure is high cholesterol.It just shows that high cholesterol is probably a major contributing factor.The best summary of all
medical studies is found in the overly large expensive Chemical Abstract.
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Mar-23-06, 19:30
nedgoudy nedgoudy is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 517
 
Plan: Whey Protein & Skim Milk
Stats: 240/150/160 Male 66 inches
BF:No Thanks!
Progress: 113%
Location: Los Angeles County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyajer
A Review of Diet, Fat, and Cholesterol Research: 25 Points.


Woa! Way too much information to
interest me or anyone new to Low Carb.

You are probably preach'n to the choir.

But none the less, you get an A+ for
your tremendous effort and great work.

But if I wanted that much information,
I would have gone back to college
and gotten a 4th degree.
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Nov-10-06, 21:53
Analog6's Avatar
Analog6 Analog6 is offline
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Posts: 186
 
Plan: Atkins but tweaking
Stats: 289/232/132 Female 170cm
BF:Unknown/45%/??
Progress: 36%
Location: Terranora, NSW, Australia
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Thanks for this Voyager, it was fantastic. You did a great job and I read it carefully and really found it useful.
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Apr-02-07, 05:42
dpm64 dpm64 is offline
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Posts: 3
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 192/192/172 Male 5' 11"
BF:
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Default Which Diet Works : A Nutrition Revew

Found this easy to understand video from Univ of Wisconsin Medical School. Gail Underbakke, MS, RD presented on March 29, 2007. (54 min)

http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=195

She covers it all. Has section on Omega 3 & 6.

The 1st part of video is about heart disease prevention, but then she goes into weight control as well. Very balanced approach.
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  #28   ^
Old Sat, Aug-18-07, 22:11
davidcoast davidcoast is offline
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Posts: 36
 
Plan: Peskin
Stats: 195/167/165 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress:
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[QUOTE=Voyajer]Thanks Deb,

I realize I forgot two points:

26. There is one fat that should be avoided: trans fat (partially hydrogenated oil). Replacement of just 2% of energy from trans unsaturated fats with unsaturated fats would result in a 53% risk reduction for coronary heart disease.
54 Felton CV et al: Dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids and composition of human aortic plaques. Lancet 1994; 344:1195-1196.
55 Nippon Rinsho, Modified low-density lipoprotein. 1994 Dec; 52(12):3090-5.
56 Bourre JM, Piciotti M. Alterations in eighteen-carbon saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acid peroxisomal oxidation in mouse brain during development and aging.

Impressive work Voyajer! However, you may have missed the key point in why LDL cholesterol has been indicted as the 'criminal' in CVD.

There are a series of dots between item 26 and items 54, 55 and 56. As the article in the Lancet pointed out, it is PUFAs (mainly trans fats and oxidized omega 6 which is the bad guy relative of the essential fatty version which is biologically active parent omega 6), not saturated fat that is clogging arteries. In fact the study found no saturated fat in clogs.

Insofar as LDL being the bad guy, it is merely an innocent bystander. LDL normally carries biologically active parent omega 6 because it is the transporter for it. But the majority of the omega 6 we get in our good old North American diet that has not been hydrogenated is oxidized and thus not only biologically inactive (read: doesn't function in the capacity of an EFA) but is also toxic. This is what LDL is transporting. Researchers concluded that LDL is the bad guy when in reality it is the bad omega 6 that the LDL is carrying. Lowering LDL will help to a degree. But LDL can never be lowered enough to eliminate all the oxidized omega 6 PUFA that is doing damage. Eliminating trans fats only deals with part of the problem. If there's not enough biologically active parent omega 6 to supply your body's needs (they don't call it 'essential' for nothing) it will use whatever it can get because it has no other choice.

It really stretches my imagination to the limit for me to believe that replacing trans fats with the same oxidized PUFAs that are clogging arteries will result in a 53% reduction for coronary heart disease.

I have just obtained a copy of a new article that revisits the LDL issue in the above perspective. Since it is not yet widely available I can provide a copy to anyone who provides me with their email address or I can post some excerpts in this forum along with science references of course.

Last edited by davidcoast : Sat, Aug-18-07 at 22:19.
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  #29   ^
Old Mon, Aug-20-07, 07:20
jschwab jschwab is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 76%
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"

2) I don't have a good reference on this but I know more recent work has gone against the traditional concept of man as efficient meat hunter and relegated it to more of a vulture status - namely gathering meat that was left. And in most cases the remaining meat was brain or marrow - we were able to better extract brain meat from a skull/bones than other animals. In most cases brain meat is incredibly dense with protein and fats. Does that mean our best diet would be brain? Muscle meat has very different composition and therefore your're making a stretch. A second point is that there is only one study to my knowledge (Crawford, Michael) showing the absolute need for meat as a precursor to larger brain development. "

I am not understanding your post. Brain is still a highly valued part of the animal in many cuisines. Just because you don't eat it, doesn't mean other people don't. My husband just found out about a zoo that was feeding tigers muscle meat and they could not reproduce, so they observed them in the wild, taking the organ meats and leaving the rest. If man could scavenge bones and muscle meat from these carcasses, they would have. We need to eat more of the whole animal, but that does not mean muscle meat is not part of the diet.

Janine
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  #30   ^
Old Sun, Oct-07-07, 21:51
lorimay7 lorimay7 is offline
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Posts: 5
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 189/162/135 Female 61.5
BF:
Progress:
Default Question about Polyinsaturated fats

I have a question about the following that was written......

"27. Although the government's Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommends that Americans cut their daily saturated fat intake to 10% and certain researchers recommend replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat, there appear to be valid reasons to fear replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats.(53) When the arterial plaque of deceased humans was examined it contained polyunsaturated fats.(54) Oxidation of fats whether it occurs in the body or whether oxidized fat is ingested is known to lead to clogging of the arteries. The fat that oxidizes the easiest is polyunsaturated fat.(55) Saturated fats are the most stable.(56)

I went to look up polyunsaturated fats to know what contained it and found the following on wikipedia....

"Polyunsaturated fat, along with monounsaturated fat are "healthy fats," the amount of which in one's daily diet should be near 25 g (in a 2000 calorie-per-day diet).[citation needed] Polyunsaturated fat can be found mostly in grain products, fish and sea food (herring, salmon, mackerel, halibut), soybeans, and fish oil. "

So, is it not wise to take fish oil capsules? I was told it would reduce my bad cholesterol (it's 189) and thought it was good for other things as well. I don't eat fish so don't get it from foods. My triglycerides are only 89 and my good cholesterol is 45...buti thought it would be good to get the bad a bit lower or at least know if my bad cholesterol is made up of the bad or good fat. I'm a bit confused.
What polyunsaturated fats should I avoid?? I tried to go to a couple links in this thread that was suppose to explain them but they didn't work.

Thanks,
Lori
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