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  #976   ^
Old Wed, Aug-15-18, 07:13
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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  #977   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 11:07
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Believe I posted something recently about Dr. Fung's concerns about OMAD. This in the latest newsletter explains:

Quote:
One of our brilliant IDM team members, Pete Kaye tackled a BIG topic that comes up in our free Facebook community quite often.

OMAD.

These 4 little letters are often the subject of hot debate in fasting communities, and Pete offered our group quite possibly the best explanation of OMAD we’ve ever heard, including when it’s best used, what it really is, and where it falls in the fasting lineup.

We’ll let Pete explain:

Let’s talk OMAD (a.k.a. One Meal a Day).

A day does not go by at IDM where we’re not asked about OMAD. It’s a very popular subject and for many people who work 9-5 M-F, it meshes nicely into their lifestyles as they can eat their one meal with their families after work.

But many are also shocked to learn it is not a form of fasting as we define it. It’s actually a form of eating; eating one meal a day.

The problem with OMAD is in its repetition. Eating one meal a day is a pattern easily recognized by the body and by doing the same behavior every day, the body does what it does naturally; it adapts. And it’s this adaptation that causes the rub; the body simply slows its Base Metabolic Rate (BMR).

At first when you start OMAD, the BMR stays very high. But after a while BMR inevitably slows down because it does take the body some time to adapt, but it does. First with energy levels, then with other metabolic operations and at some point, as we see quite consistently, BMR just slows down, and the inevitable plateau follows.

If you are trying to lose weight, this is not a good situation. In fact, what we need is just the opposite; a way to speed up BMR. SO how can we do this? There are a few ways…

Alternate Day Fasting, mixing up fasting patterns during the week, and finally longer fasts. OMAD, coupled with a day or two of skipping meals altogether will do it too.

Confounding this argument, there are some instances where OMAD will work. First, there is the person who only has 20-30 pounds to lose. In this case, OMAD works well. Next, there is the class of people who have NO history of yo-yo dieting. The third group are those who are at goal weight, and OMAD is just a good way to do weight maintenance.



Also though there is a recipe for a KetoAid on the Dudes, and now Dr. Ken Berry has a video electrolyte recipe too, Dr. Fung's group no longer advises any Potassium. Some FB comments:

Quote:
IDM does not support the use of potassium unless supervised by your doctor.
Potassium is not needed by most. We can get plenty from our food.

Potassium can be lethal if too much is taken. The only sure way to know if you are low is by lab work.

Because there’s a danger if it’s overused: It can be fatal... Cardiac arrest.

I cringe when I see what seems to be cavalier use of potassium. Too much or too little can kill. It should never be supplemented without a doctor’s advice.
Especially if you have heart issues

Can add Potassium from:

Spinach
Avocados
Mushrooms
Meat
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  #978   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 12:02
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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You can see how a kidney specialist could be especially cautious about potassium.

I always see people on facebook keto groups asking how they're to get their "requirement" for potassium of 4700 mg a day. The answer is, there's no reason to try for quite that much on a daily basis.

Here's an example of the sort of thinking that goes into the potassium "requirement."

Quote:
Another dietary measure to lower blood pressure is to consume a diet rich in potassium. A potassium-rich diet also blunts the effects of salt on blood pressure, may reduce the risk of developing kidney stones, and possibly decrease bone loss with age. The recommended intake of potassium for adolescents and adults is 4,700 mg/day. Recommended intakes for potassium for children 1 to 3 years of age is 3,000 mg/day, 4 to 8 years of age is 3,800 mg/day, and 9 to 13 years of age is 4,500 mg/day. Potassium should come from food sources. Fruits and vegetables, which are rich in potassium with its bicarbonate precursors, favorably affect acid-base metabolism, which may reduce risk of kidney stones and bone loss. Potassium-rich fruits and vegetables include leafy green vegetables, fruit from vines, and root vegetables. Meat, milk, and cereal products also contain potassium, but may not have the same effect on acid-base metabolism.



https://health.gov/dietaryguideline...ml/chapter8.htm

The potassium "requirement" is based on trying to get people to eat more fruits and vegetables, and nothing else. It's based on studies on the Dash diet and what not where extremely weak effects in lowering blood pressure have been shown. The idea that potassium from veggies is pro-bone and from meat, is not--it's been shown that meat can increase calcium absorption. Scientists don't like working with poop, relying only on urine balances can yield a whole lot of nonsense, and it can take decades for the nonsense to go away. Hint--if something says "may reduce risk of kidney stones and bone loss," and that "may" has been there for half a century or more...

I get some occasional muscle cramps if I don't use some half-salt to bring up my potassium intake. The effective amount is well under a teaspoon. A teaspoon would increase my potassium intake by 340 mg.

Fun graph to go with any epidemiology-based sodium vs. potassium strategies you might be tempted to give a shot;



77 percent of sodium from processed foods? I wonder what percentage of that is from "sodium-reduced" processed foods?

Don't be a-scared of the salt shaker. That just makes it harder for your home-cooked meal to compete with what the food labs are cranking out.
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  #979   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 12:19
ImOnMyWay's Avatar
ImOnMyWay ImOnMyWay is offline
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Posts: 3,831
 
Plan: OWL
Stats: 177/168/135 Female 5'1"
BF:50.5/38/25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100


link takes me to error 404 not found...
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  #980   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 13:43
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
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Teaser, love the "crap" you find!

Seriously, this is a GREAT find. Perhaps more can be dug up, like how the RDA developed their requirement, and is it still valid today.

Healthy kidneys can handle a lot. The key is "Healthy" They are remarkable organs.....all the more reason to remove the "processed" crap from our diets.
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  #981   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 13:44
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s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
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Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImOnMyWay
link takes me to error 404 not found...
The Beginner’s Guide to Intermittent Fasting

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  #982   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 15:57
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ImOnMyWay ImOnMyWay is offline
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Plan: OWL
Stats: 177/168/135 Female 5'1"
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Progress: 21%
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TYVM, s93uv3h. I am pleased to see that this article lists many references to its claims. I am checking these out, slowly...
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  #983   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 18:53
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s93uv3h


Good summary of what I had pieced together.

*****

Recall many decades ago limited access to food to designated meal times when I ate "dinner" at 4:00 and next meal was at 6:00am. I can still remember the extreme hunger, and drinking cold water at the bubbler to calm the endless hunger. Looking back I remember that time as torture, yet lost about 20 pounds. The extremely high number of carbs is likely the difference: lots of chocolate milk, endless desserts, plate piled high with high carb foods. What we eat does seem to matter. Given that 23/1 has been doable with no hunger.
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  #984   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 20:39
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Starting last May, something in my body changed which made me start gaining, albeit, gradually. Of course I began my n=1.

Since then, I've tried just about every permutation of ketogenic eating and IF, subtracted food groups, even cut back on my HRT. Nothing is working for me.

So I went to IDM and joined. Currently in my one free month. Today I started listening to Megan's Q&A. Her delivery is very off-putting. I just can't watch the videos without grinding my teeth. Even the transcripts are full of phrases that make me flinch.

I will take advantage of what I can, but I seriously doubt I'll remain part of their club.
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  #985   ^
Old Mon, Aug-27-18, 21:01
ImOnMyWay's Avatar
ImOnMyWay ImOnMyWay is offline
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Posts: 3,831
 
Plan: OWL
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I have an account at a fitness forum. It's rare, but occasionally I will jump into the fray. Someone recently started a thread that asked if anyone there did Intermittent Fasting, because she was thinking about doing it herself. Several regulars (who seem to do nothing but hang out at the forums to disparage anything but CICO and "get your ass to the gym" - and, presumably, go to the gym themselves) immediately jumped in and disparaged the idea, stating that there was "nothing magical" about IF.

OP then says, "OK, thanks, I guess I'll just continue with what I'm doing," all things in moderation, and the like.

I was torn. I wanted to contribute to the conversation, but knew I would be mercilessly "woo'd". Furthermore, I was tempted to not waste my time answering someone lazy enough to take this health advice as gospel, without doing any further investigation on her own. Maybe she was trolling?

Nevertheless, without insulting anybody, I told her of my own limited experiences with IF, told her how I felt doing it, that it seemed a natural adjunct to being "fat adapted," from my perspective, and posted links to an interview with Dr. Fung, whom I described as a leading expert in the field, as well as his lecture at Low Carb Downunder. I posited that the OP should do a little research on the subject, and make her own decision as to whether or not to try it.

Well, that got a lot of derision. These folks really seem to hate Dr. Fung, think he's akin to Dr. Oz, doesn't know what he's talking about, experts in the field think he's full of $^*!, and such.

Hmmm. You know, it's not my job to defend Dr. Fung's qualifications. I'm not even qualified to do so. I haven't even read his books. I just can't figure out why these people hate him so much. Is it because he's charging money for weight loss counselling? Because he's a published author? Challenges their belief system that CICO is IT? They don't like ketogenic diets, either. They sneer at mention of Andreas Eenfeldt.

Seems to me, based on what I know of Dr. Fung, he IS an expert. He's got his doctorate, has a specialty in nephrology, did his residency at UCLA, set up practice in Toronto, and furthered his education. He noticed that many of his patients also had Type 2 diabetes or were obese. In response to his recognition of a growing problem, he began treating them with a protocol to try and improve their health, with promising results. Some of these case studies show remarkable success in reducing or eliminating required medications, effectively reversing their Type 2 Diabetes, and helping them lose weight. The case studies contribute to the body of scientific knowledge in the field of autophagy.

So, what's the problem?

Bluesinger, I hope the other staff and other premium content aren't as annoying as Megan.

Last edited by ImOnMyWay : Mon, Aug-27-18 at 21:17.
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  #986   ^
Old Tue, Aug-28-18, 06:49
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Miss Pi, the entire world now seems divided, Left and Right. The Right wants status quo, the Left embraces change. Sometimes people cross over, but most of the time the labels are pretty accurate. Everything is now polarized. Maybe always has been, but now people seem comfortable with striking out at everybody who doesn't agree with them. The only "safe space" is an Echo Chamber, and that is sad, IMO. Hearing alternative views is how I learn.

I will get all I can from my IDM experience, just as I have from following the Fung Protocol.
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  #987   ^
Old Tue, Aug-28-18, 07:08
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
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Has Dr. Oz jumped on the IF train yet? If he has, maybe somebody needs to make the argument that IF isn't magic. Otherwise, I'm not sure anybody's made any magical claims.

If you repeat the CICO mantra, then it's science, otherwise it's magic. Got it.

Does it come down to the old "metabolic advantage" claims of low carb? Some theories didn't pan out so much. Ketones wasted in breath and urine are less likely explanations than "appetite suppression." What happens when I eat less, without appetite suppression? Personally, if I'm already at a lower body weight, I become lethargic, and I go to bed hungry, and I binge. There aren't any magic places for the calories to go to, that's true. But the less insulinogenic/more ketogenic my diet, I don't know for sure which matters or if there's a third thing at work, the less lethargic I am, the less hungry I am, at a given calorie intake and weight.

If you say the type of food eaten doesn't affect the appetite--I don't know if that's magical thinking exactly, but it goes against all sorts of study on cafeteria/buffet/Western-diet type studies. Throw the word "palatability" at it like Stephen Guyunet does--and that's fine. People look at "behaviour" like it's something somebody decides to do, as in willful behaviour. It's very much a response to environment, a person saying that they can just eat any old food in moderation and be just fine is like an alcoholic who says that if they drink alcohol in moderation, they'll be fine--as if the response to alcohol wasn't also physiology, as if the brain wasn't a part of the body.

Does your mental state affect your decisions? Is that magical thinking? Does time of day affect your mental state? More magical thinking?

CICO is first-causes thinking, and first causes thinking is magical, or at least supernatural. At least in the observed universe, causes are generally themselves caused.
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  #988   ^
Old Wed, Aug-29-18, 10:52
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesinger
Miss Pi, the entire world now seems divided, Left and Right. The Right wants status quo, the Left embraces change. Sometimes people cross over, but most of the time the labels are pretty accurate. Everything is now polarized. Maybe always has been, but now people seem comfortable with striking out at everybody who doesn't agree with them.


From my childhood, I remember a world where the Right simply ruled, and the Left skulked in the shadows and struggled to be heard at all.

In 1972, Dr. Atkins published his first book, and was treated as a public enemy as a result. There was no support, no fair hearing for his science and ideas.

He published a book in 2002, and it was different. I like that. It changed my life.
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  #989   ^
Old Fri, Aug-31-18, 08:59
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
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Location: Ontario
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80830084826.htm

Some meal timing stuff at sciencedaily today...

Quote:
Changes in breakfast and dinner timings can reduce body fat


This one's a pilot study for a simple intervention involving eating breakfast an hour and a half later and dinner an hour and a half earlier. This part caught my eye;

Quote:
As part of the study, researchers also examined if fasting diets are compatible with everyday life and long term commitment. When questioned, 57 percent of participants felt they could not have maintained the new meal times beyond the prescribed 10 weeks because of their incompatibility with family and social life. However, 43 per cent of participants would consider continuing if eating times were more flexible.


I think to some degree, incompatibility with family and social life may be an advantage. There are some people I know and love who are annoyed when I won't eat birthday cake. I love them, but in this regard, they can bite me.

And in mice;

Quote:
Time-restricted feeding improves health in mice with defective circadian clocks


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80830113027.htm


Quote:
Summary:
It turns out timing really is everything, at least when it comes to the diets of lab mice whose circadian clocks are disrupted. A study is reporting that limiting the times when the animals eat can correct obesity and other metabolic problems that are normally seen in these mice, even when they're fed an unhealthy diet. The results suggest a previously unknown link between disruption of the clock and eating behavior.


Quote:
It turns out timing really is everything, at least when it comes to the diets of lab mice that have their circadian clocks disrupted. A new study published in Cell Metabolism is reporting that limiting the times when the animals eat can correct obesity and other metabolic problems that are normally seen in these mice, even when they're fed an unhealthy diet. The results suggest a previously unknown link between disruption of the clock and eating behavior.

"This was an unexpected finding," says Satchidananda Panda, professor in the Regulatory Biology Laboratory at the Salk Institute and senior author of the study. "In the past, we have assumed that the circadian clock had a direct impact on maintaining a healthy metabolism, but this puts water on that fire. Our research suggests that the primary role of the clock is to produce daily eating-fasting rhythms, and that metabolic disease is only a consequence of disrupted eating behavior."

Previous studies from Panda and others have shown that having an intact circadian clock tells mice when to eat, at least when the mice have access to healthy food. Mice with defective clocks often have disrupted eating patterns if they are allowed to eat whenever they want. Many of these mutant mice eventually show signs of metabolic diseases, even when they are given only healthy food.

Other studies have shown that when normal mice are given free access to food that's high in fat and sugar, the bad diet overrides the circadian clock. This leads to the mice eating randomly and developing metabolic diseases. However, by restricting the timing of when the mice are allowed to eat to an 8- to 12-hour time window, researchers are able to prevent and reverse the health impacts of the unhealthy diet, as measured by things like high cholesterol and glucose levels and stamina on a treadmill. Such time-restricted feeding also led to robust rhythms in circadian clock components.

"This earlier research led to the theory that that a robustly cycling circadian clock function is necessary to prevent metabolic diseases," Panda says. "With this new research, our question was, 'If the mice don't have an internal clock telling when to eat, can we externally instruct mice when to eat, and will it prevent metabolic diseases?' And the answer we found was that for the metabolic parameters we studied, restricting the timing of feeding prevented health deterioration, even in the absence of a normal clock."

The latest study looked at three different strains of mice that had their circadian clocks disrupted. This is done by knocking out certain genes that are known to regulate internal timing. Some of the mice had access to food whenever they wanted, but others had their eating restricted to a 9- to 10-hour time window. However, the total calorie intake was the same, whether the mice had disrupted clocks or not.

"This study showed us that the benefits of time-restricted feeding in maintaining body weight and reducing metabolic diseases are not dependent on an intact clock," says Amandine Chaix, a staff scientist at Salk and first author of the study.

One of the next steps for the research is to look at how the clock influences the central nervous system and in doing so regulates the urge to eat. The investigators also plan to look at how the findings from the new study apply to humans. "We know that as people get older, they can start to lose their clocks," Panda says. "These findings may suggest new ways to control compulsive eating in people whose clocks are disrupted."
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  #990   ^
Old Fri, Aug-31-18, 13:06
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
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Posts: 1,662
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/000/000 Male 5' 10"
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from Ramos & Fung's IDM email update:

What is “OMAD” and does it work?

One of our brilliant IDM team members, Pete Kaye tackled a BIG topic that comes up in our free Facebook community quite often.

OMAD.

These 4 little letters are often the subject of hot debate in fasting communities, and Pete offered our group quite possibly the best explanation of OMAD we’ve ever heard, including when it’s best used, what it really is, and where it falls in the fasting lineup.

We’ll let Pete explain:

Let’s talk OMAD (a.k.a. One Meal a Day).

A day does not go by at IDM where we’re not asked about OMAD. It’s a very popular subject and for many people who work 9-5 M-F, it meshes nicely into their lifestyles as they can eat their one meal with their families after work.

But many are also shocked to learn it is not a form of fasting as we define it. It’s actually a form of eating; eating one meal a day.

The problem with OMAD is in its repetition. Eating one meal a day is a pattern easily recognized by the body and by doing the same behavior every day, the body does what it does naturally; it adapts. And it’s this adaptation that causes the rub; the body simply slows its Base Metabolic Rate (BMR).

At first when you start OMAD, the BMR stays very high. But after a while BMR inevitably slows down because it does take the body some time to adapt, but it does. First with energy levels, then with other metabolic operations and at some point, as we see quite consistently, BMR just slows down, and the inevitable plateau follows.

If you are trying to lose weight, this is not a good situation. In fact, what we need is just the opposite; a way to speed up BMR. SO how can we do this? There are a few ways…

Alternate Day Fasting, mixing up fasting patterns during the week, and finally longer fasts. OMAD, coupled with a day or two of skipping meals altogether will do it too.

Confounding this argument, there are some instances where OMAD will work. First, there is the person who only has 20-30 pounds to lose. In this case, OMAD works well. Next, there is the class of people who have NO history of yo-yo dieting. The third group are those who are at goal weight, and OMAD is just a good way to do weight maintenance.

Fast on, my friends! Don’t get caught in the OMAD trap! Mix it up; try alternate day fasts; don’t be afraid to join a group fast. We run at least one every week in our free Facebook group the Obesity Code Network (OCN) and members can ask questions freely and get almost real-time answers!

Happy fasting!

~Team IDM
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