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  #3646   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 21:07
fluffybear fluffybear is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,221
 
Plan: low carb/low fat
Stats: 255/236/155 Female 5 ft. 9 in.
BF:32%/?/20%
Progress: 19%
Location: USA
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ps: Bear, what difference does it make what I do or don't say? You are going to discount it anyway. The only people you have agreed with are the ones who fawn all over YOU. Kinda bothers you when I don't, doesn't it? If it didn't you wouldn't be mentioning my name. LOL

Oh and FYI I really haven't disagreed with your premise that humans can live on an all meat diet. I have only disagreed that they should be made to feel like they have to in order to be healthy. I do not believe in the all or nothing approach to anything in life. I like variety. That is not acculturation. That is preference. I come from a family of long-lived people. I am 60 years old and hope to live a long time myself and I don't think that extreme deprivation is something I want to live with for the next 20 or 40 years. Yes, I am overweight as are many on this board and yes I would like to lose that weight, but not to the point of denying myself of EVERYTHING but meat and psychedelic drugs!

Last edited by fluffybear : Fri, May-05-06 at 21:30. Reason: typo correction
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  #3647   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 21:08
sailsouth sailsouth is offline
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Posts: 78
 
Plan: General Controlled Carb
Stats: 225/180/180 Male 185 centimetres
BF:
Progress: 100%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Might I point out that the bogus results pointing to 'glycogen depletion ' are based entirely on a HIGH CARB diet? Zero-carb results utilising the same tests show no depletion takes place.


If that is the case you have a unique perception of what the word "NEVER" means and I would be delighted to see the references to the studies you refer to. If you have "lost" them can I suggest, or could I perform for you, a simple net search for these papers? Lets start with the authors and the publication they were presented in, and an approximate date would also help.
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  #3648   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 21:10
paulm's Avatar
paulm paulm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 113
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 215/185/190 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I am constantly amazed at the the lengths (drivel) to which some of the 'denialists' will stoop. (i.e.fluff, who has so far said nothing whatsoever of any value- Get a life, will you?).


Bear, don't you think that maybe you bring some of this upon yourself since you just blast people when you don't agree with them? It's kind of human nature to react when attacked, threatened or insulted....don't you think?

From the very first person who even hinted that they didn't agree with what you were saying you just flamed them big time. If you want to correct someone who you think is wrong, basically calling them a dumb~ss is not going to get them to stop, smack their forehead and say..."Oh you're right, what was I thinking!!!'.

Anywho, not trying to insult you or start a fight, just pointing out some observations.
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  #3649   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 21:26
nraden nraden is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 144
 
Plan: Lights Out
Stats: 255/225/190 Male 72"
BF:all
Progress: 46%
Location: California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
But the doctors treating cancer DO work on the 'black box' principle- they really don't know exactly how much radiation or chemo (even which chemo) is correct for each case. The know only that if they give you the maximum the body can accept and stay alive they can cure, say, 40% of patients. They know if they give you a considered amount of a certain chemo agent the cure rate can rise to 80%. Each cancer is different, some cannot be done in by the max and some might let go with less than half. This is 'black box' medicine at its purest. Which is why western medicine is better than 'alternative' so far as cancer is concerned- it has proven, 'black box' results.


I'm sorry Bear, that's just ridiculous. There is no cure for cancer. You mean "survive." Survival is a statistic, it's not a state. 5-year survival, 10-year survival. You admitted yourself that you're not "cured," you have lingering, substantial damage (swallowing, saliva). If I have a broken arm and they amputate it, am I cured?

Have your way about the WOE, but stop talking about cancer. You don't get it and you're in denial. You have "survived" a year or two. That isn't cured. I really wish you the best, but I'm afraid you've been suckered into the Conspirarcy of Optimism that surrounds cancer.
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  #3650   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 21:43
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nawchem nawchem is offline
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Posts: 8,701
 
Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 196.0/158.5/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/29.0/27.3
Progress: 80%
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Bear I hope that I have not offended you. I think you are a wonderful resource to this site and a truly interesting person. Being a chemist I am interested in the details of experiments you refer to, but am not being judgemental, just interested. I would like to try to do what you do but I seem to have some type of physical problem that prevents me from even eating induction level carbs. My dr thinks it is pituitary related. I have tried LC for nearly 5 years and have ended up in the ER 5x because I don't retain potassium at the right levels and have heart arrythmias. I am interested in your insight and hope telling you a little about my problem will show why I am so interested in your experiences. I just had my insulin levels tested but have not gotten the results back yet.
Nancy
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  #3651   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 21:57
ubizmo's Avatar
ubizmo ubizmo is offline
New Member
Posts: 384
 
Plan: mumble
Stats: 273/230/200 Male 73 inches
BF:yup
Progress: 59%
Location: Philadelphia, USA
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Anyone who says that muscle cells get energy from the ATP-ADP cycle but *not* from glucose obviously doesn't understand that the glucose-pyruvate-acetyl CoA oxidation pathway contributes the electrons that regenerate ATP from ADP. This is such a fundamental process that to misunderstand it while pretending to knowledge of metabolism is worse than incompetent. It's grotesque. To further insist that anyone who does understand this simple metabolic pathway is "in denial" is pathological.

I think if were committed to the all-meat diet I would be furious to see it championed by someone whose knowledge is so faulty.

theBear could have silenced all his critics weeks ago by simply producing the evidence he claims to have. He claims he has no time or interest in doing so, yet he has time every day to repeat his errors and to berate those who spot them. What does that tell you?

Last edited by ubizmo : Fri, May-05-06 at 22:12. Reason: omitted word
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  #3652   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 22:37
theBear theBear is offline
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Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
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Boy, now I am even getting gratuitous remarks about my relationship to my cancer- from someone without any cancer experience and/or knowledge. Amazing the lengths people in severe dietary denial will go to divert attention from the topic at hand. If you want to really know how I feel about my experience with neck cancer, go back and read what I have previously posted. Incidentally the literature (and my specialists) talks about cancer therapy in terms of 'cure rates', and then lists the chances of survival based on 2, 5, 10, etc. years- by the percentages of treated patients expected to be found in remission. I understand that being presented with this type of linguistic differentiation is causing you some degree of mental pain. You, like many of the mentally challenged detractors lurking on the thread seem to have a need to assign as low a level of intelligence and competence to me as you suffer yourself (otherwise why stoop so low and avoid the real subject so assiduously). Big mistake.


Incompetence extends right down to self-assessment. It is found in evidence in all the person's outputs. It is obvious even to a casual observer, but is never noticed by the incompetent.

And yes, in one meaning, if you have a badly broken arm amputated, you are then definitely 'cured' - of the condition of having a broken arm. However, the term 'cured' is not properly applicable to cases of trauma, it is a term for the reduction and elimination of a pathological state.

Once more, slowly: YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT THIS DIET. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO EVEN ATTEMPT IT. The problem all of you have is purely cultural.

The statement: " I would like to lose that weight, but not to the point of denying myself of EVERYTHING but meat ..."

...Is the purest example of dietary denial based 100% on culture I have heard so far. The truth is, you will continue to struggle and remain fat until and unless your body size and shape as well as your health becomes a strong enough impetus for you to change this attitude. You will then become able to 'deny' yourself your addiction to the wrong food. It is our will power and determination. Don't feel any different, acculturation is the single most powerful thing human, it is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. It completely overwrites intuition. I is far beneath he conscious mind. It takes a serious amount of real will power to overcome and change it.

Yes, I do not expect very many to succeed, but if anyone can manage to get along, I want to be here to support them.

It can be done. Not easy at first, but it is not impossible.

I feel strongly that accepting this path as 'the real human diet' makes your resolve firmer in the face of near universal social opposition.

Nothing I do or say here is random, arbitrary or experimental.

I have misplaced many of my research papers and at the present I am unable to ref the authors and pubs. A pure meat (80/20) diet should in time rectify any mineral unbalances like potassium etc, in a few weeks to months. Potassium pills are an easy temp solution. I would not complain about not tolerating carbs- sounds like a blessing in disguise.

I am spending all (too much) of my spare time dealing with the thread and thus cannot search for the papers.
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  #3653   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 22:46
Rosebud's Avatar
Rosebud Rosebud is offline
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Posts: 23,885
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 235/135/135 Female 5'4
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubizmo
I'm trying to tally up what we know and what we can reasonably infer, in the course of this long thread.

We know that theBear has made a number of claims, including:

1. The human body produces little or no insulin in response to dietary protein.
2. The human body produces its own EFAs.
3. Skeletal muscle cannot use glucose as fuel without first converting it to fat.
4. Animal fat is 90% saturated.
5. A person on an all-meat diet secretes no ketones.
6. Acetone is not one of the ketones produced from the metabolism of fat.
7. Dietary fat is never stored in adipose tissue.
8. Paleolithic people ate no plant foods at all.

The first seven claims are easily shown to be false by basic science sources that are readily checked by anybody who cares to do so. Online sources have been provided by people in this thread. Although theBear modified claim 4 a bit, limiting it to suet fat, the claim is still false. USDA figures show that whole suet is 94% fat, and that fat--indeed the most saturated fat found in animal bodies--consists of about half saturates.

The eigth claim is more speculative, owing to the difficulty of finding traces of plant consumption from the paleolithic period. More refined methods of analysis are beginning to shed some light on this, but there's a long way to go. See http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articl...cgi?artid=58583 for example. What we can say is that no one is in a position to state categorically that paleolithic people ate no plant foods at all.

Now let's add another claim, from post 1185:

9. "There are NO errors in any of my statements."

This, obviously, must be added to the list of claims easily shown to be false.

More recently (post 3354), we read, "I make various statements about how things work. I may or may not 'substantiate' them with references. That I don't choose to do so does not make the statements of less value."

In fact, it does make the statements of less value. theBear has repeatedly taken the position that because he has followed the all-meat diet for 47 years, anything he has to say about it is immune to criticism, because his statements are based on "experience." But, as has already been pointed out, claims 1-8 are not the sort of thing that can be arrived at simply through experience. Following a diet, any diet, for 47 years doesn't put anyone in a privileged position to make any of those claims.

A person who persists in making claims that are easily shown to be false, and who insists that none of the claims are erroneous, and who claims that unsubstantiated statements are no less valuable then substantiated ones, as long as he is the one making them--is not entirely rational. That's perhaps an understatement.

The irrationality of a dieter doesn't invalidate a diet. theBear's *experience* provides a model and some reassurance for anyone who may be inclined to emulate it. His experience does not, and cannot, establish that the "real" or "best" human diet is a totally carnivorous one. One person's experience cannot, in principle, establish such a thing. In particular, it doesn't establish that a totally carnivorous diet is the best possible way to achieve insulin control. theBear may be, for all we know, the only living person who has eaten nothing but meat for over four decades. He is not, however, the only man in his 70s who enjoys vibrant good health, nor has he claimed to be. Moreover, his experience is not the only experience that is relevant to the question of insulin control. My own opinion, based on evidence but by no means conclusively established, is that a fasting BG of 100 is not indicative of a level of insulin control that I would consider ideal, especially in a person with low body fat.

Edit: I meant to add this reference: http://www.aafp.org/afp/20040415/1961.html, in particular this definition of impaired fasting glucose: "IFG is defined as fasting plasma glucose values of 100 to 125 mg per dL (5.6 to 6.9 mmol per L); normal fasting glucose values are below 100 mg per dL (Table 1)."

Ubizmo, you need to add "Insulin is not a 'protein'" to the above list.

Rosebud
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  #3654   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 22:49
theBear theBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
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Say whatever you like- it will not change how the muscles work. I have said before that your sources in re glucose as a power source in muscular contraction are 'bogus': Definition- it looks good, but is not true to real life. I don't understand why you bother spitting out this stuff all the time. Why not just try to eat right according to your own preferred plan, and get on with your life?

Or are you just addicted to indulging in a bit of public self ego-stroking after the fashion of: "Look folks, see how I can repeatedly refute bear's info again and again using the same tired old data".

Good show. Not.
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  #3655   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 22:53
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,770
 
Plan: CRON / Zone
Stats: 118/110/110 Male 5ft 7"
BF:very low
Progress: 100%
Location: Cardiff
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Quote:
Our anorectic detractor needs to type while sitting down, his pathologically low blood pressure causes giddiness when he stands up to post. Or is it his starvation level of triglycerides?


Why you keep talking crap for?

First I am not anorectic and my doctors think that I am in very good health, they know my situation and I go for regular checkups and blood tests. I have not been diagnosed with anorexia. Eating 1800k/cal is NOT exactly starvation.

I do not get dizzy when I stand up

My lipids show the opposite of what one would expect if I had AN. AN causes an increase in lipids. http://www.biomed.cas.cz/physiolres/pdf/2005/54_443.pdf
Look on page 4 you can see a full lipid panel: "Women with anorexia nervosa had increasedlevels of plasma TC, TG, PL and HDL-C." Triglycerdies in AN were 1.21

Heres another one http://www.nutritionsociety.org.uk/.../BJN0910959.htm
"Total cholesterol and LDL-cholesterol were higher in AN (5·5 (sd 1·3) v. 5·0 (sd 0·8) mmol/l, P=0·023; 3·6 (sd 1·1) v. 3·2 (sd 0·7) mmol/l, P=0·025 respectively). LDL particles were significantly more enriched in cholesterol and triacylglycerol in AN."

Last edited by Whoa182 : Fri, May-05-06 at 22:59.
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  #3656   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 22:54
theBear theBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
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Yes rosebud, by all means, repeat and repeat and again repeat these classic lines of nonsense... shows excellent good taste, and of course, all this is very pertinent in assisting those following this dietary path, right?

Sorry, I tend to forget, that's not your strong suit. Playing cop is, however.
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  #3657   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 22:57
theBear theBear is offline
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Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
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'...women with anorexia...'

So now you are a woman? Had your sexchange operation yet?
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  #3658   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 23:03
paulm's Avatar
paulm paulm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 113
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 215/185/190 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: Arizona
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Wow Bear, you are really getting ugly. I wonder if this thread can sink any lower...
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  #3659   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 23:03
Rosebud's Avatar
Rosebud Rosebud is offline
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Posts: 23,885
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 235/135/135 Female 5'4
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Ah, Mr Bear, my comments were not aimed at you, as I know you will simply ignore any comments I make.

I merely wanted to make clear to everyone else that insulin is a protein, and all your protestations cannot make it not so. Anyone can find this information quite simply on the internet, or by looking at any medical or scientific text book.

Rosebud
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  #3660   ^
Old Fri, May-05-06, 23:09
theBear theBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
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You are a walking stick-figure, your online picture resembles the images from the famine in Africa.

I was a very skinny, active kid, and at 18 I was 5'7' and weighed just 125. At 110 you are skin and bone- no muscles, as shown in your pic- how do mange to stand up and walk around? If your doctors think you are fit and healthy- you are in a world of trouble. You are not qualified to criticise anything concerning a proper diet.
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