Once again I am looking for LC Marathoners that consistently break 4 hours
can I get a roll call? My pics for the last marathon (Clearwater on Feb 23) are at http://www.brightroom.com/view_user...93&BIB=184&PWD=
My next race is May 23 in Green Bay, WI. Follow me at www.greenbaymarathon.com

Look forward to hearing from all of you

I am a beginning LC marathoner. My first race is in October. Any tips you want to give to a beginner as far as trainng and especially nutrition.

It depends on what your goal is? For a first timer it can only be one of the following: do you plan to try to run as much of the marathon as possible or do you plan to walk (15 min/mile) the majority of the race?

I plan to run as much as possible. My ultimate goal is to achieve physical fitness over all...starting with training for this race.

Hi Aldini10
I'm glad to see your post. I've read a lot about low carb athletes that use fat for fuel, but none that I could ask a question. :-)

Have you heard the term "fat adapted?" in that a person on long term low carb diets use fat for fuel almost exclusively as opposed to glycogen? The theory is that these athletes will never hit the 'wall' as they are constantly using fat and never run out of fuel, nor do they have to make the switch from carb to fat. No need to carbo load, etc.

In my own experience ( and I am no long term low carber ) within a month I noticed a change in my energy levels while weight lifting. I do multiple sets of 6-10 reps, without stopping except to change the weight. Before, I'd run out of gas before muscle fatigue, but now it is the opposite. I realize it could be just that I've become used to the routines I use, neuro specialization, etc but I'm hoping its an indication of 'fat adaption."

Thanks for the post, looking forward to reading your reply.
AL2105

Hi Aldini10 and AL2105,

I don't know if you count Century Riders as marathoners, but I always beat 26 miles in less than 4 hours, and then go on to do another 25, 50 or 75 miles; sometimes on back to back days. I am a strick LCer, especially on ride days. My dad is a marathon runner ans has always been LCing, especially on run days.

An interesting article appeared in this months "Fitness Rx" that quoted a University of Colorado study that found that cyclists on a low-carb diet performed just as well as those eating high-carbs on endurance tests.

The tough part seems to be converting your body over, what AL2105 referred to as being "fat adapted". An even tougher part comes when you are doing weightlifting and the lifting goes from "aerobic-w/resistance" to "anaerobic-w/muscle-injury". If you are using weight training to push your aerobic threshold, then you should not experience muscle fatigue before running out of gas. The best way to increase muscle size in weightlifting, however, is to slightly injury the muscle and then give it a day to recover as a bigger stronger muscle. This process will tap into your glycogen reserves and could possibly deplete them before you run out of gas.

The question is: What is your goal? Losing Fat or Building Up Muscle? You can LC and lose a lot of fat and build some muscle with the glycogen that your body stores naturally. If you want to make a major push at adding muscle mass, you would probably find it to be easier if you take in more carbs.

J

J, thanks for the post, very enlighting. But my question is, I'm just starting to train and I want to know, where should the balance be. I'm trying to lose weight (20 lbs) gain longer lean muscle and build my running endurance. What do you suggest. I've been low carbing for a while so I am already "fat adapted" As a matter of fact, too many carbs don't agree w/ me physcially. I can digest complex carbs just fine, such as whole grains, veggies, fruit, but not sugar. Any advise you could offer would be great. My race is Oct. 24th in San Fran, the Nike Women's Marathon.

Thanks

loCarbJ
Thanks for the input. I am trying to burn body fat (mostly) right now and use weight training to stave off muscle catabolism as much as possible. I alternate weights with cardio during the week, although even my cardio has a weight component as I use a 20-40# weight vest, depending on that days workout.

There are lots of different definitions of low carb these days, for me it means keeping carb content below 25% of calories, which I've read is the threshold for fat adaptation. I usually have no problem with this, coming in between 9-12% carbs each day (this equates to 50-100gms of carbs).

The great thing about low carb, for me at least, is satiety. I am eating around 2000-25000 kc a day, in three meals but have no desire for snacks or junk food. I've tried vegetarian diets, mixed diets (low fat high protein, etc) and eventually end up eating all day long on any but the low carb. Since my main goal right now is fat burning, I believe keeping calories low is the key to my success (9 lbs in just over a month, 2% BF drop).

Thanks again for your comments.
AL

I have some advice for both of you: If yu can afford it, but a heart-rate monitor. I wear mine daily. Check your heart-rate at various times during your workout and check in with how you feel after those workouts. When I started training, I was really out of shape. 2 1/2 years ago I weighed 232 pounds and was almost no muscle. I had been pushing a pencil while sitting on my butt for the past 15 years.

I started by walking 1 mile each morning to lunch while LCing. My heart-rate while walking was around 110. I felt good during and after the walks so I gradually increased until I was walking faster and greater distances (up to 20 miles a day). Then I added treadmill climbs, then spinning classes, then step-aerobics, weightlifting, elliptical training and then century bike riding. I just finished doing a century ride today and yesterday. Part of the way through, however, my heart-rate during workouts started hitting the 155-165 area. I didn't feel as well after these workouts and in the week after. Through trial and error, I have come to discover that the best workouts I have are when I average 130-140 beats per minute. I finish these workouts feeling good and wanting to come back for more.

You can buy a watch-type heart-rate monitor with strap for about $60 at Target, or you can buy a strapless one (like mine) for about $120 at athetic or speciality stores.

It's true that the harder you work, the more calories you burn. But if the workout depletes your glycogen store, your glycogen window will open and you will feel like you hit the wall, and you will be very hungry for carbs. Many sport nutritionists incorrectly conclude that you have to eat more carbs when working out. I feel that if you listen to you body (and monitor your heart-rate), you can adjust your workout to an optimal fat-burning and truly enjoyable experience, without falling back on carbs to fuel it.

A great book on the subject was written by the worlds greatest LC endurance athelete: Stu Mittleman and his book: "Slow Burn".

J

J, I actually wear a HRM, I use the POLAR brand with the watch. I keep my HR in my total fat burning zone while running, 155-160. I don't feel too worn out and I don't crave carbs. But again, I've been lowcarbing for 3 years.

If I work out too hard and I'm tried, if I eat protein right away, I feel better. I just want to know your workout habits, so I can adjust mine appropriately, since I'm just starting out.

Thanks.

Vanity3,

It's easy to give you my work out:

Daily: 30 min of Cardio as soon as I get up.

Monday: 60 min at lunch, 60 min after work and 120 minutes in the evening.

Tuesday: 60 min at lunch and 60 minutes after work.

Wednesday: 60 min at lunch, 60 min after work and 120 in the eve.

Thursday: 60 min at lunch and 60 min after work.

Friday: 60 min at lunch and 120 min after work.

Saturday: 3 hours of road cycling.

Sunday: 3 hours of mountain biking.

75% of my workout is cardio (at my aerobic threshold), 25% resistance training.

J

I second - both with my readings and my experiences - everything that loCarbJ mentioned. I would add one remark: not only the famous LC endurance athlete Mittleman, but many not "traditionally" LC Marthoner, Marathon trainer gives the SAME advice: to spare glycogen (for the last 6 miles sprint ) you have to train, to run on the race in/under your 80-83% MHRT zone.

When I started to run last January, I was fortunate enough being an unexperienced runner - means: my legs could not run faster than the "fat fule mode" zone. Some other disadvantage that was after all advantage: my stomach refused anything but water before run. So I started to run with emtpy stomach, and kept runnning up to 2 hours on no carb before or during traning. Deanne, I am absolutely sure you can do it. Without any problem.

BUT the problem starts somewhere 10-13 miles or 90-120 minutes. For us, runners without longer long distance past it is very hard to keep our heart rate under the 83-85% for 3-4 hours, simply because of the tiredness. See loCarbJ experience "around half time". Your heart rate starts to climb up mile after mile. Of course you can slow down - but this way you are increasing the time - making you more and more tired. Something else: the temperature. In 70% your heart rate can go up by 5- 10%, in 80F by 10-15%. If you do not start your long runs at 2AM - there is no way to avoid the heat.

Summa summarum: yes, you can run a long way without any carb. BUT because you have relatively short time (25 weeks) to train (your legs, heart, etc.), I would recommend to have a Plan B - just in case. For the 120 min+ runs. No, you do not need huge carb load, but you MIGHT need SOME carbs along the way.
No, this is not a treason against Atkins. One of Atkin's leading researcher doctor, an Ironman himself recommends GU for example during long endurance training.

Btw if you check your Marathon training plan (have you got some chart from TIT?), you will see that 90% of your shorter weekday and weekend long runs SHORTER than 2 hours. You need the "Plan B" only for the 8-10 12+ mile long runs.

I have excellent experience with the GU (20 carbs only) - one at every hour, if I run more than 2 hours.

After your first Marathon you will have plenty of time to train for a "no-carb" cross US run:-)

Go Girl, you can do it:-)))

As I understand it, the body has enough glycogen to fuel about 3 hours of moderate exercise, is that right or in agreement with your sources? So any bout of exercise less than a long distance run, one *should* be able to rely on fat as fuel, no?

We also have to add in the cardio vascular efficiency of the heart. I'm struggling to remember the formulas right now but I believe that one still requires oxygen in certain amounts even to burn fat, isn't that correct? If that is the case one could increase the body's fat burning efficiency over the long term with increased CV values.

If this thread goes any longer I'm going to have to get out my books! LOL!!
Very interesting thread, thanks to all for participating.

AL

p.s. I have a watch heart rate monitor and do check it throughout the day and a couple times during a workout.

Thank you, you are always so helpful. Yo too J.

I do have a training chart. And the long runs are on the weekend. As far as a plan B over all...1/2 marathon. I am going to train as hard as I can and if I get close to the event and i'm not strong enough. I will only do 1/2 the marathon, 13.1 miles instead of the whole 26.2. It will still be a huge accomplishment for me. But my main goal to do my BEST.

GU, I've heard of it...I also saw some energy shots that were sugar free, mainly caffine. Do you have any experience with those?

Right now, since I've been training, I eat a lot more protein, not carbs...is that okay. I find I need it because my muscles tend to ache, especially in my legs. Any diet suggestions?

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the help.

That is a lot of exercise, my man!

You broke down the times for us but what do you actually do each session? Treadmill, cycle, etc? Are your weightlifting sessions during those 120 minute sessions in the evenings?

I thought I was doing good with 2 a days 2-3 days a week. I can see I have a way to go. Thanks for the inspiration!
AL2105