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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-10, 21:01
Scars Scars is offline
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Default A Critique of Good Calories, Bad Calories

This is part 1 of a series of critiques of GCBC. It really underscores the importance of objectivity and giving due scrutiny to research - even if it interferes with our sacred cows.

http://weightology.net/?p=265
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-10, 21:57
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TechShelly TechShelly is offline
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I like the part where he says anecdotes don't equal scientific research, then states that obese people under-report what they ate based on an anecdote about one patient sneaking peanut butter...and the patient wasn't even HIS patient.
This guy's a sheister trying to make a buck off fat, sick people.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-10, 22:16
Bexicon Bexicon is offline
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Interesting... When I read GCBC I was bothered by some of the same things addressed in the critique. I thought he covered some subjects well (like the cholesterol hypothesis) but was weak in others. The book is not treated very objectively in low-carb forums, IMO.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jun-24-10, 22:39
Bexicon Bexicon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechShelly
I like the part where he says anecdotes don't equal scientific research, then states that obese people under-report what they ate based on an anecdote about one patient sneaking peanut butter...and the patient wasn't even HIS patient.
This guy's a sheister trying to make a buck off fat, sick people.

He doesn't state it based on the anecdote; he presents the anecdote as his experience backing up the scientific research, several examples of which are right above the anecdote.

Gary Taubes isn't making a buck?
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 10:42
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is online now
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There's a difference between relating an anecdote about something to illustrate a point being made versus using the anecdote as proof of something.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 11:42
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TechShelly TechShelly is offline
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OK, then, you can all hate on Gary Taubes. Maybe LC isn't right for you.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 11:47
deb34 deb34 is offline
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as a non-scientific person, I would trust some real life anecdotes over much of the "science" published today. It's a known fact that data manipulation/fraud in scientific research is nothing new and certainly not uncommon.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 12:57
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Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deb34
as a non-scientific person, I would trust some real life anecdotes over much of the "science" published today. It's a known fact that data manipulation/fraud in scientific research is nothing new and certainly not uncommon.

While real life anecdotes are tottaly reliable, aren't they? Only scientists lie.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 13:04
deb34 deb34 is offline
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most real life people don't have multi-billion $$ reasons to lie do they? When one person stands to gain nothing by lying about something they experience, the same can't be said of the funded, & granted research community. There's also university tenure and other privileges as well as fame and being published and read by peers on the line for those who admit to data manipulation and fraud. Just read a news report or two of disgraced scientists who perpetrate this kind of fraud on millions of people. It can really be a trust-killer and it's not fair to the honest and hard working scientists out there but because their communities foster such an environment they can be tarnished by the same brush....
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 13:07
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capmikee capmikee is offline
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I thought the article was interesting, but there were definitely points where the author's own bias showed through:

Quote:
It is estimated that we expend an average of 111 calories per day less, which, if not compensated by lower food intake, would result in substantial weight gain over many years.

I'm willing to see a bit more of what he has to say; the criticisms of Taubes in this chapter don't contradict anything that Stephan Guyenet has said, for example.

Anecdotes are a very powerful and useful means of getting an idea across. You can lie with statistics just as much as you can with anecdotes, but people will remember the anecdotes. I trust a good deal of the anecdotal information on this forum because it's usually coming from the source, and I have the opportunity to sample everything that's posted here. The problem with anecdotes in a book or mass-media story is that the authors can choose from a virtually unlimited selection of data and are not bound to present ones that are "typical." You can't read the anecdotes they didn't pick. Of course one hopes that a trustworthy reporter will choose typical stories, but that's a very different scenario from a forum like this.

Last edited by capmikee : Fri, Jun-25-10 at 13:34.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 13:14
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capmikee capmikee is offline
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By the way, why is he starting with Chapter 14? Is he trying to tell us there's nothing wrong with Chapters 1-13? Or is it just an easy target?
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 13:23
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capmikee capmikee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deb34
most real life people don't have multi-billion $$ reasons to lie do they? When one person stands to gain nothing by lying about something they experience, the same can't be said of the funded, & granted research community. There's also university tenure and other privileges as well as fame and being published and read by peers on the line for those who admit to data manipulation and fraud.


Both Taubes and Krieger have something to lose by being "proved" wrong, but I tend to think this guy has more to lose:
Quote:
James Krieger is the founder of Weightology, LLC. He has a Master’s degree in Nutrition from the University of Florida and a second Master’s degree in Exercise Science from Washington State University. He is the former research director for a corporate weight management program that treated over 400 people per year, with an average weight loss of 40 pounds in 3 months. His former weight loss clients include the founder of Sylvan Learning Centers and The Little Gym, the vice president of Costco, and a former vice president of MSN. He has given over 75 lectures on weight loss-related topics to physicians, dietitians, and other professionals.

On the one hand, he's got every reason to want to know the best way to help his clients lose weight. But on the other hand, if he can convince the rest of us that he's the authority on weight loss, he can get a lot more clients. And he has no financial motivation for his clients to keep the weight off after they've lost it, at least not without his continued involvement.

Taubes, in comparison, is someone who was already earning a living as a science journalist, and discovered something that didn't make sense to him. He got very passionate about it, and of course being passionate sells books, but he could have gotten passionate about anything - it didn't really matter to his career what it was.
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 13:33
deb34 deb34 is offline
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when one has a lot to lose, it's easier to throw ethics out the window if massaging some data will keep one on the gravy train. There are some people whose greed for fame/fortune will overcome their scruples quite easily when presented by the "right" temptation. Who needs moral integrity when it can't get you what you want?
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 13:58
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Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deb34
most real life people don't have multi-billion $$ reasons to lie do they?

Most scientists don't have multi-billion budgets either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deb34
When one person stands to gain nothing by lying about something they experience, the same can't be said of the funded, & granted research community.

Money is not the only reason to lie. People are the same everywhere. There is vanity, social acceptance, consistency with one's beliefs, the desire to support our favourite theories. What is true for scientists is true for other people as well. Vegans may not admit they gained fat when they stopped eating animal products for instance.

Then there is the simple fact that anecdotes may be based on a false interpretation of facts. Scientists follow strict protocols that are reviewed by panels and peers, their most unusual results are replicated by themselves and by other groups. Besides, scientists study how to extract information from a dataset through statistics and basic science methodology. Ordinary people don't understand the value of statistics, control groups, changing one variable at a time etc and they often reach the wrong conclusions.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Jun-25-10, 14:08
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Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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You guys are focusing on the wrong issue here. It's not who says what, it's what is being said. That people misreport their calorie intake is a fact that has been reproduced many times by different scientists in different parts of the world. Nothing in that article and nothing in Taubes's book is an original contribution by Krieger and Taubes. They are only reporting data collected by someone else. You should listen to their arguments and decide who makes more sense to you. It doesn't matter who they are. If Hitler believed in low-carb, it wouldn't make low-carb bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
I trust a good deal of the anecdotal information on this forum because it's usually coming from the source, and I have the opportunity to sample everything that's posted here.

The problem is that people don't just rely anecdotes. They select which anecdotes they will post about according to their own biases. And they don't just report what happened. They post their interpretation of what happened, which may be totally wrong. For instance, they say that eating strawberries give them cravings instead of posting everything they ate and when they ate and when they felt cravings so you can draw your own conclusions.
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