Oh, yah, one more thing Andy. I've been married to my lovely wife a long time, I have a wonderful daughter, and I'm a Senior VP and Director in firm where almost 1/2 of our 5,000 employees in Canada are women.

Heh! Heh!

What a thread! My 2 cents: (and I know you didn't ask for it)

I work with many women, actors mostly, where the pressure to be thin is preposterous. Some of them show up in class bone thin, and where there used to be energy and vitality, there is now a sort of anemic tiredness. But hey, their low slung jeans look great, the navel piercings are shining on their tight abs, and they're proud. That's not vanity, that's enslavement.

On the other hand Petie boy, I didn't take much offense to anything you said and found it all amusing. My mother, in her 90's, always said, "Put your nose in the air, and a smile on your face, and your $2.00 Woolworth's dress will look great." She was proud as a peacock, and yes, vain. I'm vain myself. Vain enough to know that what I see now in the mirror ain't what I saw 20 years ago. So, in terms of your visualization stuff, I rather liked what you said, and am in total agreement when it comes to me . But then again, I think I have a fairly healthy maturity about these things.

Perhaps others here may be struggling with deeper and more complex issues, and the defensiveness you sense is just the shock troops guarding the camp: women who've gone around, been around, and know the landscape pretty well. We need them for those who can't do it for themselves. I only wish some of the women I teach could defend themselves so well. Most, sadly, would probably agree with you.

Anyway, to change the subject, try this visualisation: Who's sexier: Marilyn Monroe or Gwyneth Paltrow?

The typical female media role model now looks like a boy. No hips, not even waist definition.

It's a big deal that Camryn Manheim is working. What? SHe's fantastic!

I'm not as sophisticated as Karen, Nat and others who've devoted more thought to this subject. And I can be pretty cavalier and could easily get myself into hot water like you did here. Except for one thing: I'm a woman Petie. It helps. I keep hearing beautiful vibrant young women disatisfied with their bodies. And I'm pretty sure not many of them would debate you. Now how would you feel about that?

There ain't a whole deal of deductive and inductive logic going on here, in my answer, just some ideas I wanted to share with you, so you might have a better lay of the land.

I liked your original post and was going to say "right on! " --- till I read the analysis. At first I thought it was all so humourless, and felt a little sorry for you, still do, because I thought you started off rather earnestly. But then I reconsidered and understood that some people here have thought a lot harder, and a lot deeper about these issues than both me, and you, pal.

SO my advice Pete, is take it on the chin! And no hard feelings okay?

So long guy,

Ruby

I love this site because everyone here speaks from the heart. Sometimes I do not agree with them, but that doesn't make what they say wrong.

What gives a lot of people the willpower to go on is by picturing oneself at their desired weight. This in itself does not cause anorexia or bulimia. I know, I was an anorexic when I was 19. It was not because I falsely saw myself as being too fat - it had to do with alchoholic parents.

Before people start slamming each other unnecessarily, please remember that some of us cannot put into words exactly what we are trying to say. I wish to God I was as eloquent as some of you out there, but I'm not.

When reading these posts, I glean what I can to further help my own cause and then discard the rest.

Now, I will get off of my soapbox. Thanks for your post, Pete - you had some good opinions as well as bad - I took what I could - thanks again for sharing your ideas.

[QUOTE]Don’t use the excuse that the images and standards that are set by society are too difficult to obtain. Picture yourself at 20 lbs or even 50 lbs lighter. It will keep your hand in your pocket next time you reach for something you shouldn’t. Develop some vanity – it goes a long way.[/ QUOTE]

Pete,


This was a very strong and meaningful statement. It really does some a lot of things up. We are all here, because we can and finally are taking control of our weight and no longer blaming society (although their standards are a bit High, I may add.....), but you did sum it all up.

Congrats on your control and your weightloss and your wonderful attitude about it all.

Cindy

OK Pete, as you see, you do have support here. And you are right, Nat has been aggressive as well. I think Ruby and Darla have introduced a positive and very pleasant perspective into this thread, which for me rounds things off here. As you say...truce.

Andy

Now ruby, you don't expect me to tackle that one, do you? Ironic you should mention Camryn Manheim my wife has worked with Camryn in a movie; she says Camyrn’s one of the best.

Hey Pete,
Yes, one of the very best to be sure!

PS. I'm down .5 lbs............!!!

Ruby

Pete... you stumbled into the lioness's den. Having never been a woman.. three is absolutely no way you can relate to the years of objectification of women... the strive for utter body perfection.. that does not actually exist.. and if it does for some women it is usually at the expense of her sanity or health. I can appreciate what you are saying... we should be proud of who we are and have an inner drive of being the best we can be. I also agree that somewhere along the line.. I gave up.. and do give up periodically... then reaffirm to myself.. I am worth being healthy. and having a body in which I feel comfortable in my own skin.

Thanks for giving us all something to think about...

Ramona

RomonaK,

I appreciate what your saying and I do understand your point. You’ve actually hit the nail on the head. So many readers missed the point. My biggest disappointment in this whole thread is that it reveals the objectification that women feel and how defensive some have become. That’s the irony in the whole thing. What’s troublesome is that many women assume men cannot relate to the problem of living up to an image. But if you re-read my very first post, you will see that I related to it very well. I experienced it first hand.

Well i am sort of afraid to respond lol
not really, I did think pete was just pointing out the bennifits of seeing your self ( in a loving way) how you can be not how you should be. Not by some standard set by someone else but by your own.I have changed how I see myself I now. I also know the the way we talk about our selves either to our selves or infront of others does matter. for that matter how we think about our selves, and coming here has been very benificial so many people who are succesful and people who are having trouble and knowing theres a place that you can find help, infomation, support and of course opinions.

Hi guys, I've been a silent observer here and find this thread very interesting, not to mention very passionate!

Pete, I'm not sure if vanity is the right word to describe what you elaborated on? In any event, it a thought provoking discussion.

There are so many levels to our desire to lose weight.

Motives/Goals:

1. Some of us want to look good, since we love ourselves.

2. Some of us want to lose weight in order to love ourselves.

3. Some of us want to lose weight to have someone else love us

Methods:

1. Some of us are willing to try anything to reach that goal.

2. Some of us follow what "authorities" tell us to do.

3. Some of us research and chose what works for us.

Tracking progress:

1. Some of us track our progress by how much weight we lose through the scale (thinness).

2. Some of us track our progress by how much fat we lose through the tape (leanness).

3. Some of us track our progress by how much better we feel (health).

Of course there are more options, but 3x3x3 of each could show how wide a variety of opinions we'll get on this topic.

In addition, those of us who have lost weight a lot of times and gained it back repeatedly tend to focus on the psychology of weight loss and body image to avoid bad mistakes.

My own choice from my experience so far is that I love myself as I am right now, and I love to get leaner and healthier. And I visualize what I'll be like when I reach goal, and I like it too, and look forward to it.

So I quite agree with you on the visualization part. However, I strongly beleive that DrB is essentially setting a trap for his customers by following a 900 calories plan. It works great for the 3 months, and afterward, your metabolism cannot sustain a maintenance plan easily, and the weight creeps up again and it's time for another crash diet.

I respect your opinion, and his (DrB), but I don't think it's the right approach. Nonetheless, I hope it works for you. At the end of 3 months, you may consider weight training to recover some LBM and ensure a healthy metabolism for maintenance.

Wa'il

tamarian,

I tend to agree that a person really has to come to grips with what he or she is going to do once he or she gets through the "diet" phase of Dr. Berstein's program. But I think a common sense approach can work and certainly restricting your carbohydrate intake is very important. That's why I think this forum is pretty good. I must say, the Doctor I spoke to at the clinic (and my own doctor) warned me that I would have to permanently change a few things regarding my lifestyle. I thought it was quite sensible advice and I didn't get the same impression other's seem to have from the Bernstein program. I think you can always gain weight back if you revert to the same eating habits that got you there in the first place. Anyway I haven't been to Berstein's since Christmas and so far so good. I wonder how others are doing with this.

Funny you should mention weight training. I have been doing that to get the tone back into certain parts of my body. Now that is slower going. By the way, have you (or anyone else) ever reviewed the Health Canada Body Mass Index Charts? No doubt this will provoke the next round of technical discussion, but I don't think I've ever been in the statistical "norm". I have always been about 10-12 lbs. heavier than I look or feel since I was a teenager. Skeletal structure and muscle content must have a little to do with it. Anyway, I'm not too concerned about that, since I can still see where at least 5-8 lbs. is hiding.

Pete

Just visited the site and plugged in my numbers. Fascinating.

My problem is now revealed I am UNDERTALL not OVERWEIGHT.


I should be 7 feet tall and have formed a group called HeightWatchers which I think will be very profitable. Each month at the meetings the group will be measurered and then encouraged to sit up straight and think tall. Then we will walk around with books on our heads chanting the Heightwatchers mantra "Every day in every way I am getting taller and taller"

Of course there will be some cheating and stillettos will be banned but the hidden lifts will be difficult to spot. Wa'il has agreed to us having our own section on this site and is checking out rack sponsors and Doreen is investigating the science behind growth hormones.

Karen is working on low carb height recipes but is completely stumped all the ingredients are on the top shelf and she is undertall too.

Before I get too enthusiatic I had better just check that BMI again I might have misunderstood

Rustpot you crack me up!

Thanks for the lighthearted approach.

Rustspot,

That's funny! Yep, the undertall society. I can just see it now....