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  #76   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 11:47
FromVA FromVA is offline
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Plan: DANDR
Stats: 191/153/145 Female 66.5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
That's your opinion. For a carb addict, triggers can be emotional AND physical, ask any carb addict that has inadvertently eaten some MSG!! And like I said, the carb addict, unlike others, has constant exposure to and surely at least twice a day possible ingestion of his/her "drug" to survive. Are you trying to tell me that other addicts are forced to play Russian Roulette with their addictive sources twice or more times a day?

I'm not saying there might not be emotional issues, there might be. But the emotional issues are far outweighed by the physical ones. In fact the physical ones might lead to or escalate the emotional ones.

Hogwash! What you are saying here is that the obese are "bigger" victims of their addiction than any other addicts and therefore should be excused from not trying to do a thing about it. I bet former smokers probably inadvertantly walk through second-hand smoke more than twice a day, and that will always trigger the desire for a cigarette. You are giving food a lot more power than it deserves. The food didn't make us fat...the over-consumption of it did!
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  #77   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 11:56
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Plan: My Own
Stats: 280/118/117.5 Female 5ft 5.25 in
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
That's your opinion. For a carb addict, triggers can be emotional AND physical, ask any carb addict that has inadvertently eaten some MSG!! And like I said, the carb addict, unlike others, has constant exposure to and surely at least twice a day possible ingestion of his/her "drug" to survive. Are you trying to tell me that other addicts are forced to play Russian Roulette with their addictive sources twice or more times a day?

I'm not saying there might not be emotional issues, there might be. But the emotional issues are far outweighed by the physical ones. In fact the physical ones might lead to or escalate the emotional ones.

What you don't understand is you, as a carb addict, do not look at the world in the same way as a person without your particular addiction.

If you ask an alcoholic, he will tell you alcohol permeates and saturates his world EVERYWHERE. He is incessently taunted by comercials which promise drink as a panacea which abates all troubles and worries. Whereever he goes, he smells beer, he sees beer, he walks by a pub and with every bit of restraint he can muster he tries to pass by without entering.

When you are addicted to a substance, when you have become not only physically dependent, but also so emotionally and behaviorally dependent on it as a coping mechanism, to have it taken away, it is devistating. It becomes all you can see, you feel like you are bombarded by it. It is all you can think about.

You as a carb/food addict see cookies, cakes, and other old favorites everywhere you go. Normal people don't think like that. Normal peole don't see a cookie or whatever it is you may fancy, and feel they are being bombarded and broken down. This is because they have a normal physical chemistry, and a normal emotional relationship with food.

If you are to be successful at controlling your addiction, you must recognize this. You must realize the way you feel may be out of control, but the way you react to these triggers, the creation of triggers is in your control. One thing you can do is find counceling. Counceling to learn alternate coping mechanisms will go a long way to rid yourself of the emotional triggers. Once you learn new ways to quelch or deal with stress, anger, happiness, boredom, etc, you will find "trigger food" (that is food that reminds you of comfort food, but doesnt actually elicit the physical symptoms) holds less of a hold over you. I also recommend reading Dr. Phil's book. Potatofree can't say enough good things about it.
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  #78   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 11:59
Alina's Avatar
Alina Alina is offline
SPOILED
Posts: 4,898
 
Plan: Atkins Life Maintenance!
Stats: 184/152/154 Female 173 cm/5,8
BF:In right places...
Progress: 107%
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
We can say lc will solve the problem for the members of NAAFA. But will it? For all of them? How many will fail? The first time? The second? The third?
LC DOES get harder to lose the weight on each time for some, you know. How many posts have we seen from members returning? How many of those coming back are even larger than before? This is reality folks!!! Maybe not your reality or mine but it is the reality for some!!!



So who can tell if a person will succeed or not? Who will adapt LC as a lifestyle and who will not? Are you saying that person D shouldn't even try because persons A, B and C have failed?

Are those who succeed somehow 'less addicted'? Have more luck? Anything else? Can one person be less addicted in the first place? I am a 100% carbohydrate addict too.

As for the cigarettes - don't even go there. My DH is a smoker, in every place I go people do smoke, the smoke is coming into my flat via ventilation system....I would have a lot to blame on if I failed to quit.

Alina
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  #79   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 12:49
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
That's your opinion. For a carb addict, triggers can be emotional AND physical, ask any carb addict that has inadvertently eaten some MSG!! And like I said, the carb addict, unlike others, has constant exposure to and surely at least twice a day possible ingestion of his/her "drug" to survive.


The way you phrase this almost makes me think that you believe that the carb addict has no control over and MUST GIVE IN TO triggers if and when they encounter them while the drug or alcohol addict somehow has more control or a greater ability to not give in to their triggers when they encounter them? Nonsense! Recovering alcoholics and ex-smokers are constantly exposed to their former drug of choice through commercials, magazine ads, second hand smoke, alcohol added to sauces that they wouldn't expect, mouthwash, medicines, even vanilla extract added to a dessert. They also get to watch friends, family and total strangers indulge in their former drug of choice everywhere they go. If you believe that they are not being confronted with temptation and triggers several times a day, you're sadly mistaken. Do they sometimes lapse? Yes. Does the fact that a trigger caused that lapse excuse it? No. My DH works in addiction recovery. If one of their clients relapses and then tries the excuse of "I couldn't resist", his response is usally along the lines of "Bulls***. You had a choice and made the wrong one".
Another thought...does encountering a trigger and making a bad choice justify continuing to make bad choices and giving up because of that one situation?
Excusing a carb binge because you accidentally ingested some MSG and it was a trigger for you (it's not for all carb addicts, BTW...has no efffect on me whatsoever) and had no control over what they chose to eat next and for the next several hours/days/months is just that...an excuse. When it comes down to it, it's MY hand picking up that food and putting it in my mouth and it's MY decision to chew and swallow it. I can stop that process at any point if I consciously choose to. While I may not be completely able to avoid a trigger, I am able to consciously control how I will choose to react to it. We all make mistakes and bad choices from time to time. Using a previous mistake or bad choice as an excuse to continue making them or rationalizing that you are incapable of making better choices in the future because of the ones you have made in the past is, again, nothing but an excuse.
This all reminds me of a discussion I had with my daughters last night when they got into an argument and of them hit the other. The one who hit tried to excuse her behavior with, "Well, she made me do it...she made me mad!". I wasn't buying it and pointed out to her that her sister did not make her angry..that it was her choice to react to the situation with anger and hitting and it was well within her power to make a better choice the next time.

Last edited by Lisa N : Tue, Feb-10-04 at 15:27.
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  #80   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 14:21
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Plan: LC, GF
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
..This all reminds me of a discussion I had with my daughters last night when they got into an argument and of them hit the other. The one who hit tried to excuse her behavior with, "Well, she made me do it...she made me mad!".

Brings back memories (old!) of Flip Wilson and "the DEVIL made me buy this dress!"

~~~~~~~~

We are not powerless over our eating urges. It's true that various hormones can trigger all kinds of unpleasant physiologic symptoms and sensations .. but how we respond to those sensations is ultimately up to our conscious choice. We may not be able to control the feelings and sensations of hunger or a food craving, but we have considerable voluntary control over the muscles of our hands which guides food into our mouths .. and we have considerable voluntary control over our food choices. A surge of insulin only signals to the brain "hunger pang". It does NOT say "Oreos".


Doreen
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  #81   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 14:27
kyrasdad's Avatar
kyrasdad kyrasdad is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 338/253/210 Male 5'11"
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Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma
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For me, it boils down to this: whatever metabolic, physical, or emotional disadvantages I have, I'm still the one who is responsible for, and who must deal with, my situation. Nothing changes that. Nobody else can do it for me. I was born with some disadvantages in this area. I've still got to deal with it.

I think that unlike alcoholics, who must first recognize their powerlessness, that fat people must embrace their power to deal with it. For us, it's all about understanding the power we do have.

I think we have to resolve not to be victims. The point of control is ours, we just have to use it. I found it empowering to finally come to this choice in my own life. There is a sense now that anything is possible, and as an obese person, we all know that the path to "anything" must first go through dealing with our weight.

That, to me, is more positive than any kind of victimology NAAFA seems to want to propagate.
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  #82   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 14:41
kyrasdad's Avatar
kyrasdad kyrasdad is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 338/253/210 Male 5'11"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
If you're healthy but overweight...maybe you'd be better off if you don't start playing!!


Can you even be healthy and overweight? Most doctors would tell you that's a contradiction.

Isn't it like saying the alcholic is better off to keep drinking than to go through the agony of trying to kick it, if he's doing all right most of the time?
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  #83   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 14:43
Gizerd's Avatar
Gizerd Gizerd is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 222/213/135 Female 5'7"
BF:47%
Progress: 10%
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What doesn't make sense about this debate are two things:

1. Why do all of us care what these people do to make themselves happy? You should learn what they are about, decide to follow the belief or not, then leave those people alone.

2. I read the war zone posts and all day you see people coming here to argue with LC, or posts referencing people arguing with LC. We immediately defend ourselves and jump all over their opinion.

So my question is:

If we GO to look for controversy, and we STAY to find controversy...do we portray people who just like to argue?

Inteligent debate, in a welcome environment can be a great thing. Make sure you debate in the welcome environment, otherwise it's called badgering.
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  #84   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 15:03
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
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Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
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I see my point has been made very eloquently by those who precede this post, but I have to add ONE thing. To ME (and this is MY personal opinion) to give in to the "poor me" thinking instead of working to change your environment, thinking, food choices and deal with the triggers that make you WANT to overeat (which we are NOT helpless to defeat!) a person WILL fail on any "diet" they start.

You have to change your whole relationship with food to overcome the self-destructive choices that support being obese.
You can't lose if you don't try, but you can't WIN, either!
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  #85   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 15:38
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
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Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
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Location: Maryland, US
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Just because you feel it is a contradiction doesn't make it so. In this thread you've heard from a few obese people that though obese they were healthy!! There are many of average weight who are not. As I said, NAAFTA does not support dieting but does support health.

Quotes have been made that purport to support the position that NAAFA doesn't support correcting health problems of the obese but encourages them to remain fat and grow ever larger.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lisa N NAAFA'S OFFICIAL POSITION:

Since reducing diets rarely achieve permanent weight loss and can result in negative health consequences, since laws and regulations protecting the consumer are nonexistent or remain unenforced, and since people undertaking diets are rarely given sufficient information to allow them to give true informed consent, the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance strongly discourages participation in weight-reduction dieting.
------------------------------------------------------------------

They give no exceptions to that statment. It's a blanket statement across the board for all persons who are overweight.


Now let's see how they arrived at that stance
Quote:
The term "diet" within this policy refers exclusively to weight reduction diets. "Dieting" is defined as any attempt to achieve or maintain lower body weight by intentionally limiting or manipulating the amount or type of food intake. Weight reduction diets include medically supervised diets; self-administered diets; commercial diet organizations and centers; weight-loss support groups or behavior modification programs; "fad" diets; "sensible, well-balanced" diets; in-hospital fasts; very-low-calorie diets (VLCDs); prepackaged food plans; and diets supplemented by drugs or artificial food products or supplements.

"Dieting" does not refer to attempts to lower fat sugar, salt, or cholesterol intake, increase fiber intake, exercise or pursue a medically mandated nutritional regimen prescribed for specific medical conditions. Weight-loss diets have long been promoted as a permanent cure for "obesity," although they rarely produce long-lasting or permanent results. According to existing medical research, fewer than five percent of all dieters succeed in losing a significant amount of weight and maintaining that weight loss over a five-year period. Ninety percent of all dieters regain some or all of the weight originally lost and at least one-third gain more. In recent years, an increasing body of research has substantiated this diet failure rate and acknowledged genetic and physiological factors in the determination of body size.

Although these statistics apply to all types of diets, even those considered "sensible," physicians continue to prescribe weight-loss diets as a viable treatment for fat patients; and researchers, the media, and the diet industry continue to urge fat people to resist their body's natural predisposition and struggle harder to lose weight. As diet failure rates become widely publicized, some "experts" pretend to abandon "dieting" and encourage their clients to "just eat less and exercise more."

Promoting diets and diet products is a major industry in the United States. According to Marketdata Enterprises, the annual revenue for the diet industry was over $30 billion dollars in 1990. This figure includes money spent on diet centers and programs, group and individual weight-loss, diet camps, prepackaged foods; over-the-counter and prescription diet drugs; weight-loss books and magazines; and physicians, nurses, nutritionists, and other health professionals specializing in weight-loss (total 1990 revenue - $8 billion); commercial and residential exercise clubs with weight-loss programs (total 1990 revenue - $8 billion); and sugar-free, fat-free, and reduced calorie ("lite") food products, imitation fats and sugar substitutes (total 1990 revenue - $14 billion).

The diet industry's advertising and marketing strategy is based on the creation and perpetuation of fear, biases, and stereotypes. Fat people are portrayed as unhealthy, unattractive, asexual, weak-willed, lazy, and gluttonous. Weight loss or a thin figure are equated with virtue, health, and success. Failure to participate in dieting or lack of success in losing weight are blamed on a lack of willpower or determination and a lack or moral values. Fat people are taught to feel guilty and blame themselves for
the failures of weight-loss programs, and to expect and accept rejection, mistreatment, and discrimination regarding their weight. This negative media campaign has a devastating impact on millions of fat people. These messages lower fat people's self-esteem and foster discontent, self-doubt, and self-hatred, especially during the weight regain state of the dieting "yo-yo" cycle.

Diet promoters also emphasize dieting's supposed health benefits and minimize risks related to dieting. People of all sizes are misled about the extent and severity of the health risks associated with being fat and are told that being thin is the only way to good health, and that dieting makes people thin. Many health problems traditionally attributed to "obesity," such as high blood pressure, heart problems, high cholesterol, and gallbladder problems, are often caused by the dieting process itself. Recent studies indicate that repeated "yo-yo" dieting may actually reduce one's life span rather than increase longevity.

Currently there are very few controls or regulations to inform and protect the dieting consumer. Weight loss "success" is only vaguely defined using short-term results, and weight loss "failure is always blamed on the consumer, and health risks are not disclosed. The few regulations that do exist are rarely, or at most, loosely enforced.


I would like to emphasize this NAAFA stance
Quote:
"Dieting" does not refer to attempts to lower fat sugar, salt, or cholesterol intake, increase fiber intake, exercise or pursue a medically mandated nutritional regimen prescribed for specific medical conditions.


Seems to me that that is an exception.

Re the comments about giving in to carb urges and choice. I have seen some of you who are commenting to me remark how you stuffed your faces when triggered, true it was lc but you stuffed your faces. CAD, for me, controls carb addition. I don't think of carbs because I can have them once a day. I certainly don't obsess about them and, in fact, can have carbs in my house and ignore them for months on end. I don't have bottomless hunger which is the reaction of a carb addict uncontrolled. I get full, sometimes before the meal has "ended". I don't see carbs everywhere!! They don't call to me!! At least not if I'm not accidentally triggered. And if I am, the feeling is so foreign to my daily "me" that I know immediately what has happened and how to deal with it. And believe me, that is not to cram my face with carbs!!! I don't have any emotional issues regarding my weight. I dealt with my "emotions" around my weight years ago (and many of those issues were created by being overweight and other peoples' treatment of me and not from emotions themselves.) Which comes first? The fat. A fat child is accepted and loved, it's when the "loving" comments and criticism starts that the emotional issues arise.

But I remember....I remember how I was before CAD. I remember the uncontrollable urges and the not understanding what was happening. The how can I be hungry I just ate feeling. The bottomless pit feeling. The never being satisfied...the always being hungry and the more I ate...the hungrier I would get. That was not emotional...that was physical. It was real.

And how did the spiral start? My mother put me on my first diet at eight with a "diet" doctor. Years later I was transporting my medical charts from my regular and long-term health center and sat down to read them from the beginning. About my eight year old self, I read, "Patient is healthy. She is at the top of her group for weight. Parents and all siblings are thin. Mother is obsessed and determined daughter is fat and must lose weight. Problem is with the mother."

Do you know how that made me feel years later as an adult, mother to my own growing daughter, "Problem is with the mother." That's when I determined to accept myself and stop the madness!!!
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  #86   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 15:38
WeeOne's Avatar
WeeOne WeeOne is offline
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Posts: 465
 
Plan: Atkins/Counting Calories
Stats: 173/165/145 Female 5'1"
BF:
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Location: Washington State
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Stupid question... What is NAAFA??????

I must be living under a rock! LOL

Wee
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  #87   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 15:47
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeeOne
Stupid question... What is NAAFA??????


http://naafa.org/

Wa'il
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  #88   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 16:01
potatofree's Avatar
potatofree potatofree is offline
Fully Caffeinated
Posts: 17,245
 
Plan: Back to Atkins
Stats: 298/228/160 Female 5ft9in
BF:?/35/?
Progress: 51%
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"Problem is with the Mother".....

To me, that spells it all out. If your mother hadn't been so focused on your weight, you may not have developed an unhealthy relationship with food in the first place. I don't have a chrystal ball... but I'd imagine, although you would likely STILL have been genetically destined to be bigger than "average", you may not have ended up AS heavy. To ME (again, my opinion only) it's not the fault of the food, but the mindset that supports overweight.
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  #89   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 16:05
suleika suleika is offline
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Stats: 196/172/154 Female 5'6
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Progress: 57%
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Interesting how strong the urge is to persuade others of our point of view. I have three points to make, and I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with the first. The second and third, however, I would love if people would take on board, and so I really hope I can put it well enough.

1. IMO, a fat acceptance association would work better for its members if it accepted that some of its members might want to diet and might intend to diet and might even be dieting. If the very mission statement of the association discourages dieting, it automatically excludes some fat people. If I ran the world, er, sorry, NAAFA, I would maintain a neutral position on dieting (i.e. "we neither encourage nor discourage it but we are aware of the risks of yo-yo dieting and we ensure that this information is publicly displayed to our members").

2. People who enter the NAAFA know what the policy is and I would suggest we leave them and the association alone, unless we want to become members and change it from within. If in the NAAFA there were any brainwashing techniques involved, i.e. if it qualified as a cult, then I would condone intervention. Likewise, if there were human rights violations. However, as it is, I may hold a negative opinion about the association and yet not try to persuade others of the rightness of my opinion.

3. I happen to believe it is generally a bad idea to advise people of anything unless they ask for our advice. I don't even believe it's a good idea to "challenge people's minds" about things that do not harm others, unless I have been invited to, especially on sensitive issues like fatness. People have talked on this thread about advising people what to do, or (referring to the original thread) about opening people's minds or opening discussions ... If you believe that it is helpful to open the discussion with fat people about dieting, I ask you:

- Do you think that people haven't heard already that they "need to lose weight"? If it didn't work saying it to them the first thousand times, why would it work when you suggest it (however subtly)?

- Have you ever considered that telling someone what they should do might well be a gift of negativity for them? Could this not be true even if we think the person is too defensive and "should know better" and "should" be able to hear what we say and then say "no, thank you, I am doing my own thing". What is our desired outcome when we tell that person what to do? If our desired outcome is that they do it, we may well have made it less likely that they will. Just something to bear in mind when we get all incensed about something that feels madly "wrong" to us.

Gez

Last edited by suleika : Tue, Feb-10-04 at 16:07.
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  #90   ^
Old Tue, Feb-10-04, 16:15
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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What is "over-weight" and what is a "healthy weight"?

What, if anything, should be done to those who are "over-weight"?

Who is entitled to "self-acceptance"?

Can anyone deny someone else's self-acceptance if they're 300lbs, 400lbs? 500? 250?

If one accept themselves at 400 lbs, can they choose to be 300? or did they "betray" their original self acceptance? If you accept a "state" of yourself, do you have to stick with it? If you want to get healthier by loosing weight, do you have to wait for that weight to accept and love yourself?

This is a really tough issue. What's worse, it's easily misunderstood, as it's not a 2-way choice.

Anyone remembers Annamarie?

http://www.lowcarb.ca/anamarie.html

We've had a similar emotioonal debate over her case in the old mailing list.

There's really no contradiction in accepting ourselves while "overweight", and also accepting getting healthier by reducing our weight. But "healthy weight" have change overtime. Check this ad:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/gallery/...&sort=1&cat=508

Do we have to agree on an exact formule to each person's healthy weight, and if we disagree, do we have to force our opinions on those who don't meet our guidlines?

Justfood for thought

Wa'il
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