Hi,

At 165lb and 6'3 a lot of people would not describe me as fat, but skinny. A few people have been shocked that I want to lose weight. The problem is I have the skinny-fat problem, I am skinny, but I have about 20-25% body fat which means I have a bit of a belly and you cannot see any definition, tone or abs and my waist is 36". I have decided I want to bring down my body fat to just under 10%. When I reach that goal I want to start a clean bulking diet to add lean muscle mass. I am looking to achieve this in about a year. According to my calculations, I will need need to lose about 40lb of fat, and end up around 120-130lbs.

I have been on a lot fat diet low calorie diet, typical daily macro was: 1200 cals, approx 15g fat, approx 100g protein, 255g carbs. I have recently started the Atkins diet, my current macro is: 1,124 cals, 30.45g carbs, 123.6g protein, 39.45g fat. Most recently I brought my macro down to: 1,300 cals, 20g carbs, 123.6g protein, 40g fat.

Now my question is the protein and fat sufficient? Do I need to reduce protein and increase fat or can I maintain it like this?

Based on my newbie knowledge that I can put my body into ketosis at 20g carbs, but too much protein can kick it out of ketosis. I am not sure what too much protein is. Is 100-120g too much? Secondly, I have significantly increased my fat intake from approx 15g per day to 40g per day, but I feel reluctant to increase it further. Given that ketosis is to burn my body fat, by increasing fat won't the body just use the consumed fat for its energy rather than the body fat?

Thank you for your help.

How are you measuring to get 25% body fat? A target of 120-130 on 6'3" frame is underweight by a lot, possible anorexia range (I had a daughter diagnosed that's how I know)

You can try a keto calculator. If you want 120 grams of protein which sounds ok to me, and you want 1300 calories which sounds too low just my opinion, you would want 70 grams of fat. Not 200 grams of protein.

Why are you reluctant to increase fat?

Sure, if there is enough extra fat, the body will burn diet fat before body fat. you are waaaaaay not there. But consider that diet fat is all kinds - omega 3, o6, all kinds of different sat fats - and body fat is mostly just one or two - white or brown fat. If you don't get a variety of fat from your diet, your metabi
olism has a harder time adapting to fat burning.

At 36 inches, you have a waist to height ratio of 4.8. Cutting to 130 pounds won't give you abs, it will give you well-defined bones.

I have doubts about your body fat, most methods of measurement aren't all that accurate. But if they are accurate--that wouldn't mean for me that you have excess body fat to lose, so much as that you have a low reserve of lean mass.

I think you should go straight to the clean bulk, skip the weight loss entirely.

I'm 5 foot 7, not that big-boned, and the idea of going down to 130 would scare the crap out of me.

Hi Seejay, thank you for your reply.

I do not really have any professional means to calculate my body fat, so I am just using basic visual guides and calculations on waistline to body weight ratio to calculate I must have about 20-25% fat. Considering I have a waistline of 36in and my stomach slightly hangs out and also jiggles when it moves, I think I can rule out 10-15%, leaving 20-25%.

I do share your concern that 120-130lb is very low on 6'3, but I don't think I have much choice. If it is true I have 20-25% body fat now, to start bulking up from here will just add even more body fat, and a lot of that is going to go on on the stomach. So I have decided to first lose the flab I have and then go on a bulking phase.

Regarding fat. I am mostly trying to eat only healthy fat saturated,monosaturated, polysaturated. I am getting most of my 40g of fat from nuts(peanut butter, almonds) cheese(feta, cheddar, mozzarella, cottage) and olive oil and olives.
I think my concern regarding fat is probably a universal newbie apprehension -- I don't want to add further to my body fat.

You might be right about the low muscle mass. I suffer from hypogonadism, which means I have low testosterone. This makes it very difficult for me to to put on muscle mass and easier to put on fat. I am also ectomorph to boot.

If I went on a clean bulking phase would the fat I have on my body convert to muscle?

Are you on testosterone replacement therapy?

Is the low testosterone a long-standing issue for you? Had you done any considerable amount of dieting before diagnosis?

Low calories and low fat aren't really a good idea for somebody with low t.

http://www.nutritionexpress.com/art...cle.aspx?id=222

Jeff Volek has an article here on testosterone levels.



You're coming out of a low-calorie, low fat diet, and already at a low body weight--these are things that beat the crud out of testosterone levels. Testosterone encourages muscle growth, and discourages belly fat. Like I said earlier, your waist circumference isn't that big if compared to your height. But it probably is high given your weight. You might feel that eating more will just make for more belly fat--but if it brings your testosterone levels up, it might just do the opposite.

Get enough sleep, eat enough food. Lift weights. And don't do massive amounts of endurance exercise to try to compensate for the extra food.

I was diagnosed with low T when I was 16, when I went to see the doctor because of delayed puberty. I was then put on HRT for a year and I was able to experience puberty i.e., voice deepened, hair growth, genital growth. However, the treatment was discontinued after a year and I never looked back again or checked to see if my T levels had become normal. Now at 35 I think that might have been a mistake, because looking at my body it seems to be lesser developed than a normal male body, especially in the chest area, and the left side is more developed than the right side. Although I have tried bodybuilding in the past, it made little change to my body. I always struggle to put on weight and the weight I do put on tends to be fat.

I am unhappy with the flab I am carrying around my stomach area, I especially don't like how it rolls when I sit, this is why I want to lose it. Hence me taking up weight loss diet. I don't see how I will lose this flab by going on a clean bulk + weight training. I was not too long ago 180lbs and I managed when I was younger 190lbs and the body fat around the stomach did not go.

I think if I follow the Atkins diet at least until I lose the body fat around the stomach, then I can start the clean bulk phase. If I bulk now, I can't see it shrinking. I am also going to consult with my GP about resuming the HRT.

Can you suggest a healthy daily calorie and macro ratio in the format cal, carb g, protein g, and fat g?

Were you underweight, a picky eater, etc., when you were sixteen? It's still possible that under nutrition was a factor. If that's not it, and your body just doesn't produce as much testosterone as usual, nothing will address your problem without hormone replacement therapy. No diet or exercise program will give you your desired results until the hormones are in line.




Is that protein a misprint? Or are you coming out of a fruitarian diet or something? Pretty hard to hit those macros, especially to have had protein that low, otherwise. Also, if that's how you got down to 165, it's not too shocking if that didn't improve your fat to lean mass ratio. Carbohydrate can spare protein, to a point. But only to a point, a very low protein, high carb, low calorie diet will instead increase the ratio of lean mass to fat mass that's lost.




Honestly, I'd suggest at least a 100 grams of fat, and to keep total calories over 2000, whether they come from an increase in fat or in protein.

One more thing--you're new to low carb dieting, right? Many people go on low carb and find that they're not losing weight, but still getting less fat. In some low carb diet books--a book called Life Without Bread comes to mind--there are anecdotes where underweight people go on a low carb diet and their weight increases--not saying that they get fat, but that they fill out, gain lean mass like you're hoping to. It's entirely possible to put on lean mass while losing belly fat.

Speaking of wheat--probably a long shot, but have you ever been tested for celiac? Malnutrition can affect testosterone levels, celiac disease can cause malabsorption of nutrients.

No, I have never been a picky eater. I have normally eaten over 2500 cals and when I hit 190lb I was eating 3000-4000 cals a day. I think it is probably the low testosterone that is preventing me from gaining the muscle mass and putting on the fat. So I am going to be addressing that that next week with the GP.



I am sorry, that was a typo indeed, I meant to say approx 100g protein, my lowest intake of protein is about 60-70g. I will correct it in the original post.




Wow 100g of fat a day is very high, if I did that, that would be the highest intake of fat I would have consumed in my entire life. Do I not need a calorie deficit, a few bodybuilding resources I have consulted have said I need 500 cals below my maintenance cals of 2300 cals or 1800 cals to lose weight. Also, if I was eating 100g of fat a day, then the problem I mentioned previously that the body will just use up those 100g of fat for energy rather than the average 50,000 cals worth of body fat. As fat is the most energy dense nutrient, wouldn't 100g of fat be sufficient for the body's energy needs, hence it would not have to resort to using the body fat?

Yeah, sorry I am a total newbie to low carbing. I have cut out wheat completely out of my diet, because I cannot hit 20g net carbs a day with anything wheat. I am considering almond and coconut flour. Reaching 20g carbs a a day is very difficult. I have cut out fruit(except strawberries and raspberries) all bread, all cereal and all beans.

I intend to be on this diet for 2-4 weeks, so-called induction phase 1 and then increase my carbs to 50g in phase 2.

I just did some measuring. The diet appears to be working(low cal, medium fat, high protein) I lost 1.5b this week and now am weighing in at 159lb and more importantly I lost 1.5", waistline is now 34.5". Flab in stomach area seems to have gone down a bit.

Hopefully, I won't have to go down all the way to 130, and 140 or 150lb might be enough for me to start the clean bulk and at this point I will probably resume HRT.

In case you are curious about meals. This was the breakfast I had:

Pancakes(100g fat free cottage cheese, 3 egg whites + 1 whole egg, tsp baking powder + 1 scoop soy protein powder --- filling drizzle of agave syrup, 4 raspberries, 1 blackberry, 1 strawberry, 1/2 tsp peanut butter, low fat cream)

+64 cals, 4.7g carbs, 10.1g protein
+116 cals, 16.6g protein, 4g fat
+ 43 cals, 9g protein
+ 2 cals, 1g carb
+ approx 10 cals, 3-4g carbs, 1g protein, 2g fat filling

Total: 235 cals, 5.7g carb, 36.7g protein, 8g fat

PJ coconut milk Smoothie(1 scoop protein)

+ 20 cals, 2.7g carbs
+12 cals, 0.5g carbs
+ 90 cals, 2.13g carbs, 4.01g protein, 8g fat, 1g fibre
+ 78 cals, 9g protein

Total: 190 cals, 5.3g carbs, 13g protein, 8g fat 1g fibre

BREAKFAST TOTAL: 425 cals, 14g carbs, 49.7g protein, 16g fat, 1g fibre

14g carbs is a bit high for a single meal, this gives me 6-10g of carbs to play with the entire day for 20-24g net carbs.

On that breakfast, you could easily get in more fat invisibily by using whole eggs and full fat cream.

Mark Sisson has an article on increasing testosterone naturally. He has collected research about:

Weight lifting increases testosterone. (apart from muscle building )

Sat and mono fats increase testosterone a little. Polunsaturated, not so much.

Low calorie reduces testosterone.
You can still have your needed deficit.
If your maintenance calories are 2300, even bodybuilding sources say don't do a deficit of more than 25% unless you're way fat.
So, it would be better for your T to shoot for 1700 cals.
If you keep protein at 120, and carbs at 20, that leaves 125 g of fat.


I get you about ectos not having a lot of muscle mass.
I had a boyfriend who was ecto and he was 180 at 6'2, not much muscle mass at all, no flab. Had heavy bones though it seemed.

I know a hundred grams of fat sounds like a lot if you're not used to it. But at maintenance, I've gone above 200 grams a day for long periods. You have to get your calories from somewhere, and if it's keto, that's fat.







If that's 1300 calories, another 60 grams of fat only increases calories by 540, that's 1840 calories, still a pretty low intake for a fellow your size.


You said something earlier about turning fat into lean muscle. Of course this can't be literally done, but I hate it when people point this out as if everybody didn't know that.

But it certainly is possible to lose fat and at the same time gain lean mass. Some bodybuilding mythology suggests that you must either target gaining lean mass, or losing body fat. And of course that you have to overeat to do the one, and undereat to do the other. This is just plain untrue. Teenage boys are a good example, they gain lean mass while becoming less fat. Also, people who have been detrained--somebody who's lost a fair amount of muscle due to a year of skipping the gym will put on muscle at an accelerated rate. If you're testosterone deficient, and you go get this corrected through supplementation, you'll likely fall within this general class of people.

You want to convert fat into muscles, not necessarily reduce weight. That is done as others said, by exercising. In fact, your proposal will get you dangerously low in weight.

Most of us who started exercising while dieting have experienced a loss in inches without weight loss because muscle is denser than fat - you can surely remove your belly fat without going on a weight loss diet

Most weight exercises will build leg and arm and shoulder muscles. if you have no experience, talk to a coach, as one can do it the right way - which always also involves the abdominal muscles - or the wrong way, which does not. In my fitness center, and I guess that's true for most, new members get one free evaluation - talk to the trainer about what you need.

Thank you Seejay for the advice on increasing T levels naturally. I have looked at a few options for supplementation Zinc, Ashwagandha, Tribulus Terrestis, Tongkat ali. I will start(or rather restart) weight lighting soon. I cannot at the moment commit to a gym routine.

Teaser, yeah 100g is a lot of fat, but my fat number is climbing up and today it hit the highest in months. Here is my daily nutrition and diet(excluding breakfast)

Lunch

30g low fat chedder cheese, 2 asparagus, 1 zucchini, cabbage, 1/4 avacado, 5 mushrooms, 20g chia seeds

+87 cals, 9.76g protein, 5.05g fat
+7 cals, 0.6g carbs
+33 cals, 4.9 carbs, 2g fibre
+80 cals, 0.8 carbs, 1g protein, 7g fat, 3.4g fibre
+ 25 cals, 2.6g carbs, 3.6g protein, 1.2g fibre
+97, 1g carbs, 3g protein, 5g fat, 7g fibre

LUNCH TOTAL = 304 cals, 8.9g carbs, 17.3g protein, 17g fat, 13.8g fibre


Snack


Almond milk smoothie

+13 cals, 1.1g fat
+12 cals, 0.5g carbs
+87 cals, 18g protein
+69 cals, 2.55g protein, 6g fat, 1.4g fibre

TOTAL: 181 cals, 0.5g carb, 20.55g protein, 7g fat, 1.4g fibre

3 olives

TOTAL: 21 cals, 1.82g fat
Dinner

Cod fish, 80g Edamame beans, Cauliflower 52g, 20g ricotta cheese, 10g cheddar and 10g parmesan, 1tsp cream

+ 112 cals, 25.1g protein, 1.3g fat
+ 98 cals, 4g carbs, 9g protein, 4g fat, 4g fibres
+13 cals, 2.8g carb, 1.g protein
+27.3 cal, 1.8g protein, 2g fat
+ 58 cals, 6.5g protein, 3.3g fat
+39.9, 3.3g protein, 2.8g fat

TOTAL: 348.2 cals, 6.8g carbs, 46.7g protein, 13,4g fat, 4g fibre


Lemon Posse desert(80g half fat cream, 1/2 lemon)

+100 cals, 2.g carbs, 2g protein, 9g fat
+ 6 cals, 2g carbs

TOTAL: 106 cals, 4g carbs, 2g protein, 9g fat

DINNER TOTAL: 454 cals, 10.8g carbs, 48.7g protein, 22.4g fat, 4g fibre

DAILY TOTAL: 1383 cals, 34.2g carbs, 136g protein, 64.2g fat, 20g fibre

As you can see my cal intake is still pretty low, but it is approx 100 cals higher at 1400 cals. I went over my target carbs by 14g today, I am going to try bring it down to 20g tomorrow. I think I need to add another snack meal between breakfast and lunch to bring it closer to 1700 cals(5 meals total per day) and increase the quantity of food. Protein is also too high, I am going to cut back on the protein powder and bring it down about 100g per day.

That lemon/cream dessert looks interesting, I had to look it up.

I know a hundred grams of fat sounds like a lot, if you're not used to it. But it's probably not that far off from what most people eating the standard American diet eat. And it's really not a bad way to get your calories, as long as you're not also taking in loads of refined carbohydrates, pizza, french fries etc.