Just a quick message to "theBear" to say thank you for absolutely fascinating information.You have really done your homework.Keep me informed,I'd like to learn more from you.

Actually milk is ~ 4.5%. Cream is ~ 3%

Yikes. That's my kid to a "T". He's 17 months old. And I wouldn't even take bets that he would ever go for the sugar either. He has eaten about three cookies in his life.

When he's hungry he says: "meat", "ham", "cheese".....no kidding. He'll eat toast, a few crackers, or a spaghetti strand once in a while, for sport I think. (McDonald's fries, he might eat every day though, if offered!) Veggies are sneaked in with some creativity. Cereal was a no-go from day one and every day after.

When he goes to daycare, I pack him a big meaty lunch. If the menu there was full of regular foods like pancakes, sandwiches, spaghetti...the kid would starve. I still give him formula in his sippy cups to try to cover any missing nutrients.

Interesting.

I am eternally grateful to Dr. Atkins for his work in popularizing low carb in such a way that it reached many people who might not have otherwise tried it. While I also don't agree with everything he said about a minimum requirement for vegetables (and exercise for that matter) I recognize that the inclusion of these things in his diet may have helped more people - like myself - accept the low-carb WOE long enough to discover for themselves deeper nutritional wisdom. We see this in many people on this board - many of us who are lifetime ketogenic dieters, who, if we include vegetables in our diet it is out of preference than necessity, who have eliminated processed foods and even made raw meat and other animal products a staple in our diets.

I also approve of the basic respect for his readers that came out in Atkins' writing style - a bit over-enthusiastic at times but never condescending. Yes, his message could be perceived to be watered down if one is looking to find fault with it. But careful reading of his work and application of the principles he taught reveals the deeper wisdom.

Wyv

Yes, indeed. Here's some links that explain the process step by step:
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/glycol.html

http://www.chemistryquestion.com/En...fat_energy.html

Goat rocks! I'm not one for very gamey meats, but Goat is sweeter than beef IMO. My only problem is how to properly prepare it because otherwise it's very chewy. Trust me people, go out and find a slab of goat now...you won't regret it.

ok Rob, I'll go and get me some!
Again, thank you Bear for all the info. I have been reading on the Artic Expedition and the Eskimo diet, and I am working my way thru the other articles you suggested. Gosh, why did I not find all this information years ago!
In 1993, I was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and in 1998, I was suffering from mercury poisoning. I was unable to work and spent years bed-ridden. I have wasted so many years searching for a cure. I spent a fortune on supplements trying desperately to recover my health. I just read, in one of the articles you suggested, that 'Eating protein and fat while avoiding carbohydrates induces the production of the hormone glucagon which is the best way to prevent chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. Eating carbohydrates like sugar, honey, grains, starches and fruit causes these problems.' Had I read that ten years ago, I would not have lost my job and my life as I knew it. I know it serves no purpose to go there, but I am so mad right now at all these doctors who told me that there was nothing I could do to help myself, when the answer was as simple as nutrition!

I HAVE TO VENT...

My 17 yr old son is on Atkins with my husband and I. My son was put in a psychiatric hospital for almost a month in September because of a major manic episode, which included hallucinations, delusions, and going after my hubby with a knife. While there he was diagnosed with Schizo-Affective Disorder (a combo of Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder). Anyways, since that time he has been on anti-psychotic meds and mood stablizers. BOTH the meds he is on are appetite stimulants and cause his brain to think he is constantly hungry!!! He was very UNDER weight when all this started. In september he weighed only 125 lbs. (he is 5' 10"). He gained 60 lbs over the past 6 mos due to these meds because he eats like 24 hours a day! So he got up to 185 lbs and is now OVER weight! Anyways, his psychiatrist suggested putting him on a low carb diet. He lost 5 lbs his first week on Atkins and 3 lbs his second week. (Ok, now that I've caught you up to speed...on to my RANT)
I am divorced from his father (remarried now to my present hubby). Anyways....his father who has barely been much of a father all these years and sees the kid once every few months has SOME NERVE!! Today my son went to work with his dad. I called over there just now to see when he was coming home and to make sure that his dad had low carb food available to feed him for dinner! His Dad tells me "I think this diet you have him on is horrible, its just not HEALTHY!!" I told him "Well his Psychiatrist is the one who suggested him eating low carb!" And he says "Well ya, i know, but i just think he was eating a bunch of junk food and thats why he gained so much weight, and he just needs to eat healthy and not be on a DIET!" And i said..."Are you aware that he gained 60 lbs in 6 months? Do you think THAT is HEALTHY??" He says "No, its not, but look at the crap he was eating, he just needs to eat HEALTHY" ARGHHHH! I said "He eats 24 hours a day! he is on TWO medications that make him think he is starving! He's still eating JUST AS MUCH food only hes eating low carb foods so instead of continuing to GAIN he has LOST 8 lbs in the past 2 weeks...There is NO other way of eating that he could eat as much as he eats and still lose weight!!!!" He could tell i was getting annoyed so finally he goes "Ya, well I'm just telling you that i think he is eating crap!!" I just wanted to jump through the phone and strangle him, because he knows NOTHING whatsoever about low carb eating!! He hasnt paid a penny of child support in numerous years! MY HUSBAND pays all the freaking hospital bills and for all the medications!! And HE has the nerve to try and tell me how my son should eat and act like i am a moron for feeding him what i am feeding him!! I didn't have the time or the patience to give him the entire low down on low carb eating, but i am thinking of getting some articles together and mailing them to him....lol...does anybody have good low carb articles ..give me LINKS...PLEEEEASE!!!!!!!!!!
sorry, i just Had to vent..i am so angry right now! sighhhh

Hey Bear, what's your average protein consumption (grams) per day?

JandLsMom, here's a link to get you started on those articles.

{{{{JandLsMom}}}}

I'm glad someone responded. I've been trying to send a private message but the system won't let me...ok, I'm a newbie.

???

Actually, the purpose of the Krebs (or tricarboxylic acid) cycle is to complete the biochemical breakdown of food to produce energy-rich molecules, which can, of course, be used for fuel. Byproducts of course being carbon dioxide and water. It is a long process, but the final part of the process takes place within the mitochondria, where ATP is produces (energy-rich molecules). Actually to call ATP an "energy-rich molecule" is a bit overstating things. They actually have a very tiny energy potential. But, we produce so many of them it is truly mind boggling, and their combined "chemical power" is what makes it possible for muscle contractions to take place... which is another long process, that is quite fascinating actually... but we won't cross that Z-line at this point!

Thanks for the link Lisa and thanks for the hug Rob!! I feel slightly better now that time has passed!
(sorry for posting my rant in your thread Bear, i know it is WAY off topic, but this is the thread i have spent the most time in and i feel like i am getting to know people here a little and i just really needed to vent...others can pm me if they want to say anything or give me links..or just click on my journal and post there!! thanks! i dont want to take over Bears thread)

Karen Marie,

I am sorry you are going through all this. Would it be possible to have the psychiatrist speak with your ex? Perhaps he could explain things to him with less emotion (as a third party), and possibly convince him to give this a try. Good luck and keep us informed if you need support.

theBear, do you use coconut milk at all? I remember you said you use coconut oil. I decided to use some coconut milk to make curry chicken. Coconut cream/milk tastes better than heavy cream in a curry, imo.

Bought some coconut oil today at Whole Foods. Saw the mac nut oil too but boy that thing is expensive!

I did some calculations based on the information in the USDA database and whole milk is ~30% carbs by calories and heavy cream is ~3%. Based on weight, milk is 4.5% carbs and cream 2.8%.

I read this whole thread on Sunday night- all 21 pages of it. I took a couple of days off and come back to find another 10 pages!!

this is great! really interesting.

I am a super taster, although I do not know when that happened. I used to love vegetables and was the only kid in my family to eat the lima beans (little nuggets of starch) out of the mixed vegetables my mother always served. I was raised on homemade white bread and potatoes and my mom always overcooked all meat- or that is the way I remember it. I have always enjoyed fruit and bread products over meat and vegetables.

I thought Atkins would be hard to do because I would miss fruit the most, and was not much of an egg eater. I did have to really work at what I was eating, and watching my carb numbers.

I started eating meat and eggs -in February -by following the instructions in the meat and egg fast thread in the triple digits club thread, and had no cravings after 2 days (even the first day was not hard), and I lost 9 lbs in 2 weeks. And when I input to Fitday, I am under 10 carbs without even trying (its the coffee with cream that puts me over 5 carbs daily). Then I stopped losing - no loss for 10 days and so I gave myself permission to eat some icecream at dairy queen (after a nice grilled chicken salad), and it took 10 days to get back into meat and egg fast mode. Plus I gained back 3 lbs!

Giving up vegetables has been no loss for me. I have thrown out countless bags of salad since getting back into low carbing in January. I am so happy to find other people who don't want to eat vegetables. I can hear our vegetarian dietician at work spouting her dogma, but I don't care. I love this way of eating!!! I cannot give up my once in a while treat of frozen raspberries, heavy cream and splenda, but I don't eat the raspberries because I have to, only because I want to.

Thank you to everyone who is contributing to this thread!!

Yes well everything else is calculated by weight so that is how I think of it.

I must admit I am always amused by those who measure their food in ounces and their carbs in grams ... talk about making life difficult!! When you measure food in grams all you need to look at is the nutrition details for 100g and you have the percentages of all the nutrients already calculated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theBear Runners who are fully keto-adapted burn fat from the first step they take and do not 'shift gears'. I assume many here know about Greg Ellis' work on low carbs and exercise. He sent me many of the metabolic papers I have. He is about as dedicated to this path as I am, but is not nearly as strict. Keto-adaptation on zero carbs should be complete in 3-4 weeks. The truth about exercise is that muscles NEVER use carbs as fuel, only fat, so the process of 'burning carbs is only the process of converting them into fat, which puts a severe load on the body during exercise- eliminate the carbs and endurance skyrockets. (At the risk of offending a few, I must say that Atkins -conventional- contention about burning carbs for fuel is false, like many of his ideas. The rats in the paper I mentioned were tested by having them swim. They were trained and conditioned for a long time during he study, of course. Those on a standard diet never were able to swim much longer than a few hours, but the ones on the true zero carb high fat diet were still swimming after eight hours and the experimenter had to end the session- no telling how long they might have gone on. Thus marathoners and long distance bike riders are severely limiting themselves by carb loading.

So, Bear, are you saying that once someone is fully keto-adapted their muscle cells will use only fat for fuel, and leave the muscle glycogen stores alone? And, what if they are NOT keto-adapted?… in this case, will they use their muscle glycogen stores for fuel? OR… are you saying that muscle cells will NEVER use their glycogen stores, in any individual, regardless of whether they eat high carb or low carb… and that glycogen loading (carb loading) is simply a myth… because these glycogen stores in the muscle and the liver are ONLY for blood glucose level maintenance, and NEVER for muscle fuel (in any individual). Just want to make sure I understand what you are saying.

I don't dispute what you are saying, I just want to understand it. Because, you have to admit, this turns so much information that people have normally heard about exercise and diet completely upside down. I mean, I found so many references to the opposite out on the net, and nothing supporting what you say. Unless I am just not understanding what you are saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theBear Gluconeogenesis cannot and will not even take place so long as there is enough fat intake, period.

And... if one takes in no dietary carbs, and there is some minor use of glucose in the blood by the CNS, then how is this replaced? Of course, the better question is how are glycogen stores replaced, after they have contributed to keeping the blood glucose level at their normal fasting level? On a truly zero carb diet, where would the needed glucose come from, if not from gluconeogenesis? Not that gluconeogenesis is a bad thing. Life Without Bread points out that glucose can be produced in this fashion on an as-needed basis. When I first read this years ago, I thought "yes... and keep insulin levels low in the process!". But, your statement of gluconeogenesis never taking place puzzles me.

Something to think about (Bear, no offense, I'm really immersed in your ideas, WOL, and experiences!!!)

I 'believe' based on second hand information gleaned from numerous articles over the years (I'm not very bright, but thats okay) and some practical life experience THAT:

Our bodies ALWAYS have glycogen available where its needed. Our bodies make it and it is USED. Here's a practical experiment to prove it: 1) Go carb-free for 4 weeks. 2) Perform some anaerobic exercise like lifting weights. 3) Afterwards, even the next day, do you have very sore, 'stiff' muscles?? If so, your muscles metabolized glucose (made from your body) and the by-product was latic acid. 4) Perform steps 1 - 3 again. My conclusion: even after you've depleted the supplies in your muscles and liver, your body manufactures replacement glycogen and redistributes where necessary. *Of course, any glycogen produced in this manner IS NOT converted to FAT.

Just my thoughts....

Great discussion! This thread is chugging along.

Just thought I'd throw a reminder into the mix: When burning body fat, you are actually burning triglycerides. This is the form of "sugar" your body uses for storage in fat cells for energy. I find it interesting that the medical community (I am a nurse) and government literature is so concerned that we lower triglyceride levels, when that is the bodies natural form of fuel storage. I believe (my theory) that the reason some people show elevated triglyceride levels when they are eating very LC is because they are emptying their fat cells (aka losing fat) and it is showing on the blood tests. That is just my theory. I have no links or research citations to prove it.

I've started to reduce my carbs to around zero (maybe 5, from cheese, eggs, and little cream in my coffee), and over the next few months, will test it with some high intensity weight sessions.

I'll see if I get the next couple of days soreness even when I lift to muscle failure.

I'm intending to do the same, as well as undertaking a training regime to powerwalk a half marathon for charity in May (Playtex MoonWalk).

Frederick, are you going to have a specific plan for your meals around your workouts? or just eat as and when?

Frederick and Demi, you can do this. I was eating 5 carbs a day while I trained to climb Mt. Fuji. I had great energy and saw great changes in my body while doing 2000+ stairs each morning before work on my morning 2 hour walks. Keep us informed on how it goes.

I really need to get back to that now that I'm back on m/e...

Hi Demi,

I do have a plan conceptualized, but nothing specifically written out as of yet. I have in mind something along these lines. I read that eating protein before a weight training session is conducive to both the workout and muscle growth afterwards.

For example, I'll most likely do something like this, eat a steak for lunch, then do my weights in the evening when I get off from work. After the workout, I'll have a dinner comprised of assorted fatty meats, cheese, and some fish.

In the past, I use to use cottage cheese for the pre and post weight workout meals. However, after reading Bear's posts, I'm willing to try as he suggests and use a steak as my pre-workout meal.

I'm looking forward to trying this and see how my body responds.

Oh, and by the way, for my cardio, I just stay with the empty stomach morning run eventhough it probably isn't necessary being on a "zero" carb eating regimen.

Does this make sense? LOL

How about you? I'm certainly open to suggestions and recommendations.

PS: By the way, I always have 2 eggs with every meal. I've always chose eggs as my side of "veggies". To me, it's as close to a plant-food as I'm every willingly going to eat.

I believe you.

The period when I left home for college (my mother forced me to eat all sorts of assorted veggies until I was 17) and before Atkins, I had NEVER eaten vegetables or fruits. I was fine until I started to gain weight once I hit 30. This was most likely from eating too much and too little physical activity.

When I started Atkins, I ate veggies for the first time since I was a teenager. I hated it. But, I ate it. Albeit, only a single serving per day which was absolute torture on my palates. It ruined every single meal.

You know, during the time when I wasn't eating veggies or fruits, I never had any health issues, aside from gaining some weight in the latter years. I never had constipation. I never had heartburn. I never had any ailments, aside from eating too many carbs. I felt perfectly fine.

For me, I have no doubt I'd feel the same if I were to cut out veggies. My only concern was being swayed by everyone and every research report that eating veggies were "necessary" for health, and that certain nutrients are available *only* in veggies. If this isn't true, which it appears that it isn't, it'll be a long day on Pluto before I eat another veggie.

My advantage is that for whatever reason, I not only like eating all sorts of animals, but I enjoy eating every part of them, except for the hoof, hair, and teeth, I guess.

And seriously, if carbs are bad for us, and if we were going to eat it anyway and pay the price healtwise, who'd rather eat a plate of spinach instead of a chocolate cake?

If I *must* eat some carbs, I mind as well get some bang for my buck.

Lactic acid is quickly removed (used) by the body. Within an hour, usually, the excess is gone. The muscle soreness that occurs later is due to torn muscle fibers.