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  #916   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 16:01
sailsouth sailsouth is offline
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Plan: General Controlled Carb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvest
This is well worth a read, IMHO and offers interesting links to wade through.

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2


Yes, you will note that Phinney determined what percentage of energy was coming from fat (both before and after adaptation) by taking "
measures (of) before and after exercise of muscle glycogen and blood glucose oxidation"

... but don't tell the Bear!
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  #917   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 16:13
sailsouth sailsouth is offline
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Posts: 78
 
Plan: General Controlled Carb
Stats: 225/180/180 Male 185 centimetres
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOOPS
I thought only fish/seafood contains the long-chain EPA and DHA that we need (and eggs some DHA). Some people don't make this stuff that easily from ALA (like me) so I supplement and eat fish.

It seems that grain-fed beef IS much higher in omega 6 than omega 3 - nutritiondata.com has a breakdown of all the fatty acids found in different meats and as far as I can see, just about all beef, chicken, pork etc has much more omega 6 than omega 3. I'm assuming all their sources are bog-standard grain fed.


Yes, of course it makes a huge difference what the animals are fed as this is the source of omega3 and omega6. For example check out bison in nutrition data. You can also see how easily manipulated this is by examining the omega3 content of eggs from true free range chickens (not grain fed) or those that have been given fish meal and/or flax as part of their diet.
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  #918   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 17:57
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
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'Animals can't make omega-3'? I guess no one told the salmon or Australian silver perch and jade perch (six times the O-3 of salmon) this, or the many land animals who have it in significant amounts in their fat- but do not eat any vegetation. Another vegetarian myth, my friends, utter nonsense. Incidentally, some stone age Inuit ate no fish, water mammals or vegetation at all, only land animals- and yet had all the essentials- how could this be?

Chemical salt should always be avoided, it interferes with fat metabolism when the body carries an excess (salty sweat and urine). Most cheese has some salt, some have very little- read the label. If you are getting too much, your sweat will taste salty. It takes about a week for the body to stop spilling salt in the urine and sweat. Lightheadedness may indicate insufficient fat intake.

Stef gave a rule of thumb for red meat- the fat should equal 1/6th the volume of the lean to equal 80%. Nicely marbled steaks and 'regular' hamburger mince have about 30% (of cal) fat in the lean- not counting the cover fat.

...A careful read of the article on

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

reveals that contrary to the assertion, 'glycogen depletion' was not taken as a measure, only oxygen consumption. Glycogen STORAGE was reduced during the first TWO WEEKS and thereafter remained stable- not surprising since much of the reason for holding glycogen in the muscle tissue is the need to quickly remove glucose from circulation- it is much faster to convert glucose into glycogen than for the adipose tissues to convert it to bodyfat. Glycogen is not used up or 'depleted' during exercise, it functions only as quick, emergency source of blood glucose- and that is all. After withdrawal of carbs from the diet, the massive glycogen storage in the liver is also vastly reduced, thus facilitating blood flow through the hepatic vein from the lower body and preventing the 'stitch in the side' so commonly experienced during carb-loaded athletics.

Note: 'VO2max' is maximum oygen intake and consumption, a measure of exercise efficiency, not glucose oxidation. The reference to glucose was for regular, pre-adptation diet, not keto-adapted.

It is important to read all the words in an article, not just those you want/expect to see.

Last edited by theBear : Sun, Mar-26-06 at 18:08. Reason: omissions
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  #919   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 18:02
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
'Animals can't make omega-3'? I guess no one told the salmon or Australian silver perch and jade perch (six times the O-3 of salmon) this, or the many land animals who have it in significant amounts in their fat- but do not eat any vegetation.


Food chain, Bear. If they do not consume any vegetation in their diets, they most certainly consume critters who do or critters that eat critters that do but more often than not, Omega 3 enters the food chain in the form of vegetation.
It's well-established that what an animal eats most certainly affects the ratio of omega 3 and omega 6 fats their body fat contains. If you know of research that shows otherwise, please post it.
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  #920   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 18:15
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
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Sorry Ms 'lisa the contrarian', why not address the question of the fish.

Likewise, if the unsat's we are referring to are truly 'essential' (needed for life) as is agreed, they must then be consumed in each animal, and not simply accumulated along the food chain from a bottom-of-the pile herbivore like DDT, mercury etc.
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  #921   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 18:27
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Sorry Ms 'lisa the contrarian', why not address the question of the fish.

Likewise, if the unsat's we are referring to are truly 'essential' (needed for life) as is agreed, they must then be consumed in each animal, and not simply accumulated along the food chain from a bottom-of-the pile herbivore like DDT, mercury etc.


I believe I did address the question of the fish. What do they eat and in turn what do their prey eat? Also, why can't Omega 3 be passed up the food chain? Please note where DDT and mercury are stored....body fat.
This is quite easy to show. Chickens who are fed flax meal have higher levels of omega 3 in their eggs. Humans who eat those eggs will likewise have higher levels of omega 3 in their bodies.
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  #922   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 18:49
theBear theBear is offline
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Why are we even having this conversation? It is a total waste of time and resources.

I know already you just HATE the truth, but the simple fact is that there are no deficiencies of any essential nutrients, or indeed of any non-essential ones, in an all-meat diet, no matter how long it is continued- period. All the so called 'science' in the known universe will not change that fact one iota, nor is there any imperative to 'prove' why it is so- (nor why it 'should not' be so).

Note, please: DDT and mercury are NOT used by an animal's body, the are toxins and therefore are accumulated, like pica- swallowed non-food items which may accumulate in the stomach. An essential oil is used otherwise it would not be 'essential', and therefore will be depleted in quantity while present in each animal in turn as it passes up the food chain.

The process of understanding how this sort of thing happens is called 'logic', an exercise you might find very useful to help reduce your need to post so much that is irrelevant .

Last edited by theBear : Sun, Mar-26-06 at 19:02. Reason: addendum
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  #923   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 18:56
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
OOOOOOOOOH YEAH!
Posts: 692
 
Plan: High Fat/IF
Stats: 215/170/160 Male 5 feet 10 inches
BF:27%/12%/8%
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Location: Montreal, Quebec
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If you will go to Ray Peat's site, he questions the 'essentiality' (necessity for life) of omega3 and 6 acids.

http://raypeat.com/articles/article...eneration.shtml
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  #924   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 19:06
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Why are we even having this conversation? It is a total waste of time and resources.

I know already you just HATE the truth, but the simple fact is that there are no deficiencies of any essential nutrients, or indeed of any non-essential ones, in an all-meat diet, no matter how long it is continued- period. All the so called 'science' in the known universe will not change that fact one iota, nor is there any imperative to 'prove' why it is so- (nor why it 'should not' be so).


I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that humans cannot synthesize omega 3's and must get them from the diet. The critters that we eat that contain omega 3's must either eat vegetation themselves or some other critter in the food chain that does. It doesn't change your main thesis at all Bear, but in this instance I"m afraid you are just plain wrong. Btw., one of the best sources of omega three's is brain tissue. Lightly fried brains with heaps of butter and a sprinkle of lemon zest. Yum!
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  #925   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 19:08
sailsouth sailsouth is offline
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Posts: 78
 
Plan: General Controlled Carb
Stats: 225/180/180 Male 185 centimetres
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBoneMitch
If you will go to Ray Peat's site, he questions the 'essentiality' (necessity for life) of omega3 and 6 acids.

http://raypeat.com/articles/article...eneration.shtml


Peat's nonsense is well covered my Mary Enig her;

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyou...ttyaciddef.html

... and Bear, do you think your aversion to having your many factual errors corrected is a symptom of not eating enough vegetation? Just asking!
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  #926   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 19:43
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailsouth

... and Bear, do you think your aversion to having your many factual errors corrected is a symptom of not eating enough vegetation? Just asking!


Um..'many factual errors'?. Well I've read every post in this fascinating thread and the Bear's take on Omega three's is the first 'factual error' I've noticed. There may even be people who think Peat is on the money. Anyway as I said in my previous post his slip up (IMHO) doesn't change the veracity of his main thesis at all. Sailsouth, you obviously don't agree with much of what Bear has to say. But there are enough people taking an interest in this thread not because we're fools, or particularly gullible, or misinformed. We have all just decided for entirely logical and sensible reasons that he is probably right that humans are opportunistic omnivores but optimal carnivores. And there's certainly more than enough people who have discovered the same health benefits over admittedly not quite so impressive time frames to bear ( ) this out.

Last edited by kneebrace : Sun, Mar-26-06 at 22:08.
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  #927   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 19:47
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
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I do not make 'many errors', I do however make statements which are contrary to some individual's strongly held mythic belief systems about diet.

This is very common in questions about what you should eat or not eat- a social condition which is very much like belief in a superstious religion such as those which claim someone could walk on water and 'rise again' from being truly dead. Unfortunately, while science can conclusively show that religious claims are bogus, it can be easily manipulated to support a lot of wrong ideas in diet.

Last edited by theBear : Sun, Mar-26-06 at 19:48. Reason: errors
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  #928   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 19:58
theBear theBear is offline
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Brain as a source for efa comment reminded me that I still have a tray of (6) frozen lamb's brains...Yum.
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  #929   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 20:20
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
I know already you just HATE the truth


I'd be interested in knowing what 'truth', exactly, you seem to think it is that I hate since I have never once said that humans can't live long lives eating meat only or will certainly develop some deficiency doing so. I do disagree with you on your contention that it is the only true way for humans to eat and that vegetables are poison. Millions of humans living long, healthy, productive lives eating a mixed diet testify against that notion; in fact, the longest-lived humans on earth eat an omnivorous diet.

Quote:
Why are we even having this conversation? It is a total waste of time and resources.


We are having this conversation, Bear, because if you are going to speak in absolutes and set yourself up as the resident expert, you owe it to those who are reading your posts and taking whatever you say as gospel truth without question to present them with accurate information or at the very least, post some links to where you got those ideas so that others can read them and make an informed decision for themselves. Yes...I know...you have those documents somewhere....
You're the resident expert on how Bear's diet works for Bear, not on how Bear's diet will work for anyone else.
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  #930   ^
Old Sun, Mar-26-06, 21:21
theBear theBear is offline
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Plan: zero-carb
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No, it is about an all-meat diet.

It matters not who follows it.

'Bear's diet' if you want to continue to call it that- even though I have made it manifestly clear it is a permanent nutritional lifestyle, NOT a diet, WILL work for everyone who follows it diligently.

There is nothing special or unique about my physiology in contrast to the rest of humanity.

I would welcome any and everyone else to contribute to this discussion who has a real, long term experience with the all meat diet, but I have not met any- so far.

I am sure they would tell us all exactly what I have been saying- Stef, even with his comparatively limited time on the diet, certainly did.

You do not have to put your hand on a hot stovetop more than once to learn what the inevitable results will be, nor do you have to have others do so to prove the validity of your experience, why does my example need to be 'seen as special'? Why is the factual situation regarding my personal experience so hard to accept?

'Where I GOT my ideas from?' Where indeed! Other than my induction onto the path from reading Stefansson's various writings, it all has come from my life, not from some pop article or 'research paper'. This of course lets all of YOUR knowledge out, since your ideas appear to only come from various exterior sources: Nothing originates with you.

The true situation is based not on defining the 'science' of how and why, but on whether or not an ordinary person such as myself would be as healthy as one on a mixed diet.

Referring to my stating the bald-faced obvious, as 'speaking gospel' (a disingenuous reference to the dogmatic, superstitious writings of mysterious long dead authors) is a bit much. I have been showing- by using positive language- that what I say has been tested over and over and over in my life. It fits in with some research other than the ones the objectors subscribe to, and has been found (by me) to be.... true.

The astounding truth, whether or not anyone wants to allow it, is that I am MUCH healthier and stronger than anyone I have ever met who was the same age as I at the time we met, and that includes thousands, none of whom came even close to having the kind of well-kept body I do.

I am using my real, life experiences and information I have found and collected over a great many years, more years than my critics seem to have even LIVED on this planet in fact (?...no respect for elders). My time and effort is being spent in an attempt to inform and assist others. I already understand that the chronic complainers who nit-pick every statement i make which stands in contradiction to their firmly held beliefs (NOT 'truths') are never going to follow nor enjoy this path to a healthy long life, so it really is of little value to any of us who do care to have all the 'static' around. (Once more, with feeling!)

I HAVE indeed posted some links, and they were very important ones, at that. I noticed no one commented after reading (you all DID read it, didn't you?) the one about insulin as the cause of atherosclerosis. This one journal article alone justifies adopting a zero-carb diet.

Now, please- can we get back to discussing important stuff?
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