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  #16   ^
Old Wed, Feb-10-16, 16:57
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,422
 
Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
Stats: 168/100/82 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 79%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
One thing I haven't mentioned is that I am on a Beta Blocker and a Diuretic for high blood pressure. I am thinking that soon the diuretic should be able to go away. I might just begin experimenting with it (i.e.,not taking it). I'm thinking that it might not be making any difference. After doing some reading on insulin being the main cause of fluid retention (and not salt), continuing the IF and LCHF should resolve that issue.

Marvin, I can add a quick update. I was prescribed diuretics Spironolactone (150mg/day) and Furosemide (80mg/day) to address fluid retention. I noticed once I started low carbing that I was getting leg cramps at night. There are a few reasons that cold be so I addressed them and still got the cramps so I started experimenting a bit with dosages and timing. I then started IF and CAN NOT take the regular dose on fasting days or my legs will turn into knots. It's brutal. I mentioned this to my doctor at last visit and she agrees (blood work done) and we've reduced the dosage by half. She is encouraging but would like to try the lower steady dosage as a apposed to me pretending I'm and doctor/physician wrapped into one. I'm not.

So I will follow doctors orders and try the reduced dosage and see how I get by for a while. After some time on this she's looking for an update and we can make another adjustment then or just ditch them all together. My swelling is negligible these days.

diuretics and this LC/IF stuff are kind of a tricky mix it seems.
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  #17   ^
Old Wed, Feb-10-16, 19:20
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
Boldly going...
Posts: 837
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/298.6/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 60%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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I'm on spironolactone, but only 50 mg. so no cramps for me.
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  #18   ^
Old Wed, Feb-10-16, 20:22
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Say NO to Diabetes!
Posts: 8,671
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/228/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 92%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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My trig to HDL ratio was 4 to 1 in 2013 - a year before starting this WOE. Going LC it dropped to 2 to 1 and has crept down slowly over the past 2 years. In December it was 0.8 to 1.

About the diuretics... My BP started getting better immediately after I started this WOE. 6 months in, my doctor told me to start breaking the pills and doing a half dose. At 1 year, she took me off of them altogether. The only down side to going off the medication was the 5 pounds I put on in water retention. I had to lose that 5 pounds all over again and it took a while. The plus side... On the meds I was getting up 2 or 3 times a night to use the facilities. It has taken a while to adjust, but I've slowly improved to the point where I now sleep through the night more often than not without having to get up. I'm never up more than once. Yes - it is very much worth having to relose the same 5 pounds. It is nice to be prescription free. I hope you guys can do the same.
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  #19   ^
Old Fri, Feb-12-16, 12:23
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,433
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Dr. Davis just posted a previous post on Trigs on his FB page.

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2015/...lyceride-value/ (many good links and better formatting in the article at his blog here)


Quote:
I’ve previously discussed how you can send your HDL cholesterol on a standard cholesterol/lipid panel through the roof, signaling great changes in health and longevity. Let’s now discuss another often neglected value from the same panel, triglycerides. In my HDL post, I related how, in my own personal experience, I raised my HDL from 27 mg/dl to 94 mg/dl, while reducing my triglycerides from 350 mg/dl to 47 mg/dl. Plenty more people have done likewise following the Wheat Belly lifestyle.

This single triglyceride value holds a ton of useful information. It is surprising that, given the conventional practice to focus only on total cholesterol (generally useless) or the calculated–not measured–LDL cholesterol value that is wildly inaccurate, the world of useful health information captured by the triglyceride value is typically ignored. So let’s talk about what you can learn from this value.

Among the keys to understanding triglycerides are several basic facts:

- Triglyceride blood levels go up from fat consumption (since fats are triglycerides by definition), but carbohydrates are converted by the liver (de novo lipogenesis) to triglycerides. Carbohydrates make a much larger contribution to fasting and after-meal triglycerides than fats in the majority of people.
- Triglycerides are stored in human fat cells, but are very active. Fat therefore serves as an active repository, constantly releasing triglycerides back into the bloodstream. This is part of the reason why overweight people have high triglyceride levels.
- Most triglycerides in the bloodstream are contained within particles called very low-density lipoproteins, or VLDL. Triglyceride-packed VLDL particles interact with other lipoprotein particles, especially LDL particles and HDL particles, contributing triglycerides to them. Triglyceride-enriched LDL and HDL particles go through changes that make them much smaller in size and change their behavior. Small LDL particles, in particular, are uncommonly persistent in the bloodstream (5-7 days, rather than the 24 hours of large LDL particles), are very adherent to artery tissue, and more inflammatory. Triglyceride-enriched HDL loses much of its protective capacity and is cleared from the bloodstream more quickly, resulting in a drop in total HDL cholesterol values.
- Triglycerides from carbs and body fat, in turn, block insulin, raising blood sugar, and cause artery constriction/hypertension. This is why type 2 diabetics typically also have high triglycerides and hypertension, as well as high blood sugars. - Triglycerides manufactured by the liver do not all leave as VLDL particles, as some stay in the liver (for unclear reasons), causing low-grade liver damage reflected in common liver tests, such as AST and ALT; this is called fatty liver.

If you cut the fat in your diet while increasing grains and carbohydrates, the net effect will be a rise in triglycerides, sometimes substantial, from increased de novo lipogenesis. The increase in carbohydrate intake also grows visceral fat that, in turn, releases more triglycerides, sending them even higher. HDL levels drop, LDL particle number increases, especially of the small LDL variety, and linger longer. Over time, blood sugar goes up, blood pressure goes up, fatty liver begins to show—a very, very familiar scenario.

At what blood triglyceride level do these effects begin to kick in? 60 mg/dl (though this can vary from individual to individual). At a triglyceride level of 150 mg/dl, for instance, the level generally felt to be safe quoted in national guidelines, there is typically a substantial drop in HDL and its protective function, oodles of small LDL particles, and insulin and blood pressure effects–150 mg/dl is not ideal. It is also clear from clinical studies that cardiovascular risk of heart attack begins to rise even with triglyceride levels in the 80-90 mg/dl range.

So how can you drop triglycerides substantially, even achieving values of 40 or 50 mg/dl, as is common around here. Easy:

- Eat no wheat or other grains
- Manage carbohydrates–I advocate consuming no more than 15 grams net carbs per meal
- Supplement omega-3 fatty acids, EPA and DHA, from fish oil only–never krill, not flaxseed or chia. The dose is 3600 mg EPA + DHA (total) per day, divided into two doses.
- Manage bowel flora–Feeding and cultivating bowel flora with prebiotic fibers/resistant starches drop triglycerides even further.

Do the above and visceral fat begins to shrink, also. In other words, follow the Wheat Belly lifestyle and triglycerides–as well as so many other health phenomena–all fall into place. I’ve used this formula many times in both face-to-face patients, as well, and watched triglycerides plummet. I virtually never had to use any drugs to achieve triglyceride values of 60 mg/dl or less.

And don’t forget that, in the midst of active weight loss and for several weeks afterwards, triglycerides can be higher than desirable, dropping after weight loss has subsided.



Also this newer article http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2015/...-triglycerides/ How NOT to have High Trigs.
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  #20   ^
Old Fri, Feb-12-16, 12:38
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Say NO to Diabetes!
Posts: 8,671
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/228/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 92%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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Today a lady in my office came to show me her cholesterol numbers from labs she had yesterday. Influenced by yours truly - she started a low carb diet a few months back. She has been sticking to it and making progress. When she presented me with her numbers from the current labs vs. the ones from a year ago she said she was alarmed that her cholesterol went up. She feared some trouble ahead when she meets with her doctor next week.

I took a look at her numbers. Total Cholesterol had risen quite a bit. But as I looked over the makeup of her cholesterol numbers, I was amazed at what I saw. Her trigs... way down. Her LDL/VLDL - down. Her HDL - way up. Her HDL to Triglyceride ratio went from around 2 down to 0.5. I told her that I would kill for numbers like that and that her TC went up because her HDL nearly doubled. That is good, not bad.

I told her she was going to find out next week how current her doctor is with the latest research about cholesterol. If her doctor is concerned about the increase in TC (which was a little over 200) and started talking statins, then she is old school and dead wrong. Every number that makes up her TC went in the right direction. So how could she be more at risk now than she was before? I hope her doctor is ecstatic for both the weight loss progress and improved cholesterol numbers.

To me, this was a prime example of the uselessness of the TC number.

Last edited by khrussva : Fri, Feb-12-16 at 12:50.
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, Feb-12-16, 12:54
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
Boldly going...
Posts: 837
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/298.6/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 60%
Location: Lincoln, NE
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Janet thank you for posting that, and Ken thank you for your sharing.

It looks like lowering Trig and Raising HDL is the same answer. I was glad to read that it's possible that if you're losing weight, your HDL will drop, and then bounce back up 1-2 years later. I will keep that in mind, but try the other things.

I was curious about the bowel flora, and resistant starch. Any body here do that? I've got the Bob's Red Mill potato starch upon the recommendation of Steve at Diabetes Warrior but I haven't found a really palatable way of consuming it; and really not sure of it's efficacy.

Anyone?
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Feb-12-16, 14:08
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,863
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I personally tried it and didn't find it helpful. You don't need to use resistant starch. You can also use stuff like glucomannan powder, which is entirely low carb.
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Feb-12-16, 14:10
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,422
 
Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
Stats: 168/100/82 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 79%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEMarvin
I was curious about the bowel flora, and resistant starch. Any body here do that? I've got the Bob's Red Mill potato starch upon the recommendation of Steve at Diabetes Warrior but I haven't found a really palatable way of consuming it; and really not sure of it's efficacy.

Marvin, I used potato starch in Kefir in the mornings when I tried some diet stuff a few years ago. A friend was doing paleo and was/is really fascinated by the gut bugs (I always what to say butt gubs). I stopped doing that as I didn't notice any effect, I was also not eating paleo. I doubt I do it again now as I'm not doing dairy. In theory, raw potato starch is not "digested" by the human but passes along to the bugs where they eat, multiply and become fruitful and, again theory, pass on along some mysterious benefit to us. I think there's something to it but also a lot of internet mumboJumbo too.

My last thought, EDIT, was that this might be good for coming off a long fast. I've had to wake my bugs up a bit after 2 - 5 days of fasting. Perhaps introducing some of this food for them (bugs) might be beneficial.

Last edited by thud123 : Fri, Feb-12-16 at 14:49.
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  #24   ^
Old Fri, Feb-12-16, 14:33
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,433
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Tried it, but my BG went up. And then I read a good argument against using just one refined starch...how do you know it is feeding the "good bugs"? What if it is instead "overfeeding" one particular bad bug? Or many bugs that will adversely impact you ?
That is a concentrated dose of one starch compared to eating some rice, beans or various fiberous vegetables, with multiple types of fibers and starches.
I figure it is better to feed a wide diversity of gut bugs with real foods, and Fermented Vegetables...Don't forget these! and let the bugs sort themselves out. Way too many unknows about what kinds are healthy for each individual to fiddle with a refined supplement just yet.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sat, Feb-13-16 at 03:36.
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  #25   ^
Old Fri, Feb-12-16, 14:51
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,422
 
Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
Stats: 168/100/82 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 79%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
...You can also use stuff like glucomannan powder, which is entirely low carb.

Ah, this is the stuff shirataki noodles is made of I think?! Great way to get some fiber for me.
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Feb-18-16, 14:52
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Say NO to Diabetes!
Posts: 8,671
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/228/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 92%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
Today a lady in my office came to show me her cholesterol numbers from labs she had yesterday. Influenced by yours truly - she started a low carb diet a few months back. She has been sticking to it and making progress. When she presented me with her numbers from the current labs vs. the ones from a year ago she said she was alarmed that her cholesterol went up. She feared some trouble ahead when she meets with her doctor next week.

I took a look at her numbers. Total Cholesterol had risen quite a bit. But as I looked over the makeup of her cholesterol numbers, I was amazed at what I saw. Her trigs... way down. Her LDL/VLDL - down. Her HDL - way up. Her HDL to Triglyceride ratio went from around 2 down to 0.5. I told her that I would kill for numbers like that and that her TC went up because her HDL nearly doubled. That is good, not bad.

I told her she was going to find out next week how current her doctor is with the latest research about cholesterol. If her doctor is concerned about the increase in TC (which was a little over 200) and started talking statins, then she is old school and dead wrong. Every number that makes up her TC went in the right direction. So how could she be more at risk now than she was before? I hope her doctor is ecstatic for both the weight loss progress and improved cholesterol numbers.

To me, this was a prime example of the uselessness of the TC number.

My co-worker had her visit with the doctor today. Her doctor appears to be up-to-speed with the latest advice. She told her patient that 'we don't really look at that Total Cholesterol number anymore.' She liked what she saw across the board... bp, weight loss, improved cholesterol, and 'normal' on all of the other standard tests in the lipid panel. Her doctor seems to be very supportive of the diet. The one hiccup in the visit was a question about how much red meat my co-worker was eating. She didn't really ask her to cut back based on her response, but the fact that she asked the question leads me to believe that the recent "WHO" talk about the dangers of red meat did reach the ears of her doctor.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Feb-18-16, 16:08
NEMarvin's Avatar
NEMarvin NEMarvin is offline
Boldly going...
Posts: 837
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 410/298.6/225 Male 74 inches
BF:40/35%/17%
Progress: 60%
Location: Lincoln, NE
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
My co-worker had her visit with the doctor today. Her doctor appears to be up-to-speed with the latest advice. She told her patient that 'we don't really look at that Total Cholesterol number anymore.' She liked what she saw across the board... bp, weight loss, improved cholesterol, and 'normal' on all of the other standard tests in the lipid panel. Her doctor seems to be very supportive of the diet. The one hiccup in the visit was a question about how much red meat my co-worker was eating. She didn't really ask her to cut back based on her response, but the fact that she asked the question leads me to believe that the recent "WHO" talk about the dangers of red meat did reach the ears of her doctor.


Thanks for the update Ken! This is good to hear! I was just advising someone on a FB group about how doctors default to Statins above 200 and how I would handle a physician who prescribed one to me.

The meat question bears watching.
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