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  #616   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 23:54
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
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Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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All I have to say, from trying this "only animal food" diet ("antivegan" diet, as I like to call it) lately, as well as in the past (during "induction" times - where I wanted to kick start body fat loss or try and get away from "sugar addiction"), is it is the only time that I have ever felt "normal". Meaning, not having a bunch of unexplained hunger pangs nagging me, not having roller coaster mood swings, not having roller coaster energy issues, not having ANY digestive issues, not having inflammation, (and the list goes on). I just feel "normal" and great while eating this way.

THE ABSOLUTE ONLY reasons I have (in the past) not continued this WOE was simply because of fear of not getting nutrients, and just stupid learned behavior. But, I can say one thing, it is a LOT easier to give up ALL the foods of civilization (HG/agriculture) and eat what humans ate for a LONG time, than it was to quit smoking. Now THAT was a total b*#%h! This, in comparison, is going to be MUCH easier. Especially now that I have looked at this thing in light of so much logical information, and, frankly, just plain common sense.

Thanks, Bear. I do appreciate you coming onto this forum and starting this thread. About diet, you are correct in what you say. I have had a "sneaking suspicion" for some time that this was truly the way to eat for a human. Thanks for your patients in clearing up so much in my mind. I feel that eating vegetation is NOT good for people. I feel it is a BIG myth in society. But, most people think that the way to good health is low-fat, and eating eleven servings of grains every day. So, it doesn't surprise me that people can be equally brainwashed to believe we need any vegetation in our diets. It's just more of the same myths.

My body knows the myths, and is thanking me as we speak for "getting a clue"! And, if anyone still thinks that we ate a bunch of vegetation during our recent evolution (before HG/Ag), think about the type of vegetation that existed during that time. Only if we were TRULY starving would we have resorted to eating that. And, if we continued eating that for very long, we would have easily died. This is just a FACT that cannot be disputed by anyone. I'm sorry, but when you go into a produce section at the market, you are not looking at real human food... you can walk down the snack food isle and see more of the same... non-human food. Talk about engineered food! This stuff NEVER existed until very recently. BUT! Go to the butcher counter... ah! There is where you will find TRUE human food! I'm totally convinced of this.

If I ever eat anything other than TRUE human food, it will ONLY be because I am simply falling back to learned (bad) habits. PERIOD. And, yes... this is JMHO... so don't ask me for any links or anything... cuz YOU might need 'em... but I DON'T! My body knows best.

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Mon, Mar-13-06 at 00:50.
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  #617   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 03:09
theBear theBear is offline
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Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
BF:
Progress:
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OK.

My lovely wife is nearly 17 years younger than I am.

At my age that is a significant difference. Over the years we have been together her diet has made a large accommodation, and is still slowly changing. She has gained bodyfat, true, but is still far slimmer than the average women her age. Perhaps the gain is due to her liking of pasta and rice. Nowadays she only very seldom indulges. She eats squash and a few other high carb veggies sometimes. She also likes pawpaws (papaya) and other fattening fruits. She always eats some sort of salad with her meals. She likes eggs and eats more cheese than I do. She makes wicked egg salad and chicken salad, but puts celery in both, which I have to pick out- (no carbs, but I think it tastes awful). She is like me in her love of exercise and that may help her health.

I am not in the least interested in the food she likes, so I don't pay any attention to it in the fridge, even after smoking a doobie.

I only seldom say anything any more about what she eats unless I think it extremely carby. Fortunately she has a very good HRT formula which is based on the human estradiol rather than that dangerous pregnant mare's piss-derived one used in that interrupted study. The many estrogens found in other animals like horses, are not found in humans and like any alien hormone either have the wrong actions or have other added actions you may not want. Carbs/insulin is very artery damaging, but the normal female estrogen level seems to give excellent protection, why I have no idea, but I do know that as we evolved women simply never lived long enough to reach menopause.

Other animals can breed as long as they live, and once we could too- but now we live far longer than our bodies have evolved to handle in many ways. Of course estrogen also maintains the sex drive and vaginal lubricity as well as bone density. Even males need enough estrogen (which can be made from testosterone) to build and maintain bone density. I do not know how she will fare in the years to come... I would be far more comfortable if she ate like I do, but I am a realist on diet. She admits my diet is very good and is perhaps the best, but is strongly accustomed to her ways. I am always quite surprised when anyone can manage on it for long enough to make it their own.

Food for humanity: Fewer people would mean room for more food-animals a balanced ocean, land in grasses and trees, water which is abundant and clean. Clean air.

Yes, the truth about diet will out if only you can manage to center yourself and quiet down all that socially induced 'noise'.

A little bit of dissembling:

We are the eaters of cows, and we must NOT eat their food. That is the way of Gaia, the Conscious Planet who has placed us at the very pinnacle of the food-chain-eco-pyramid which is very small at the top. If we had remained where we belonged, rather than stepping down a level or two, not only would we live well and enjoy good health, but there would only be as many of us as the world can support. There would be no crowded struggling cities filled with the desperately poor, no pollution and no destruction of the ecosystem. The planet cannot carry us at the present population level, it is rapidly failing. The worst, most disastrous move we have made, worse even than the wide spread havoc caused by our uptake of the fundamental superstitious religions, is the consumption of vegetation. It has allowed us to infest the planet like ten thousand fleas on a Chihuahua. At least that is how I view it. 5 million, or up to 10 million, maybe- but no more is a good human population level, NOT six thousand million.
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  #618   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 07:28
lynnp's Avatar
lynnp lynnp is offline
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Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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That last paragragh is very thought provoking Bear. Thank you. I have to say for me, I tend to prefer animals for company over humans 99% of the time. I find that animals are not intentionally cruel or hold many of the other unfavorable traits that modern humans seem to overflow with...just my opinion. Humans could learn a lot from the lives of animals.
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  #619   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 08:44
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,225
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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Bear -

chillies are very high in vitamin C.
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  #620   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 08:52
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,225
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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sorry - that was a bit of a random comment.
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  #621   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 09:38
Meg_S Meg_S is offline
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Posts: 2,276
 
Plan: lots of meat
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 5 10"
BF:goal: 17%
Progress: 41%
Location: Germany (Canadian abroad)
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this is just anecdotal. There has only been ONE time in my life where I felt.. and this sounds so cliche, I'm sorry ... free from my obsession with food, my cravings etc. and where I felt unbelivably and incredibly happy, and I could sleep, and felt smart... just GOOD. Anyway I was eating ONLY raw meat, raw milk, raw egg yolks.. raw coconut(only a little) and sometiems some raw tomatos or other veggies but the mainstay was raw meat and fat, with sometimes some cooked meat. Occasionally I'd eat bread in olive oil but that was rare. That was the best time in my life, and I stopped when I got pregnant because I was new to that way of eating and it scared the shit out of my husband and I wasn't "sure" of myself or things. At every other point in my life I was consumed mentally with food, I've always wondered what was wrong with me and I think I was just eating (am just eating) things that are unhealthy and unnecessary for my particular body and that is setting up cravings. Gotta cut this short, baby demanding some milk
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  #622   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 10:28
TwilightZ's Avatar
TwilightZ TwilightZ is offline
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Posts: 359
 
Plan: meat and meat by-products
Stats: 270/191/150 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 66%
Location: TwilightZone (Phila, PA)
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Bear,

I have read all of your posts from the beginning as well as the essays on your website, so I won't waste your time. I have some questions which you did not address.

1. If all carbohydrates are essentially "poison," and if insulin is very damaging to the tissues in the body, then why do you think the mechanism exists in the first place? Why would the pancreas produce something as damaging as insulin? Why doesn't the body simply pass carbs without attempting to digest them? My observations have been that when the body itself is responsible for an undesirable effect, it's the result of the body's attempt to correct a problem, e.g. laying down of plaque in arteries to repair damage. What problem does the body think is occurring in tissues, which the damaging properties of insulin are supposed to correct?

2. On one hand you recommend removing the amalgam from your teeth, and then you suggest injecting the mercury back into your body in the form of flu shots? Were you aware that many vaccines contain mercury as well as lots of other nasty substances? Incidentally I am a dentist--I have removed amalgams from patients and about 50% notice a change.

3. You state emphatically that no cancer of any kind is diet or nutritionally related. Is that simply your conclusion based on the fact that your diet has led to otherwise excellent health? Are you aware of the fact that in the presence of glucose, cells in the body de-differentiate into cancer cells? And that this has been demonstrated repeatedly? And that in people with cancer, when carbs are totally removed from the diet, their cancers have disappeared. It's doubtless that there are certainly other contributing factors, but to claim that diet has no bearing is to disregard fact.

You state that you have smoked and are clearly still smoking pot. It never entered your mind that that could have been a contributing factor in your throat cancer?

4. The argument that an infant or child's acceptance or rejection of food is a determinant of whether it is appropriate for human consumption seems flawed to me. Are you saying that the first time sweets are introduced, whether fruit or candy, an infant or child will reject them? That people have no natural desire or craving for sweet things?

If you claim to have no desire for sweet things, or that variety is not an issue, then why do you make ice cream?

5. You state that vigorous exercise is necessary for good health. Is that based on your own experience? Of course, no studies have ever been performed on zero-carb individuals. Naturally, after eating this way you had increased energy and were able to accomplish more than before. Wouldn't that indicate that the diet alone could supply one with the basic abilities to hunt?

As to physical activity, it seems to me that simply engaging in sports would simulate the activities of hunting. If, when pushed beyond certain limits, muscles begin to burn, why wouldn't the natural reaction be to stop, unless pre-conditioned to think that exercise is good?

I can't believe that prehistoric man would have engaged in deliberate exercise. If food was scarce and difficult to obtain why would he expend more energy than he had to?

I'm sure you believe that you and your wife have benefited from exercise. My question is basically: How do you know that in a zero-carb person lack of exercise is bad?

Last edited by TwilightZ : Mon, Mar-13-06 at 10:38.
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  #623   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 10:43
lynnp's Avatar
lynnp lynnp is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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Intersting questions being generated here. Can't wait to read the responses....
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  #624   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 12:10
diabowl diabowl is offline
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Posts: 13
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 252/250/180 Male 178 cm
BF:
Progress:
Default Some tentative answers

[QUOTE=TwilightZ]Bear,


1. If all carbohydrates are essentially "poison," and if insulin is very damaging to the tissues in the body, then why do you think the mechanism exists in the first place? Why would the pancreas produce something as damaging as insulin? Why doesn't the body simply pass carbs without attempting to digest them? My observations have been that when the body itself is responsible for an undesirable effect, it's the result of the body's attempt to correct a problem, e.g. laying down of plaque in arteries to repair damage. What problem does the body think is occurring in tissues, which the damaging properties of insulin are supposed to correct?
Quote:

I think simply what happens is that the body is over saturated with carbohydrates, especially the simple kind. The cells do not need more (peripheral resistance), there is too much fat in the body (in extreme obesity), so the system either breaks down or goes on strike..




3. Are you aware of the fact that in the presence of glucose, cells in the body de-differentiate into cancer cells? And that this has been demonstrated repeatedly? And that in people with cancer, when carbs are totally removed from the diet, their cancers have disappeared. It's doubtless that there are certainly other contributing factors, but to claim that diet has no bearing is to disregard fact.

I did not know abou the glucose. Hard to even imagine it. Is there such a thing as glucose-free environment in the body? However, I think that the functioing of the immune system is important to avoid some types of cancer. Body makes cells all the time to renew the trillion cells we have. It is not a completely error-free process. Poorly made cells (some can be cancerous) are hunted down and killed by the healthy immune system.

II'm sure you believe that you and your wife have benefited from exercise. My question is basically: How do you know that in a zero-carb person lack of exercise is bad?


I think that lack of exercise in any person is bad for their well-being.


diabowl
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  #625   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 12:22
PaleoDeano's Avatar
PaleoDeano PaleoDeano is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,582
 
Plan: antivegan,was subzerocarb
Stats: 200/187/175 Male 6' 0"
BF:27%/19%/12%
Progress: 52%
Location: Flyover Zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
We are the eaters of cows, and we must NOT eat their food. That is the way of Gaia, the Conscious Planet who has placed us at the very pinnacle of the food-chain-eco-pyramid which is very small at the top. If we had remained where we belonged, rather than stepping down a level or two, not only would we live well and enjoy good health, but there would only be as many of us as the world can support. There would be no crowded struggling cities filled with the desperately poor, no pollution and no destruction of the ecosystem. The planet cannot carry us at the present population level, it is rapidly failing. The worst, most disastrous move we have made, worse even than the wide spread havoc caused by our uptake of the fundamental superstitious religions, is the consumption of vegetation. It has allowed us to infest the planet like ten thousand fleas on a Chihuahua. At least that is how I view it. 5 million, or up to 10 million, maybe- but no more is a good human population level, NOT six thousand million.
My thoughts exactly.


The move away from a nomadic hunter life has often been called "the worst mistake in human history". And it has been devastating not only to humans, but to the planet. Sustainable animal husbandry adopted full scale, along with serious population control, is our species' only real solution for the future. Only with this type of ecosystem will we be able to survive, without the desperate reality that lay ahead for most of the human population.

Only the elite who "run the world" will benefit from any other arrangement. But, the elite have been built on the backs of those who built the pyramids... so the use of a food pyramid as a "guide for eating" seems to be so fitting, with the most recent agricultural adoptions (food for slaves) nearest to the bottom.

One of the reasons I try and obtain as much of my animal food as possible from local farmers and hunters is simply to try and move in a more positive direction in this regard. It may not be making much of a dent, but I feel that just moving in a more constructive direction is important. I just feel very queasy every time I enter a modern grocery store.

Last edited by PaleoDeano : Mon, Mar-13-06 at 20:52.
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  #626   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 14:19
LadyArya's Avatar
LadyArya LadyArya is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 640
 
Plan: No one plan
Stats: 208.5/180.5/150 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 48%
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
My lovely wife is nearly 17 years younger than I am.


Good for you! Man, my bf is only 6 years older than me and that makes him think he hit the jackpot. 17 years... impressive

I think you just won the support of every man who ever went through a midlife crisis and tried to pick up a 20 year old

No sarcasm intended. I really think it's fabulous.
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  #627   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 14:21
MissSherry's Avatar
MissSherry MissSherry is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,066
 
Plan: M&E Maintenance <5carbs
Stats: 170/109.5/115 Female 5'1"-5'2" w/ shoes
BF:31.1%/21.3%/19%
Progress: 110%
Location: By the beach in Florida
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LOL My DH is 14 years older then I am. His friends said the same thing
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  #628   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 14:29
LadyArya's Avatar
LadyArya LadyArya is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 640
 
Plan: No one plan
Stats: 208.5/180.5/150 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 48%
Location: Florida
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Oh and whoever was looking for tongue (that almost sounded erotic.... almost )

I happend to come across some at walmart the other day that was relatively cheap. I'm sure it's not the best place to buy meats, but it was there if anyone's interested. Almost bought it myself, but being that I've never eaten it before I have absolutely no idea how to prepare it. Figure I'll look into it before I make the purchase.... and, of course, figure out a way to make it not look like a tongue when it's on my plate

My ancestors were farmers in Poland. My grandparents are straight off the boat circa the 1920s. Because of that, the most "unusual" thing we ever ate was kielbasa. Eating organs is a whole new world for me, so I have a lot to learn still.
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  #629   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 14:42
lynnp's Avatar
lynnp lynnp is offline
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Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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LadyArya, the look of tongue has always been my issue with it. I have never wanted to eat anything that could taste me back.
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  #630   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 14:45
MissSherry's Avatar
MissSherry MissSherry is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,066
 
Plan: M&E Maintenance <5carbs
Stats: 170/109.5/115 Female 5'1"-5'2" w/ shoes
BF:31.1%/21.3%/19%
Progress: 110%
Location: By the beach in Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnp
LadyArya, the look of tongue has always been my issue with it. I have never wanted to eat anything that could taste me back.



ROFLOL
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