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  #586   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 01:21
theBear theBear is offline
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Posts: 311
 
Plan: zero-carb
Stats: 140/140/140 Male 5'6"
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I have collected many papers over a long period of time that support my contentions. However I live on a very large, only partially developed rural property, which is basically somewhat unorganised and still takes a disproportionate amount of my time to manage.

I have not handled those papers for over 15 years, and it is going to take a bit more time for me to ferret them out from wherever they have gotten to over the years. I am working on it- trust me, I want very much to put all this contention to bed.
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  #587   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 02:52
Rosebud's Avatar
Rosebud Rosebud is offline
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23,881
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 235/135/135 Female 5'4
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Humans have classic insectivorous dentition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I also did not say we had 'insectivore' teeth like bats etc.

Right. "Insectivorous" not "insectivore."

Rosebud
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  #588   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 04:54
sailsouth sailsouth is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 78
 
Plan: General Controlled Carb
Stats: 225/180/180 Male 185 centimetres
BF:
Progress: 100%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
Unfortunately the human mixed or omnivorous diet in 'recent' times- i.e., prior to today's dentistry- meant that virtually no-one had any teeth left in their head by the age of thirty. Many people, indeed most- died from abscessed teeth. Compare that to the animals whose diet is either herbivorous or omnivorous, who do not have access to dentistry- they live a full lifespan without serious problems from their dentition. Say what you like, you cannot change truth into falsehood nor fables into reality: If we eat no carbs, our teeth will outlast us- no matter how long we live.


At risk of being accused of being one of those who must "defend their strongly held myths against all comers even if it means using contradiction and illogic and untruth." - a state of mind you seem to remarkably and blissfully avoid - can I recommend the works of Weston Price who found (contrary to your belief system) upon extensive examination that remarkable dental health was a common feature of many hunter gatherer societies regardless of whether they ate an omnivorous diet (as the majority did) or a largely carnivorous one.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditi...ary_wisdom.html

Stefansson also noted this feature of those Inuit populations who did include significant quantities of vegetable matter in the diet (at least on a seasonal basis) - a feature which certainly wasn't limited to those that subsisted on meat and fish alone.

Speaking of Stefansson, he says at the end of his essay about his long term meat eating experiences "Adventures in Diet" ;

"So you could live on meat if you wanted to; but there is no driving reason why you should."

Since this is a paleo low carb forum, I'm sure you will find broad agreement that you can survive on meat alone - Stefansson proved it, your own experiences add weight to what he demonstrated. So that might explain why some here are interested to hear of any evidence that suggests abandoning a low carb omnivorous diet is either desirable or necessary.
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  #589   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 08:43
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,225
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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This issue of salt interests me, and perhaps is one of the reasons I probably wouldn't do that great giving up vegetables. I do like a little salt - not much, but a bit. Veggies are full of potassium which possibly counteracts the salt I have. Sea salt I think is quite good for you in small quantities as it contains many other trace minerals.

The other thing is cooking meat and also quality of the eggs round here. I'm not yet into eating raw meat, but am getting rarer and rarer so to speak. However I've found it near impossible to buy good eggs unless I travel into the valley, and I don't have a car so that's out.

So you could say I have a less than perfect diet, and, therefore, maybe, that pure meat/animal products might not meet my nutritional needs.

However I'll be very interested/supportive to see how everyone else here gets on trying out the pure carnivore diet and what exactly they eat.
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  #590   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 09:05
lynnp's Avatar
lynnp lynnp is offline
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Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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Wow, Loops I just noticed that you are in Chile! Beautiful country you live in!! You could do lots of seafood if you are in an ocean area and can't find great meat or eggs.
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  #591   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 09:08
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Posts: 1,512
 
Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailsouth
Speaking of Stefansson, he says at the end of his essay about his long term meat eating experiences "Adventures in Diet" ;

[b]"So you could live on meat if you wanted to; but there is no driving reason why you should."


The above quote is why I appreciate this post so very much.

In my view, the very “point” is that if one desires, he or she can live without veggies or any other plant foods of any kind—not that one must, but it is a viable option. Before this thread, I can embarrassingly admit that I once believed and was completely convinced of all the collective rhetoric that veggies contained certain unique nutrients necessary to essential health. I’m not referring to “optimal health” or the theorized proposed efficacy of its phytochemical characteristics reducing free radicals, but rather that plant foods had certain nutrients not found in meat.

I had believed that veggies were essential, just as I once believed eating low fat was essential.

I’ve never actually entered what I had eaten into a nutritional tracking site like Fitday. However, the past several days, inspired by this thread, I decided to enter my all-meat diet to see if I am indeed getting all of my necessary nutrients. My eating consisted of fish, steaks, chicken, pork, and along with some stomach, tripe, kidney, and livers—especially calf liver, which I like very much. Of course, I had assorted cheeses as well. (along with my regular 2-4 eggs per day)

According to fitday, I was over 100% in all recommended USDA nutrients. Vitamin A was over 400%, which I can only attribute to the assorted livers. Vitamin C was over 250%, which I contribute to the calf liver. I was shocked to see that every nutrient that I once assumed that I needed to derive from veggies, I already have in huge abundance from the meats and organs that I had already been eating. Furthermore, we all agree that vitamins from animal products especially the fat soluble ones such as Vitamin A are more readily absorbed than from plant-foods.

I feel that the point of this thread is not to dissuade people from eating veggies, nor anything else for that matter. I find the underlying aspiration of this thread to merely show that the belief of eating veggies to be necessary for acquiring all one’s nutrients to be completely without merit. This fallacy and scatalogical bovine has existed long enough. People who don’t like veggies should not eat it. Just as those who do like it should continue eating it.

I’ve never been prone to impress on people what they should or should not eat. Even while low-carbing, I never suggest to people around me to abandon eating 500 carbs per day. What I would sincerely thank the Bear for is bringing to light a fallacy that I had so long held to be true, almost on faith—that veggies are essential.

I don’t mind people suggesting that I should eat veggies. However, their reason should be, “eat veggies, because we think it tastes good adding variety to your meals” and not, “eat veggies because you need the special nutrients.”

After all of this, I think anyone who doesn't like veggies has absolutely no reason to eat it. Those who like it, should by all means eat it in abundance.

With kindest regards,

Frederick

Last edited by Frederick : Sun, Mar-12-06 at 09:34. Reason: forgot to add in eggs again...
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  #592   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 09:31
lynnp's Avatar
lynnp lynnp is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 4,072
 
Plan: My Version of M/E
Stats: 284/000/140 Female 65 inches
BF:54%/49.5%/25%
Progress: 197%
Location: Rhode Island
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Well put Frederick...it is all a matter or choice! I hope people remember that when attacking the posts of other peoples choices and preferences. (That would actually be true in our society as well). Intolerance of the opinions and choices of others (that aren't harmful to those not making the choices) are a pet peeve of mine. I just don't understand how someone can be so sure of their own life and choices and bash others for theirs. God complexes I guess. They seem to be an epidemic in Amercian culture and society. It is really too bad.

Last edited by lynnp : Sun, Mar-12-06 at 10:09.
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  #593   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 09:48
Paleoanth's Avatar
Paleoanth Paleoanth is offline
Slothy Superhero
Posts: 12,159
 
Plan: Vegetarian Atkins
Stats: 165/145/125 Female 60 inches
BF:29/25.2/24
Progress: 50%
Location: Tennessee/Iowa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I never said we had 'carnivore' teeth- if you define that as the dentition of cats and dogs. I also did not say we had 'insectivore' teeth like bats etc. I noted that the primate lineage was insectivorous in deep antiquity and our dentition was derivative of that origin. Our mouth shape and jaw motion is specialised for speech, not chewing or grinding food. Our teeth changed with the development of both speech and the use of knives. Our teeth have absolutely no relationship, in either structure or durability to the teeth of herbivores and fully evolved omnivores like the rodenta.

Sorry, I am not trying to show you as less than you are, but the tooth shape and description I found on your references did nothing to detract from my stand on this, thus the comment on comprehension- I think you selectively choose to observe only the aspects of dentition which serve your viewpoint of us as omnivores.

Unfortunately the human mixed or omnivorous diet in 'recent' times- i.e., prior to today's dentistry- meant that virtually no-one had any teeth left in their head by the age of thirty. Many people, indeed most- died from abscessed teeth. Compare that to the animals whose diet is either herbivorous or omnivorous, who do not have access to dentistry- they live a full lifespan without serious problems from their dentition. Say what you like, you cannot change truth into falsehood nor fables into reality: If we eat no carbs, our teeth will outlast us- no matter how long we live.




You stated that we had classically carnivorous teeth, which I read to mean like cats, dogs and polar bears. Classic carnivores. The primate lineage started approximately 60-65 million years ago if you count proto-primates, and while dentition are evolutionarily conservative, they have changed since then. However, some primates, like lemurs, do have more insectivorous dentition than apes do (and I do consider us apes). Our mouth shape and jaw motion are the way they are for several reasons, not just speech. To look at it that way is more reductionistic than I am comfortable with. Facial reduction which in turn affected jaw shape and basocranial shape was more due to the inclusion of higher amounts of meat in our diet which in turn allowed for brain expansion, which allowed for the evolution and development of Wernke’s and Brocca’s areas which allowed for speech.



I did not select just studies that supported my arguments. To do that would be scientifically unethical. Which I try really hard not to be. I chose studies that either had diagrams and pictures to help illustrate my points, from researchers that I know to be tops in that particular area of study or those that came from peer reviewed journals. Again, I am perfectly comfortable to be proven wrong. As a scientist, I feel that I should test and question what I “know”. Science is self correcting, which is one of the coolest things about it.



We started on our ominiverous diet (and I am defining that as a mix of significant amounts of meat with vegetable material) around 2 or 2.5 million years ago. I am not sure what point you are making about life spans, but most animals with the kind of dentition you are referring to don’t have long lifespans anyway. Of course their teeth last throughout their life when it is only 10-20 years at best. I do agree that the inclusion of grain based carbs due to the invention of agriculture actually increased the amount of caries and tooth loss. Mostly due to the bacteria that then infiltrated our mouths that feed on that kind of stuff. Actually, when we became agriculturalists, there were a WHOLE bunch of health problems that went along with that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I am not attacking anyone, just asking a couple of reasonable questions based on observed behaviour, both of which have been on my mind for a while now:

Just WHAT is meant by 'Vegetarian Atkins?', other than, of course, an oxymoron?

Does 'Depraved Superhero' mean that you feel you must attempt to show all others as having 'ordinary, non-hero' status... if you can?

Or is this just your way of exhibiting an odd sense of humour on a basically egalitarian and meat-oriented dietary thread?




It means that I follow mostly an Atkins plan, but I substitute meat alternatives instead of meat. No biggie. I am not a vegetarian for moral, health or animal rights reasons. I have a whole different set of reasons. If you want to know them you can PM me. I actually don’t care if people eat meat, it just isn’t for me right now. That may change in the future.



The Superhero thing is a joke. As in I have a twisted sense of humor. I hang out a lot in the Single Low Carbers thread and it came from there as a part of a long running joke. Since I am short with flat feet and wear contacts or glasses, I am pretty sure I am not a superhero in real life. Too bad. I certainly did not put that under my name because of this thread.



Quote:
Originally Posted by theBear
I have collected many papers over a long period of time that support my contentions. However I live on a very large, only partially developed rural property, which is basically somewhat unorganised and still takes a disproportionate amount of my time to manage.

I have not handled those papers for over 15 years, and it is going to take a bit more time for me to ferret them out from wherever they have gotten to over the years. I am working on it- trust me, I want very much to put all this contention to bed.


[font=&quot]I would love to see them. I am always interested in learning something new. I don't like contention, either. [/font]
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  #594   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 11:48
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
OOOOOOOOOH YEAH!
Posts: 692
 
Plan: High Fat/IF
Stats: 215/170/160 Male 5 feet 10 inches
BF:27%/12%/8%
Progress: 82%
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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Thank you PaleoAnth for you very civil and courteous responses.

Thank you the Bear for your long and thorough experience.

Thanks everybody for this fabulous thread.
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  #595   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 11:49
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,225
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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Hi lynnp -

yes we live by the sea - yes I eat quite a bit of seafood - although ironically buying fish is expensive compared to meat! Actually the meat here is all grass-fed, and you can choose to buy meat from Argentina or Brazil as well, which is all grass-fed too I think.

Shrimp are very expensive, as are clams etc but the cheapest are mussels - unfortunately they are quite carby, but I still eat them from time to time (huge amount of manganese and B12).

When we eat out it is nearly always at a fish restaurant. However, recently I prefer to eat fatty meats. Also I have developed a like for lightly smoked salmon - I'm not fond of cooked salmon for some reason.
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  #596   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 12:03
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,225
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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But that's just it isn't it -

one has to eat liver and organs on a regular basis to get all needed nutrients, not just meat, eggs and cheese.

I don't think you can get everything from just meat as bear says, you need the organs etc. I think he says he eats organs right?

Also what about cooking destroying things like vitamin C? Frederick do you eat some of your liver etc raw?
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  #597   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 12:18
TBoneMitch TBoneMitch is offline
OOOOOOOOOH YEAH!
Posts: 692
 
Plan: High Fat/IF
Stats: 215/170/160 Male 5 feet 10 inches
BF:27%/12%/8%
Progress: 82%
Location: Montreal, Quebec
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Loops: from what I've read about Steffanson, he repeatedly stated that a diet of only muscle meat and fat will give one all the required nutrients.
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  #598   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 12:24
JandLsMom's Avatar
JandLsMom JandLsMom is offline
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Posts: 1,719
 
Plan: atkins induction
Stats: 330/330/165 Female 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Illinois
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Bear (or anyone else who knows) can you tell me the best way to cook chicken livers? Any spices that should be added? Should i boil, bake or panfry them? i never ate them but noticed at the store they are quite cheap so i bought some (since people have been talkign on this thread about eating liver and organs and other parts of animals). I have NO IDEA how to cook the chicken livers though..lol. So i will patiently wait for someone to give me some ideas before i take them out to cook! thanks!
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  #599   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 12:55
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 8,791
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 212/179/160 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Rural Maine
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How about doing a search in the recipe forums? I just did, and got a lot in return. Here's one recipe: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...t=chicken+liver

Just do a regular search on liver, and then check off the recipe forum only. Or don't limit it; you'll probably get more than you wanted!
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  #600   ^
Old Sun, Mar-12-06, 14:01
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,512
 
Plan: Atkins - Maintenance
Stats: 185/150/150 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOOPS
Frederick do you eat some of your liver etc raw?


Hi Loops,

No, I don't have it raw. I prefer my calf liver medium rare on the rare side, just like my steaks.

The rest of the assorted liver, I usually have either in the form of pate, or a very medium rare foie gras.

Kidneys, tripe, stomach I have fully cooked. Tongues I'll have medium with some kind of sauce--basically, the way it's prepared in Chinese cuisine.

Best regards,

Frederick
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