I'm in terrible shape again, I really could use some advice here. I've cut way back on the carbs, aiming for ketosis, and I should be well below 20 carbs per day, the only significant source of carbs I'm getting are in the vegetables I eat with my suppers. I haven't had a slip-up in almost a month now.

Well, the title says it all. I'm ravenously hungry and gaining weight from the extra food I'm eating. (Hard boiled eggs and 90% dark chocolate, which I plan to replace with fat bombs.) This happened the first time I tried for ketosis, but I was eating too many carbs to get into ketosis and too few carbs to function on them, I was so sure I was going to do it right this time.

I don't know what to do. I really enjoy the food I'm eating, but my body obviously needs something it's not getting right now. Are there people who simply can't handle a ketogenic diet maybe? If I'm forced to add carbs back into my diet, how many should I aim for here? Or is there something else I can try to do something about my hunger?

It's so frustrating going on a diet that's supposed to eliminate your hunger and give you endless energy only to be left still starving and still too exhausted to move, I really cannot win here . . .

Hi, Tyle. I'm sorry it's been so rough.

I am one of those who finds it helpful to keep some food plan parameters that are ones I can live with for a long time,

and

which have sound biochemical foundations.

For me, that means:

Enough protein to repair tissue, but not extra.

Enough fat to feel satisfied, and keep my brain happy, but not so much that it causes unpleasant symptoms.

Carbs strictly within a range that does not trigger appetite or weight gain, and not so few that it causes me to feel as though my body is struggling.

How did I arrive at the amounts of P: F: C that fit for me?

Trial and error, yes, lots, but also discovering a plan that fits me.

I use Dr. Jan Kwasniewski's ratios of P: F: C, and I follow Dr. Richard Bernstein's recommendations of eating the same amount from breakfast to breakfast, day to day, and the lunch to lunch, day to day, etc., for constant blood sugar.

I eat real food, and I don't have to worry about what the food will do to my body, after I have put it into my mouth.

For me, finding the right foods, the right amounts, and the right meal timing, and understanding some of the biochemistry gives me peace about my food plan.

If you'd be willing to track what you eat, and how much of each thing, and to calculate your P: F: C, it could give some answers as to why you are not getting results, and why you are so hungry.

Also, reactions to either man-made chemicals in foods, and naturally occurring chemicals in foods can cause one to not lose weight, as well as trigger appetite.

I hope this helps.

I wish you success in finding a way of eating that really fits you.

We would all like to troubleshoot your Diet, but without more details, it may be difficult, so could you answer a few questions? Your plan is "non-specific", is the 20g Total or net? I find keeping carbs below 20 total and those primarily from vegetables is the best way to control hunger, which you do. Do you measure or weigh foods? How much protein do you eat? Do you eat meat or fish good sources of protein for muscle for your activity? As Em answered we all have to find the P:F:C ratio that works for ourselves, but starting with one plan's suggested ratio is a good start point. It has worked for hundreds of patients before, like Dr Bernstein's, and you can always adjust from there.
Is your goal to lose weight...you are already a healthy BMI of 24 if stats are up to date? Could your hunger be your body response to hold a healthy weight for you? If your goal is to lose more weight down to 120, there is no reason to add chocolate or fat bombs, or drink fatty coffee either. The clinic plan I follow allows none of that if your goal is weight loss. https://www.dietdoctor.com/se/wp-co...starch_diet.pdf Maybe following a strict diet plan of 20g carbs with more protein, limited vegetables and limited added fat may help curb your hunger. Chocolate may trigger your hunger, elimate that for a while and any artificial sweeteners even stevia. (Other plans and tips were also suggested on your first post back in January, reread that thread too as it had good advice like bouillon, salt, enough water to counter the dehydrating effects of LC, etc. )

If you're finding you need to snack a lot, I agree maybe looking at your meal structure makes sense. The way I handle things like dark chocolate or fat bombs, if I want them, is to plan them right into meals rather than having them as snacks. I've learned from cream with my coffee that if I minimize non-meal calories and just eat meals that are a bit more substantial, the meals will be more satiating. And I do better with two bigger meals a day than with 3 or more smaller ones, the same amount of food is more satiating that way.

My experience agrees with SilverEm on the protein thing. If my protein intake is too high, I'm more likely to binge, apparently staying to the ketogenic side is very effective for me there. If I push the protein extra low--it actually works a bit better for a day or two, but then I crave protein and end up being less ketogenic to make up for the deficit. When I originally went more keto, first thing I did was read Dr. Bernstein's book--because I was looking for the sort of stability in blood ketones that he looks for in blood glucose, and it's really just a matter of slightly tighter protein vs. his program.

What are you eating - is it all real food? I find excess protein of any kind makes me hungry and so do dairy products and grains as I am very sensitive to the casein, whey & gliadin proteins in them. Other than butter, I keep cream, cheese, cream cheese, yogurt, kefir out of the house (I can handle Atkins Induction-level amounts occasionally when eating out). Also, are you eating any processed meats? The MSG, nitrates, nitrites induce cravings in some.

drink water.---2 qts

I drink more if I use a fat mcdonald's straw.

Adding ice makes me drink MORE. Keeps a large drinking cup cold even an hour later.......

use a large quart size drinking cup....

if all 20 carbs are in one meal, dinner, divide this over at least two meals

Thank you for all of the posts everyone! Hopefully I can get this sorted out with all of your help.

~SilverEm -- that sounds like what I'm trying to do here, figure out what I need to feel full. I've been keeping a food diary for years, is that what you mean? Just a more detailed version?

I'll have to look up the PFC ratios to see what they are but I'm already eating the same amount every day, so I can't change that. I don't eat anything processed either, unless block and cream cheese counts!

How would you recommend calculating the nutrients in my recipes so I can work out the ratios of what I'm eating now? The recipe nutrient calculator I used to use is seriously confused about several things I eat so I gave up using it quite a while ago.

Thank you! I really want this to work, I love the food, but I'm not loving the hunger!

~JEY100

I didn't even think to write any details, sorry! I haven't updated my profile but I'm aiming for ketogenic now. 20g is net grams of carbs, I thought fiber didn't count?

I measure and weigh everything, every other month I go on a cooking spree where I cook enough dinners and breakfasts to last two months, so everything is neatly portioned out for me.

I'm not sure how much protein I'm getting at the moment, I figure my suppers have about 30 in them, maybe 15 in my hard-boiled eggs and cheese, around 10 - 15 in my clam chowder perhaps? I'm definitely eating meat and fish though.

I haven't updated my stats, I'm down to 139 now. I suppose it might be that my body doesn't want to lose more weight, but it seems like I should be able to lose the weight I piled on when I cut sugar out. (I used to be 132 and gained 18 pounds back.) Plus I still have a big swollen belly I want to lose.

The chocolate and fat bombs are just a crutch to get me between meals until I find a meal plan that keeps me satisfied, then I'll cut them out. I actually ran out of chocolate last night, so it's just zero carb fat bombs left now! I don't touch artificial sweeteners, I hate them.

I'm pretty sure I'm sticking to everything in my original thread but I'll double check it to be sure, thanks for reminding me!

~teaser -- that reminds me of something I read, that your body learns to expect a certain number of calories at each meal, and if it gets short changed you'll feel hungry. Makes sense that a snack might just make you hungrier if that's true! Still, it used to be that one or two pieces of chocolate would be enough to get me to the next meal.

Hmmm. I'm not lasting long between meals, I don't know if I'd dare eat just two big meals. I thought I had reactive hypoglycemia since I get hungry every 3 - 4 hours like clockwork but it's still happening even when my meals are low carb. I'd be afraid to cut back on protein too, I'm barely getting enough.

~deirdra -- yup, all real food, so long as cheese counts! I did add some dairy to my diet, heavy whipping cream is the base for my clam chowder, but last month it didn't bother me at all, the hunger has only kicked into high gear the last week or so. I don't eat any processed meats either.

~Ms Arielle -- drinking water has never done a thing for me besides leave me queasy and running to the bathroom every half hour unfortunately. The carbs are in the entire day, and I probably don't get all the way up to 20, it might only be 10 or so.

Thank you for your detailed answers and update...hang in there, you will figure out the healthiest plan for you to maintain long-term. I use the recipe calculator in My Fitness Pal, easy to find the ingredients and since it is the largest tracking app used by many low carbers, many recipes are already in the database. Type in something like Broccoli Salad Kristie Sullivan and the CookingKetowithKristie recipe has already been entered. If you use a cookbook like Wheat Belly or Keto Karma (Simply Keto) just enter those terms and see what recipes are already there.

For some people, they do absorb the fiber so to use extra caution and be sure all patients are on the same page, some clinic doctors use Total Carbs. Dr Westman likens net carbs to an 'over the counter' solution and Total carbs "prescription strength."
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=460202 But at this point you also need to find a maintenance level without hunger, and that may include more vegetables, or flaxmeal, but using 20g Total May get you back to 132 for now.

Protein is definitely one of those individual things, but I would need way more than 55 g to be satisfied with my meals. It sounds like you have tried to stick with low protein levels for a while, now it is not working well, so maybe shake up your body by switching to unrestricted protein and veg (eat to satisfaction). http://www.burnfatnotsugar.com/ProteinEnergy.html

Back to your goal weight, you are already at a BMI of 23, 120 would be 20 and approaching underweight. Were you happy and maintaining at 132?, maybe that should be your goal? A big swollen belly at 139?...could this be post pregnancy flab, digestive issues, sensitivity to a food, medications, possible health issues with organs? No need to answer here, but is this something that should be checked by a doctor?
Or, may have missed it, but what about exercise? If you are exhausted, it doesn’t have to be rigorous...Simple as walking and doing body weight compound moves at home, like planks?

Hi, Tyle. JEY100's suggestion of MyFitnessPal might be what you are looking for.

I don't really use recipes, so calculating the grams of protein, of fat, and of carbs is simple.

Example:

1 ounce of meat, fish, or a whole egg at 6g/PRO per oz.

1 ounce of cooked green vegs at 1g/CHO per oz.

Like Janet eating only 55 gms of protein a day would keep me perpetually hungry. I eat almost entirely meat and low carb veggies, with only small amounts of sunflower seeds and some flax seeds, coconut oil and olive oil, and bone broth. I tried staying at between 50-60 gms of protein but I was never satisfied. This way works best for me. Also I eat only 2 meals a day.

~JEY100 -- thank you, I'll head over there and crunch numbers, see how many calories I'm really getting here. Maybe they'll have info on the frozen veggies I use too, I just finished cooking and don't have any bags in the freezer right now.

The only thing is they say you have to load up on fat on the ketogenic diet and my calorie requirements are minuscule, by the time I get just enough protein it seems like all of the other calories have to come from fat! It'll be tricky to get more protein but I'll try, I can put more clams in my clam chowder for starters.

I was maintaining at 132 but not happy with it, I still had a big swollen belly. I suppose it might be a food sensitivity but I can't imagine to what at this point, I've already cut so much from my diet. Doctors are pretty useless to me but I will put write it down for my next visit.

I don't exercise at all, it makes me really sick. I have chronic fatigue syndrome and it seems like I can't do anything without triggering post extertional malaise, even five pushups against a wall sets me off. I can't even clean my house properly anymore.

~SilverEm -- my recipes are pretty basic too, but it's interesting to use recipe calculators to see how many nutrients I'm getting from what I'm eating and see if I'm falling short anywhere. Plus I don't have the faintest clue how much protein, carbs, and fats are in food offhand.

~cotonpal -- yeah, I'm going to try to increase the amount of protein I'm getting, see if it makes a difference. It's just hard to find wiggle room when my calorie requirements are so low and I'm supposed to load up on fat for energy!

I am sorry to hear you have CFS, I know how limiting that can be on even your daily activities, much less added exercise. Good idea to ask your doctor about the belly and especially liver and any medications. There is a forum here on CFS.
http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=47


Spend a few days entering everything you eat into MFP. You may be surprised how much fat is in meat, fish, eggs naturally. For weight loss, I tend to follow the protocols where you only add enough fat for satiety and not pay much attention to calories at all. Channeling Dr Atkins, Calories count, but you do not have to Count calories. If you are doing a strict 90:10 Ketogenic Diet to manage your CFS symptoms then you would have to add fats and check calories, but otherwise try eating protein with natural fat, e.g. eggs, 80% ground beef, add some salad with olive oil, and find the ratios you would get if eating fat only to satiety with more protein. Aim for 1.5 grams protein per kilo reference weight, https://blog.virtahealth.com/protein-ketogenic-diet/ ( about 91g or 13 Oz for 5'5” and not less than 70g) 20g carbs, added fat only to satiety. With increased fatty protein you may not need any fat except what needed to cook with.
It can be a pain to track at first, having to pick the right entry for each food, but we tend over time to eat the same things and entry becomes much quicker and easier, and not something you need to do everyday. Dr Westman usually does not recommend using macro calculators, because if your goal is to burn your own body fat, there is no good way to estimate that for each person, but it must be taken into account in the ratios. So if you see a Keto definition of 75% fat, remember part of it is coming from your body's fat stores, you do not Eat that amount of fat on your plate.

have you looked into sibo?

I had the really big bloated tummy too until I went on to a really strict Keto with 12 grams of carbs a day and 64 grams of protein a day. I find it's totally doable and I do not feel hungry from that amount of protein. Actually I'm usually under that amount usually around 55 or so. I just make sure I cook in lots of lard and I also use homemade mayonnaise as a dip for my vegetables. between the two of those I get lots of fat and it totally Tides me over. I don't get hungry in between meals or at night or anything like that. I also used to have a dip in energy around 3 in the afternoon everyday no matter what I tried. And I don't get that anymore either. I have constant energy all the time.

Anyways you've gotten some really good advice on this thread from some of the regular posters here. I hope you have success in figuring out the right macros Etc

My approach is like SilverEm's, no mistake since we both look to Dr. Bernstein for this. I do two meals a day, 7 ounces of raw meat or egg equivalent. I lean into keto more because it seems to help with bipolar/schizo issues, improves mood plus a problem with hearing voices that lasted for decades went away when I started targeting ketosis. Maybe not coincidentally, this also proved effective against binge eating. I don't really do fat bombs now, I just take shots of heavy cream if I'm still hungry after a meal.