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  #1   ^
Old Sat, May-14-16, 00:45
RhythmBeat's Avatar
RhythmBeat RhythmBeat is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Diabetic Seeking Atkins
Stats: 205/205/165 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: California
Default Transforming from High Carb to Low Carb

Hi. First post. Please help guide me towards
the best forum to discuss my plan. Thank you.

One year ago I was 240 pounds. I'm type-two for fifteen years.
I watched The Widowmaker and was "scared straight"

I've been doing WFPB whole food plant based nutrition
food plan since being scared a year ago.
Still doing it. My weight is down to 204pounds.

I want to get to 165 pounds and am adding muscle mass.
I've been exercising (cardio/weights) intensely for three weeks.

Conceptually, I've trouble being on a high carb plant diet, eating starch,
keeping my BGLs down, losing weight and exercising intensely.

Most of my fat is abdomen fat. I need to lose all the fat possible
around the pancreas, kidneys and liver. When that happens,
I believe my body will not be insulin resistant any more.
Therefore, losing weight has become my extreme highest priority.

Studying nutrition plan possibilities, including ketogenic,
The Atkins Diet, The Dukan Diet and low carb plans;
I'll probably change to a low carb diet plan very soon.
Low carb plans are proud to claim being great for losing weight
and I want that fat out of my organs and abdomen.


I've studied, copied and filed The Atkins Diet food lists.
I read all four phase instructions sets. I'm beginning to better
understand what I need to do. Basically, I have had meat/fat
only when cheating this past year. Essentially, WFPB programs
are a 100% opposite of low/carb high/fat food plans.

There. Said it all. Who can help guide me towards
this forum's best direction? Thanks again. RhythmBeat
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, May-14-16, 05:53
NachoMama NachoMama is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 37
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 195/162/140 Female 63 inches
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: GA, USA
Default

First off, congratulations on the weight lost and your strong mindset towards getting healthy.

If you have only read about the plans and not the books on the diets, that's the first recommendation you are likely to get here. I'll add one that's not on your list - Dr Jason Fung's The Obesity Code. He's also got a website and a lot of his content is on dietdoctor.com. You can view the site free for a month.

The bad news is that you may not stop your insulin resistance once you lose weight. All bodies are different. However, experience (which you will read as you investigate the stories on this forum) shows that BG is better controlled and you'll feel better on a low carb diet.

You can make your diet/tracking as easy/complicated as you want, personally I'm on the making it easy side. There are also debates on how important exercise is, but I know it's the only way I see the body changes I want to see.

The most important thing to know is that especially for those with health concerns, this isn't a diet. It's a WOE (way of eating) for life. Not to say that you can't ever enjoy a starch again, but this is a program that rewards compliance and your benefits will disappear if you go back to a SAD (standard American diet). So while you want to lose weight quickly - who doesn't - you will be in a better mindset for success if you accept this as how you need to fuel yourself to manage your health for life.
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  #3   ^
Old Sat, May-14-16, 08:33
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

Welcome
You have found the best low carb forum to help you since many versions of LC diets are supported here. It also has forums on Health issues, including an excellent one on diabetes. http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45 Suggest you read back through some threads, and nacho mama suggested look into Dr. Jason Fung for a fasting protocol that can be added to LCHF to help with visceral fat and insulin resistance.http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=472377
Also as she suggested, look at the DietDoctor website, because the first free month gives you access to great talks and "how to" courses by Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. Eric Westman, Dr. Eenfeldt himself, Dr. Jay Wortman, Dr. Sarah Hallberg http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=467426 and others that specialize in IR and diabetes. The DietDoctor two week challenge gives you the diet used in Dr. Westman's clinic, but with terrific added shopping and clean-out lists, recipes, tips ...everything you need in one place, even carb counting is not needed if you follow it including limits of certain foods. (in the clinic with obese and diabetic patients, Dr. Westman does not use "the phases" until you are 10 pounds from goal.) Let us know how we can help, all the best,

ps, I watched Widowmaker, and because already LC, had a CAC done. There is even a forum on cholesterol and heart..here is my experience: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=471526
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  #4   ^
Old Sat, May-14-16, 11:52
RhythmBeat's Avatar
RhythmBeat RhythmBeat is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Diabetic Seeking Atkins
Stats: 205/205/165 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: California
Default

Thank you, NachoMama and JEY100. I'm taking note
on all links you both posted and the noted comments.
I'm still on McDougall's TSS program at this very moment,
but need to prepare my house and food and planning
and lifestyle to change over.

I am not afraid of eating meat or being a vegetarian.
I just want success for myself, body, fight against medicine
and towards developing a lifetime lifestyle nutrition plan.
Thanks again. RhythmBeat
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, May-15-16, 04:33
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

As I mentioned on the other thread, what we have in common is that I started low carb (Atkins 2010) after four years of being on TheCancerProject diet, Mcdougall and Barnard part of that one too. Though I wasn't a perfect vegetarian, I scoffed up every starch I could have and gained 60 pounds. Bread, pasta, oatmeal, all sorts of bean dishes. Disaster for me, weight, joint pain, skin rash worse. After I read Gary Taubes on cancer, my "lightening bolt" moment, I went on the Atkins version that includes 15 net gram Carbs from "foundation vegetables"...turns out that is a lot. But without the starches, esp. Bread and oatmeal, I lost weight.

Six months later, I had my first appointment at Duke with Dr Westman. His clinic plan does not require even counting carbs...but...has a limit of 3 cups of vegetables. With my cancer history, I wanted more, and since he wrote the 2010 Atkins, he couldn't disagree that it was working. But his clinic specializes in Diabetes, so from six years of being in a large support group with many others, I would suggest for Your Goal of getting off meds, that you do follow the clinic diet exactly for two weeks, then start adding more veggies but only from his list of allowed vegetables. I would make big salads for lunch and dinner...didnt measure, eat as much lettuce as I wanted. It's only lettuce, for goodness sake Eat only when Hungry (his version of IF). Since you are comparing diets, here is the link from DietDoctor for the two week challenge. http://www.kostdoktorn.se/wp-conten...starch_diet.pdf
So much supporting information on DietDoctor, simple recipes, help cleaning out those starches you have in the kitchen . But for any meal you do have, especially when adding carbs, check your BG before and an hour later. Adjust if you are not back to baseline.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, May-15-16 at 07:02.
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, May-15-16, 11:23
RhythmBeat's Avatar
RhythmBeat RhythmBeat is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Diabetic Seeking Atkins
Stats: 205/205/165 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: California
Default

Thank you, JEY100. I am comparing diets.
Lifestyle and ability in kitchen and refrigerator
and preparation for work are factors as well.

Another big factor has arisen ~ will I eat enough calories/carbs
to sustain my ability to be active and perky at work
and can I work out with intensity. Will I need more carbs?

I like Dr Westerman ~ have watched three of his videos.
I watched Dr William Davis in several interviews, yesterday.
Have studied several ketogenic diet plans.

As I leave a WFPB program, I will be seeking proteins
and fats from the most healthiest of sources. We shall see.
Thanks again. RhythmBeat
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, May-16-16, 11:20
RhythmBeat's Avatar
RhythmBeat RhythmBeat is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Diabetic Seeking Atkins
Stats: 205/205/165 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: California
Default

I'm beginning to begin.

I've purchased lots of zero or near-zero carb foods.
I have not 100% started phase one because
I need to figure out, procure, prepare and eat
20grams of vegetables.
And, until then, I am still eating a small bit of wheat carbs
for cereal and sandwich. Just not the time to trash them.
Adding zero carb foods does make me feel very full.

Soon, my plan is Atkins phase one and to mix in Wheat Belly.
I have my red wine vinegar, olive oil, lots of salt-free herb blend,
tons of bulk spices and herbs and have bought almond milk.

Will announce full kick-off, soon.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, May-16-16, 11:32
RhythmBeat's Avatar
RhythmBeat RhythmBeat is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Diabetic Seeking Atkins
Stats: 205/205/165 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: California
Default

JEY100. Dr Fung's book seems to be about fasting.
I am pre-starting phase one.
Fasting may be a bit much for me.
I'm preparing to return to work
and am continuing to exercise strongly.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, May-16-16, 11:49
RhythmBeat's Avatar
RhythmBeat RhythmBeat is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Diabetic Seeking Atkins
Stats: 205/205/165 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: California
Default

Sorry. I am having a tough time keeping up.
Some grateful sharing kind members share a link,
then that link has links and then more links.
And some links are wonderful but quite long.
It takes time to study and also know what I'm looking for.

I guess my major questions are:
1) if keeping carbs to 20grams/day, it's OK to eat anything else
on recommended list and not worry about calorie totals? Right?

2) How do I tell someone that I am eating 2000calories
of high fat oil and dairy and meat, but still lose weight?
Scientifically, how does the body lose weight?
I know things work in the world of carbs, fats and proteins.
I know to avoid sugar and wheat/grains and fruit, etc.
But, until now, I've read 2000calories in = great weigh loss
and can stop diabetes as well. I know/believe it is true,
but how does the body make it happen?

Frustrated. I will still begin to check the shared links.
Just hoping to "own the concept" before starting.
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  #10   ^
Old Mon, May-16-16, 19:22
ReneeH20 ReneeH20 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,291
 
Plan: Dr. Westman
Stats: 280/170/170 Female 69.8 in
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Hi, there! I have lost 100+ pounds using Dr. Westman's pg 4 diet. I am living proof that you don't have to count calories, you can eat foods on the plan (no cheats) and lose weight. If you eat to fullness, over time your calories decrease naturally.
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, May-17-16, 00:08
RhythmBeat's Avatar
RhythmBeat RhythmBeat is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 89
 
Plan: Diabetic Seeking Atkins
Stats: 205/205/165 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: California
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneeH20
Hi, there! I have lost 100+ pounds using Dr. Westman's pg 4 diet. I am living proof that you don't have to count calories, you can eat foods on the plan (no cheats) and lose weight. If you eat to fullness, over time your calories decrease naturally.


Thank you very much. I got the booklet. Great options.

I'm very happy this is a "low carb" forum and
not a forum dedicated to one doctor or diet or plan.
RhythmBeat
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  #12   ^
Old Tue, May-17-16, 04:20
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

I gave a simple calorie explanation on another of your threads, and attached those links so that you can choose the explanation that helps you understand it best. I did not mean to confuse but give you options. Some are "sciencey", some have graphs for the visual learners and some podcasts/videos for the listeners. Take what works for you, leave the rest.

Dr Jason Fung has become popular because he has new ways of explaining obesity and insulin resistance, like the "two compartment" model...if you are carrying 6 months of food in your "basement freezer" ...how do you tap into it for the daily energy you get from the kitchen fridge? (Lower insulin) You do not have to add a "fasting protocol" or start with a 3 day fast, but as Renee said, just follow the plan, and your hunger will lessen. (Eat when hungry, stop when full)

Another Dr Fung example...a small steak and a large Coke have the same calories...which provides the nutrients your body needs for repair? which makes you satiated more and for longer? Or more succinctly, the body doesn't give two sh*ts about calories, there are no "calorie receptors" but there are receptors for all hormones, nutrients and the other components of steak beyond energy. Eat a steak and salad with olive oil for dinner, you may find you are not hungry until noon the next day.

Yes, this is a great forum because we know many versions of a low carb real foods diet can work. And as you see in the "plan" listed in my profile...even three can work together. ..but only after you start with the best one that meets your goal. To lower BG and get off meds...my suggestion is Dr Westman at least for two weeks. Then evaluate by Eating to your meter what and how many vegetables you can add.

Edit: teaser's last paragraph explains why, for your goal, starting with the strictest level of LC is beneficial.

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, May-17-16 at 05:11.
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  #13   ^
Old Tue, May-17-16, 04:48
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
2) How do I tell someone that I am eating 2000calories
of high fat oil and dairy and meat, but still lose weight?
Scientifically, how does the body lose weight?
I know things work in the world of carbs, fats and proteins.
I know to avoid sugar and wheat/grains and fruit, etc.
But, until now, I've read 2000calories in = great weigh loss
and can stop diabetes as well. I know/believe it is true,
but how does the body make it happen?



Well, for one thing--you're a five foot nine male. Being able to eat two thousand calories and still lose fat/weight is entirely plausible, that's why. It's not an extraordinary claim, so really doesn't demand extraordinary explanations.

But that said, the core of a diet like Atkins isn't to eat a set number of calories, whether high or low, it's to eat to appetite. Many people simply find themselves eating less calories, at least while they are in active weightloss.

Whether there's a greater basal metabolism is under constant debate. But setting that aside--anecdotally, people often experience an increase in get up and go, switching to a low carb diet. An increase in spontaneous activity can probably help to offset an increased calorie intake.

With the diabetes, that's a little different. Low carb doesn't work there just through a decrease in body fat. Decrease in liver and pancreas fat might be what's needed to reverse insulin resistance and type II diabetes. But even at a given level of insulin resistance--if your insulin resistance is strong enough that your endogenous production of insulin can't control your blood glucose--lowering carbohydrate intake lowers your insulin needs, even if this was all that carbohydrate restriction accomplished, this ought to improve the blood glucose numbers of most type II diabetics.
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  #14   ^
Old Tue, May-17-16, 07:11
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

RhythmBeat, I wonder if you are overthinking this? You have asked a good number of good probing questions and have been given honest and knowledgable responses. You will never know if a low carb plan will work to overcome your diabetes and excess fat till you give it a go!

One more book I'd suggest is Gary Taubes' Why We Get Fat (and What to Do About It). It gives a brief (compared to Good Calories, Bad Calories, at least) synopsis of why low carb works to stabilize and improve the metabolism and in the What to Do About It chapter, he presents Dr Westman's No Sugar No Starch plan - the same 4 page plan that Teaser and JEY suggest.

You've apparently been doing a WFPB diet for a while, but you've never really indicated whether it has been successful for you or not. I think it's time to dive in and see how LC works for you. The worst that will happen is you go back to your old diet. On the other hand, you might find something that works better for you. Good luck!

Last edited by Liz53 : Tue, May-17-16 at 07:30.
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  #15   ^
Old Tue, May-17-16, 08:04
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Default

One thing that jumped out at me in your (very in depth!) musings:

the 20 grams of carbs...

It is not necessary to eat 20 grams for a very LC WOE to succeed. Just stay at OR below 20.

If you get all or most of those carbs from veggies, it's better.

But, after nearly 3 years of moderate to very low carb, (I currently stay below 20) I will have a high fat yogurt occasionally, and that counts for 9 grams.

If you have armed yourself with low/zero carb items, feel free to trash the grains for good, and just GO. The one thing I would definitely recommend, if you haven't yet gotten it, is salty broth. There is a lot of sugar in the foods in the standard diet, and when we both stop eating them, AND we start emptying fat cells, we can become low on salt.

Salty broth seems to help with both that, and, importantly, the carb flu that many people experience, as their bodies make the switch from high sugar metabolism to fat metabolism.
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