Nutritional Ketosis : LC Research/Media Forum : Active Low-Carber Forums

#31 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 06:53

Nancy LC

Experimenter

Posts: 25,865

Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67

BF:
Progress: 72%

Location: San Diego, CA

I was just trying to figure out how much protein I could eat for supposedly not eating more than 25% of my calories (1700). I get the feeling 106g is too high for me.

Sponsored Links

#32 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 13:29

Aradasky

Senior Member

Posts: 10,116

Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'

BF:
Progress: 100%

Location: Southern California

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teaser

That's from the wikipedia entry for the citric acid cycle. The citric acid cycle chews up NAD+ and spits out NADH... which should increase production of beta-hydroxybutyrate from acetoacetate... but that might not make sense, since glycolysis would produce NADH, too. Can't say I really understand all this yet.

Quote:
The term redox state is often used to describe the balance of NAD+/NADH and NADP+/NADPH in a biological system such as a cell or organ. The redox state is reflected in the balance of several sets of metabolites (e.g., lactate and pyruvate, beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate), whose interconversion is dependent on these ratios. An abnormal redox state can develop in a variety of deleterious situations, such as hypoxia, shock, and sepsis. Redox signaling involves the control of cellular processes by redox processes.

Would levels of lactate and pyruvate production have an effect, since in a carb-adapted state they'd compete for reaction with NAD+ or NADH? So you get this weird thing where increased availability of glucose in the cell actually increases use of acetoacetate? At least in muscle cells.

Teaser, I am not quite sure I understand all this, but somewhere in this discussion, in my mind, I hear the argument of the LC weight lifters saying "That is why we have to carb up after an intense workout so we can build more and better defined muscle or it is toned and sleek, but not 'chisled'."

#33 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 13:46

Aradasky

Senior Member

Posts: 10,116

Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'

BF:
Progress: 100%

Location: Southern California

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy LC

It sounded like, from the Phinney interview, to keep protein to 25% of daily calories burned... not consumed. Am I right?

So, using one of those basal metabolic rate calculators if you're at 1700 calories then protein would be around 106g. That still seems like quite a lot of protein.

(1700 * .25) / 4

I just plugged in some food in my plan:

2 jumbo eggs
8 oz shrimp
5 oz lean-ish beef
2 chicken thighs
=============
106g protein

That's quite a lot of protein, more than I eat in a typical day, I think. I might have to go lower than that.

Nancy, this is a lot of protein.
I started on a higher fat diet a while ago and looking at my stats, my day ranges from a high of about 90 grams down to 70 grams of protein a day. I try to keep my fat at 70% or higher. I figured that at a 1700 calories that I need at least 132 grams of fat, at 1800 140 grams so if I keep my fat level at 130 to 140 a day then I am happy.

#34 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 13:56

Aradasky

Senior Member

Posts: 10,116

Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'

BF:
Progress: 100%

Location: Southern California

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilili

It definitely sounds very interesting and I would want to try it out; though not buy that meter (I could never bring myself to taking that blood sample).

This however is the part I am most curious about:

What would good nutritional ketosis meals and snacks look like?
Would anyone have links to recipes that fit well in such a fat fast?

Pilili this is not a fat fast, this is a daily way of eating.

I track everything, make normal meals, (well, I do not eat breakfast per say, then I eat my eggs at lunch) watch calories and add fat such as cream in my coffee, coconut oil or butter for breakfast, use TBS coconut oil or olive oil in cooking, add butter to veges and often snack on nuts (have to watch the protein here) or peanut butter and coconut oil.

Adding fat adds calories. I do not know how many calories I can eat, along with this higher fat level and lose, maintain or gain. I have not been doing this long enough. I will develope that chart as I go along.

+++++

I do not have the strips yet, have the meter tho. I tested my blood because of diabetes for years (don't have to any more!) so this will not be a problem.

I ate tons of nuts and some bread on my trip, it was hard to eat at regular times and eating was impossible to track. I weigh myself tomorrow morning and really get back on my eating schedule again. I am claiming jet lag and sleep deprivation for one more day. LOL

#35 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 14:32

RawNut

Lipivore

Posts: 1,208

Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches

BF:
Progress: 94%

Location: Florida

I've decided to cut protein too. My RDA for protein is about 65 grams for my goal weight. I find I can still get well over 100% for all essential aminos with even less protein.

#36 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 14:41

Nancy LC

Experimenter

Posts: 25,865

Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67

BF:
Progress: 72%

Location: San Diego, CA

I think there's too many carbs there to get into nutritional ketosis... at least there is for me.

#37 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 15:00

Aradasky

Senior Member

Posts: 10,116

Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'

BF:
Progress: 100%

Location: Southern California

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nancy LC

I think there's too many carbs there to get into nutritional ketosis... at least there is for me.

I agree, I like to keep mine between 30 and 40g a day...

#38 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 15:27

RawNut

Lipivore

Posts: 1,208

Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches

BF:
Progress: 94%

Location: Florida

That's only 57 grams of carbs unless you're counting the fiber. I'm male though and bigger than you.

#39 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 16:10

teaser

Senior Member

Posts: 15,075

Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches

BF:
Progress: 104%

Location: Ontario

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aradasky

Volek cowrote the TNT Diet, which as a cyclic ketogenic diet with weekend carb refeeds... so I don't think he'd disagree with the bodybuilders about that necessarily. I guess it depends on your situation, some of us need to optimize for fat loss rather than maximum muscle mass.

I don't think anybody has to carb up any more than anybody has to take steroids.

#40 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 16:10

Turtle2003 Turtle2003 is offline

Senior Member

Posts: 1,449

Plan: Atkins, Newcastle
Stats: 260/221.8/165 Female 5'3"

BF:Highest weight 260
Progress: 40%

Location: Northern California

RawNut, what program is that you're using to track your food? It looks more complete than what I can get from Fitday.

#41 ^

Fri, Jul-13-12, 16:16

RawNut

Lipivore

Posts: 1,208

Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches

BF:
Progress: 94%

Location: Florida

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle2003

RawNut, what program is that you're using to track your food? It looks more complete than what I can get from Fitday.

It's Cron-o-meter.

#42 ^

Sat, Jul-14-12, 09:46

Aradasky

Senior Member

Posts: 10,116

Plan: Atkins
Stats: 199/000/000 Female 5"3'

BF:
Progress: 100%

Location: Southern California

Quote:

Originally Posted by RawNut

That's only 57 grams of carbs unless you're counting the fiber. I'm male though and bigger than you.

Ooops, forgot to subtract the fiber! LOL Yes, you are bigger and more male than me....

#43 ^

Wed, Jul-25-12, 14:35

beernutz

Senior Member

Posts: 284

Plan: low carb
Stats: 195/174/170 Male 72 inches

BF:22%/15.2%/6 pack!
Progress: 84%

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle2003

To first get into what he calls "nutritional ketosis" - at least 2 and more likely 4 to 6 weeks.

If you take even a one day holiday from low carb eating - 1 to 2 weeks to get back into nutritional ketosis.

If he is right, then this is a real eye opener for me about ketosis. No wonder I never turned those stupid strips purple.

I've experimented a few times with this and 1 to 2 weeks must be the mode rather than the minimum because I can 'carb up' for several days in a row and then get back to turning Ketostix dark purple in as little as 3 days.

I have to both lift weights and play a lot of tennis (2 of those 3 days say) and keep the fat % of my diet very high and carbs very low after the carb up but it is pretty clear to me that I'm back in nutritional ketosis in less than half a week. I think this just means that there is quite a bit of human variability in the numbers Phinney quoted and I may be an outlier.

#44 ^

Wed, Jul-25-12, 15:37

Nancy LC

Experimenter

Posts: 25,865

Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67

BF:
Progress: 72%

Location: San Diego, CA

Not sure the ketostix accurately reflect what's going on in the blood. The definition that we're working with here is blood ketones greater than .5 something or other.

And it might be it is easier for some than others. It took someone else who was already doing low carb a week of being extra observant, lowering protein and raising fat, to get to that level.

#45 ^

Wed, Jul-25-12, 16:22

RawNut

Lipivore

Posts: 1,208

Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches

BF:
Progress: 94%

Location: Florida

Ketostix measure acetoacetate while the blood test measures Beta-hydroxybutyrate. Since nutritional ketosis depends on converting acetoacetate to Beta-hydroxybutyrate, it would be impossible to tell with ketostix.