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  #76   ^
Old Wed, May-19-10, 06:49
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 10,275
 
Plan: ketosis/IF
Stats: 190/158/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 89%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcb
As an aside, somewhere in the middle of reading posts in this thread from April/May, I started wondering about if and how much the burning of muscle spikes insulin (hello vicious stall circle), at least in some people, the way that excess protein in the diet can. It doesn't really answer your question at all, but your question made me think of it.


If you look at end stage starvation, where body fat levels are very low, and lean tissue is wasting away, maybe this relates. During normal fasting leucine tends to build up in the blood; this might be a signal to the system that the body is starving, things need to slow down. This is sort of consistent with the idea that too many calories from protein vs carbohydrate or fat might induce reduced levels of T3; lots of protein being oxidized being a signal of starvation. At least in some people.

Somebody mentioned also carbohydrate being needed to burn fat. This is based on the need for glucose to synthesize oxaloacetate, which pairs with acetyl-CoA to produce citric acid. Glucose is probably only needed for this when insulin signalling is high. Oxaloacetate can also be produced within the Citric Acid cycle itself. But, this involves the degradation of proteins-- it could be as easily said that fat burns in the flame of proteins, as that it burns in the flame of carbohydrate. So it makes sense that a false signal that lean mass is wasting away and needs to be conserved might slow down fat metabolism, as well.
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  #77   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 09:22
ubizmo's Avatar
ubizmo ubizmo is offline
New Member
Posts: 384
 
Plan: mumble
Stats: 273/230/200 Male 73 inches
BF:yup
Progress: 59%
Location: Philadelphia, USA
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I've just started following this diet. I'm trying not to do what I usually do, which is to overanalyze it until it succumbs to the death of a thousand "tweaks."

Since sources seem to vary as to whether the allowed carb grams are .5 or .8 of the allowed protein grams, I'm just using that as a range, until I see what works. Or doesn't work. In fact, if the point of the carbs is to prevent ketosis and make gluconeogensis unnecessary, I don't see the point of a ratio anyway. I doubt that hepatic glycogen storage varies as much as ideal body weight does, and the correlation between the two is probably very weak.

But there I go again...

Ubizmo
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  #78   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 10:07
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 3,018
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Welcome Ubizmo, you made me smile about the death of a thousand tweaks. I applaud your using the range of .5 to .8. I even bought a book from Poland and he says different things on different pages, so the range sounds safe to me. Do you use My Plan or Fitday, or some such, to keep track?
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  #79   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 11:54
ubizmo's Avatar
ubizmo ubizmo is offline
New Member
Posts: 384
 
Plan: mumble
Stats: 273/230/200 Male 73 inches
BF:yup
Progress: 59%
Location: Philadelphia, USA
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I'm using FatSecret, because it has a free BlackBerry app that syncs to the web site, which is handy. I started a journal here too, to sate my appetite for public humiliation.

Ubizmo
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  #80   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 14:28
LaZigeuner's Avatar
LaZigeuner LaZigeuner is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,065
 
Plan: ZULCA!
Stats: 353/279.2/175 Female 64 in.
BF: For now...
Progress: 41%
Location: U.S.
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Hi, I'm getting myself set up to start this as well. I've thought for a while now that too much protein was hindering my progress (or I should say causing my lack of progress!). Anyway, I like the idea of a carb range as well, though for me personally, I know I thrive when my net carbs are around 45, which is right about where the 0.8 ratio puts them. So I'm going to try to get mine toward the upper end of the range.

I've started creating some possible meal plans (this sort of planning has always been one of weaknesses) using Fitday, and I'm thinking getting in all the fat might be tricky. But then again, is that being too dogmatic? I'm wary, as I've fallen into that trap with Atkin/PP/PPLP/6wkCure/etc.

Anyway, cheers and good health to all!
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  #81   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 15:24
ubizmo's Avatar
ubizmo ubizmo is offline
New Member
Posts: 384
 
Plan: mumble
Stats: 273/230/200 Male 73 inches
BF:yup
Progress: 59%
Location: Philadelphia, USA
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I'm going to plan to come up a bit short on the protein, leaving a bit of elbow room for stray protein in things like sour cream or rondele soft cheese, if I need to add these as supplemental fats.

Ubizmo
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  #82   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 17:48
Conanbear Conanbear is offline
New Member
Posts: 17
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 265/235/185 Female 71
BF:
Progress: 38%
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Okay, I am sure I jumped on this bandwagon way too late, but I have a really easy question regarding the ratio -

should .8 for carbs be gross carb grams or net carb grams?
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  #83   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 17:53
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 3,018
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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JK doesn't mention net carbs at all in Optimal Nutrition, but in Poland they only show net carbs on the labels. So I would think net carbs is the way to calculate it.

Also, since he doesn't advocate a lot of vegetable fiber, the fiber is not a large count anyway so it is a no-big-deal thing in my opinion.
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  #84   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 17:57
Conanbear Conanbear is offline
New Member
Posts: 17
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 265/235/185 Female 71
BF:
Progress: 38%
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Thanks. Sorry I reposted. Did not know if anyone was following this thread anymore.
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  #85   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 18:14
ubizmo's Avatar
ubizmo ubizmo is offline
New Member
Posts: 384
 
Plan: mumble
Stats: 273/230/200 Male 73 inches
BF:yup
Progress: 59%
Location: Philadelphia, USA
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For what it's worth, I'm tracking net carbs. I believe it's standard in Europe to put net carbs on food labels.

Ubizmo
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  #86   ^
Old Thu, Aug-26-10, 16:11
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 720
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
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I use Dr. Kwasniewski's ratios but don't eat grains or legumes.

I stopped drinking tea and now drink fresh lemon juice in water or meat broth. Now having chicken or beef liver once a week, and eggs every day. I find this a very strengthening diet.

In case anyone is interested:

Peter Dobromylskyj, on his blog, Hyperlipid, discusses Dr. Kwasniewski's diet, which I find quite helpful.

I've used google translator to read some on Dr. K's website.


Nice to read of others following this plan.
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  #87   ^
Old Thu, Aug-26-10, 16:20
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 3,018
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
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Is Dr. K's web site current? Last time I looked around I couldn't find one where people were actively discussing.

which one did you use with Google translator?
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  #88   ^
Old Thu, Aug-26-10, 17:30
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 720
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
Default

I hope it's all right to post this link:

http://translate.google.com/transla...late.google.com

The translator works inconsistently, and sometimes writes very strange things. Nevertheless, I occasionally try to get through a bit more.

It's been easier to read Hyperlipid and search for Peter's blog posts and comments on Dr. K's diet and work.
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  #89   ^
Old Thu, Aug-26-10, 19:02
ubizmo's Avatar
ubizmo ubizmo is offline
New Member
Posts: 384
 
Plan: mumble
Stats: 273/230/200 Male 73 inches
BF:yup
Progress: 59%
Location: Philadelphia, USA
Default

I've lost ten pounds in less than a week. Virtually all of that is water, of course, but even so, it indicates that the diet is doing what low-carb diets are supposed to do. I wrote in my journal that in some ways this diet is reminiscent of the Zone, but without the tight control of fats.

Clearly, what was blocking my progress on zero carb and other low-carb approaches, this time around, was overindulgence in protein, due to following the "unlimited meat" principle. There was a time when that worked for me, but that time is past.

Ubizmo
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  #90   ^
Old Thu, Aug-26-10, 22:27
algts's Avatar
algts algts is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,036
 
Plan: Primal-ish
Stats: 212/181/150 Female 64"
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Northwest USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverEm
I hope it's all right to post this link:

http://translate.google.com/transla...late.google.com

The translator works inconsistently, and sometimes writes very strange things. Nevertheless, I occasionally try to get through a bit more.

It's been easier to read Hyperlipid and search for Peter's blog posts and comments on Dr. K's diet and work.

I have also been reading a little over there. It is hard to understand a lot of it! Have you posted or tried to register? I didn't have luck with that. I let someone borrow my Homo Optimus book and just got it back yesterday, and have been reading it again.
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