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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Jan-22-02, 10:36
tomjackson tomjackson is offline
New Member
Posts: 14
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 230/230/150
BF:
Progress:
Default Warning!!

Please read this carefully!

I have been on the Atkins diet since December 27. I just got back the results of my first post-Atkins blood tests. The results were very bad. Good cholesterol stayed about the same but bad cholesterol jumped up by almost 20%, triglycerides were up just over 25%. These sorts of large increases in just a short period of time is remarkable. I am now faced with taking Lipotor (spelling?) to try to reverse the effects of Atkins.

Obviously, I am getting off Atkins immediately. If you are on this diet, please make sure you get blood tests done every few months. Losing weight is not worth having your blood turn into fatty sludge.

To be fair, the GP who looked at the test results did say that he has seen mixed reactions from Atkins. Some people can handle Atkins without problems. But he has also seen many who can not. High cholesterol and triglycerides are "silent", you don't feel any different until the stroke or heart attack occurs.

Get those blood tests and make sure!!!

Just as a note, this online community is one of the best I've seen. The help and support provided to each other is first rate. I'll miss being here. Good luck, y'all!
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Jan-22-02, 11:04
razzle razzle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,193
 
Plan: mostly paleo
Stats: //
BF:also don't care
Progress: 100%
Location: West Coast, USA
Default

best of luck, tom!

and good advice--I'm one of the ones whose blood panels improved tremendously, but I'm also going to keep getting tested for cholesterol, liver and kidney function. I've read the number of people whose cholesterol/tri's rise with LC may be as high as 1 in 6, so your situation is clearly not rare.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Jan-22-02, 11:33
Elihnig's Avatar
Elihnig Elihnig is offline
Don't dream it be it
Posts: 5,735
 
Plan: Low Carb
Stats: 292.4/272.0/165 Female 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 16%
Location: Maine
Default Arachidonic Acid

Perhaps you are one of those people with a sensitivity to arachidonic acid found in red meat and egg yolks. That would account for your raised cholosterol levels. Try a search for that, or read Protein Power to find out more about that.

Elihnig
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jan-24-02, 20:54
Kent's Avatar
Kent Kent is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 356
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 256/220/215 Male 78 inches
BF:36/28/20
Progress: 88%
Location: Colorado
Default

Frankly TomJackson, I just don't believe you. What was your cholesterol readings on December 26th, the day before you started on Atkins? You didn't give a baseline date.

My triglycerides plunged 57% from 217 to 92 in only 4 months on Atkins and my HDL skyrocked 57% from 35 to 55. I lost 40 pounds and my blood pressure dropped back to normal. I feel awesome.

If you really are serious, and I am very suspicious that you are not, follow the Atkins' diet to the letter for several months.

Kent

Last edited by Kent : Thu, Jan-24-02 at 21:42.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Jan-25-02, 01:29
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 37,202
 
Plan: LC paleo/ancestral
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
Default

Kent, sometimes it happens that a person starts with low-carbing, and something happens to make them change their mind. This member is obviously concerned about his cholesterol readings, and is being followed by his physician.

Disagreeing with someone's opinions is one thing, but a judgement of their sincerity or lack thereof is not helpful, nor is it in keeping with the spirit of our support community. It would be better instead to offer our own success as an example, or to offer some suggestions as to what might be the problem, or just to offer encouragement.

Doreen
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Jan-25-02, 01:47
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 37,202
 
Plan: LC paleo/ancestral
Stats: 241/188/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
Default

To tomjackson .. hang in there. There are explanations as to what happened. First did you fast for 12 hrs. prior to the test (but had water of course)? No caffeine and no smoking??

As well, in Protein Power, the Drs. Eades explain how someone following the diet exactly could experience similar to you:
Quote:
First of all, be aware that you are not doing anything wrong. ........ Cholesterol is a number that is composed of both good and bad fractions, therefore we don’t tend to track it nearly as close as more specific levels of HDL, triglycerides and LDL. LDL cholesterol is made up of different particles that vary from person to person. Depending on the type of particles that predominate, one is said to have either pattern A or pattern B. With pattern A, the LDL is light, fluffy, and relatively large. This pattern is actually thought to be beneficial. With pattern B, the molecule is heavy, dense, and relatively small. This pattern is thought to be detrimental. Pattern B is a partial consequence of excessively elevated triglycerides. When triglycerides go down after the Protein Power Plan has been adopted, a phenomenon called the "beta shift" occurs where LDL is transformed into pattern A. So, paradoxically, even though the level of LDL appears to increase, the type of LDL that is being formed is usually much healthier. The difficult part is that the lab testing to determine your levels of LDL "A" and LDL "B" can only be done in a research laboratory with electrophoresis methods. While we cannot be 100% certain that this is what happened in your case, the research strongly supports this view.

The most important thing is to look at the overall picture. With the Protein Power approach we look at the triglyceride/HDL ratio as one of the best measurements of risk for heart disease. An upper limit of 5 is considered desirable, with anything over that indicating an increased risk. Some measures to help bring down your cholesterol and LDL levels are: stay on the plan (some people panic and feel that the plan is causing the opposite effect), take a "no-flush" niacin 500 mg 2-3 capsules per day, increase your fiber intake with perhaps psyllium seed powder-1-2 TBS mixed in water per day, and avoid excessive saturated fats and trans fats (fried foods and margarine.)
We have several members whose drs. have put them on a course of cholesterol-lowering drug, and they continue to low-carb with a few changes .. they eat less red meat and fatty meat, less egg yolks and less high fat dairy. They eat more skinless poultry, fish and other lean proteins. They use olive oil abundantly and eat more high-fiber vegetables.

All the best to you, and I hope the next set of blood tests show improvement.

Doreen
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Jan-25-02, 12:37
allisonm allisonm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 354
 
Plan: Atkins/PP
Stats: //
BF:
Progress: 50%
Default

Tom - I appreciate the cautionary note. I feel so great and have been so successful in overcoming a lifelong problem with hypoglycemia by eating a low-carb diet that I have just been assuming that it's good for me overall. I am guilty of not obeying the advice of Atkins and Eades; I have not had my cholesterol tested since I began. (But I do know that my blood pressure is way down.) Your advice is sound. Cholesterol is silent. I'll get this checked out soon. Thank you for the reminder.

Kent - Science is about observing nature and then developing theories to explain what has been observed. All evidence must be considered in testing a theory. You can't just throw out the evidence that doesn't support the theory.

In sciences like physics and mathematics results are reproducible 100% of the time. If you dropped a rock once and it did not fall, you would have to dismiss the current theories about gravity.

Biology is different. Results are not 100% reproducible; they are usually true. There are far too many factors influencing physiology to expect for everyone to have the same results from doing exactly the same thing. Metabolisms and genetics differ. We're not all the same.

What infuriates me about the medical community is that they refuse to acknowledge 30 years of scientific studies that show that insulin (created by consuming simple carbohydrates) causes many of the major ailments of modern society. Because the evidence doesn't support their current theories, they just dismiss the evidence! That's not science.

Don't be guilty of the same blind faith in low-carb theory. All evidence must be considered. There is no reason to disbelieve Tom. I would be very suspicious of peoples reported results if they all lined up identically. Biology doesn't work that way.

Allison
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Jan-25-02, 18:26
Kent's Avatar
Kent Kent is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 356
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 256/220/215 Male 78 inches
BF:36/28/20
Progress: 88%
Location: Colorado
Default

My comments are not directed to Tomjackson since he said he is leaving the Low-carb forum. I am directing my comment to new members or visitors reading about the low-carb diets. Tomjackson's comments are highly suspect as not being truthful. His title, "Warning" should raise a red flag immediately and his first line, "Please read this carefully!" make me question his motives even more. I see many of these same scare tactics in amazon.com book reviews given on Atkins, Protein Power and others. Their stories can easily be seen as outright lies.

Let's look at Tomjackson's information closely as he himself suggests.

1. He did not give his previous or his new cholesterol readings. He did not give values nor dates. I go to the DrWeil.com message board where the proponents of their low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet brag about having a total cholesterol reading in the 90's. They consider that the lower the cholesterol the better. They see cholesterol in any amount as some risk to health. Dr. Michael Eades and Dr. Mary Dan Eades point out in their book, Protein Power, that low cholesterol increases the risk of stroke from ruptured blood vessels. Dr. Mercola at www.mercola.com has a very low cholesterol himself and considers it to be a serious health risk. He tries desperately to keep it above 100.

2. Lets give Tomjackson the benefit of the doubt and assume he had high cholesterol and high triglycerides. He said he went on the Atkins diet December 27 and posted his message on January 22, less than 4 weeks. We know that cholesterol reports from the doctor can take about a week. So, actually, Tomjackson was on the Atkins' diet less than three weeks. Having total cholesterol jump 20% on any diet in three weeks is preposterous. These statements show that Tomjackson was up to a little mischief.

3. Tomjackson said he now faces taking Lipitor to "reverse the affects of Atkins." Another scare statement.

4. Tomjackson quoted his doctor as saying the Atkins' diet causes problems in some people. Now, having a AMA doctor say this is not only possible but expected. Hearing a doctor criticize the low-carb diet should be expected. But again, I believe Tomjackson was simply adding another scare remark to his story.

In summary, I don't believe Tomjackson and believe his entire story to be fiction placed on the forum because of his person agenda against the low-carb lifestyle. I urge new members and visitors to study the low-carb lifestyle carefully. This site has a tremendous amount of helpful information, personal examples and people with considerable experience to help. The low-carb lifestyle produces awesome health benefits and reverses many diseases. I know of no disease caused by the low-carb diet.

William Banting in his booklet of 1869 spoke of the hope he had that people would see the health benefits of the low-carb diet. Instead, he told of the false information spread about the diet and the predictions of his demise. Thing haven't changed much in 132 years. This booklet is must read and available to read online at this site.

Letter On Corpulence by William Banting - 1869

Another neat reference is a speech given by Dr. Ron Rosedale at the following:

Dr. Ron Rosedale - Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects 7/14/01

Nice try Tomjackson but it didn't work.

Kent

Last edited by Kent : Fri, Jan-25-02 at 18:38.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Jan-25-02, 18:56
Scotsman's Avatar
Scotsman Scotsman is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 52
 
Plan: Atkins/Paleolithic since Feb 2000
Stats: 218/190/182
BF:
Progress: 78%
Location: North Scotland
Default

Kent,

Way to go! I'm with you on your analysis of the post by tomjackson. Nice reply; fully reasoned and well presented.

Yours aye, Scotsman
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Jan-25-02, 19:18
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default

You have a point Kent.

Another missing piece of info. This thread was initially started in the "Newbies Questions" forums. Well, it wasn't a question, and it was related to cholestrol issues, so I moved it here where it belongs.

We've had users in the past come in here to "save" us from our "unhealthy FAD".

You might be interested in reading this thread:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...&threadid=30523

Needless to say, we always welcome naysayers, if they don't mind us asking them for their proof.

Wa'il
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Feb-07-02, 19:45
jgitzco jgitzco is offline
New Member
Posts: 18
 
Plan: zone, sort of
Stats: 212/208/160
BF:
Progress: 8%
Default Wow...

Wow, I was looking for this post to quote it for someone else here. I am amazed at the vitrolic response to someone who doesn't have a knee jerk positive response to Atkins. That is every bit as bad as people who dismiss low carb without thinking.

OK Kent, let's take a look at your points one by one:

1. It is NOT up to tomjackson to provide you with numbers and dates. He did mention in other posts that he was extremely happy with the way Atkins reduced the glucose level in a very short time. I don't recall the numbers he posted back then but it went from extremely bad to almost normal in a short few weeks. That's hardly the reports of someone out to "get Atkins."

2. Wrong again. These blood test results come back in a day, sometimes the same day. Also, he states clearly that this was the first test post-Atkins, not the first test ever. These tests are normally done every three months. There is NO reason to assume that he is lying about the results.

3. Lipitor is the number one drug these days for lowering bad cholesterol. It is more likely than not that Lipitor would be prescribed.

4. Doctor's vary in their opinions. He chose to quote what his doctor said. You quote only from those doctors who agree with you (and are trying to sell books and other products). Again, not agreeing with what you want to believe is NOT the same as being wrong. This is not a religion, Atkins and Eades are not Gods. Get a grip on reality.

What I see as happening here is simple. You have a blind faith in low carb and are willing to attack anyone who might present evidence that it doesn't always work the way you despartely want it too. I like the idea that tomjackson was kind enough to relate his experience to others. You can reject it or accept it, but to attack him for it is just flat-out hateful and sad.

Was tomjackson too quick to get off low carb? Probably. But my father died from diabetes-related heart disease. It is a natural response to diabetes to believe your own doctor rather than an Atkins fan club or anyone else pushing cures. Diabetes affects different people in different ways. There are no magical cures for diabetes, Atkins included.

I myself got nowhere with Atkins induction. Rather than give it up as tomjackson did, I modified it to be much more like Zone. Now, I'm getting the results I was looking for. Those good results happened in a week. Does that make me an infidel and liar too?
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Mar-13-02, 18:09
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
Default

Hate to tell you this, but many lab tests for cholesterol DO take a week or more to make it back to the doctor's office and into your chart. Mine typically take 7-10 days. I also find it rather odd that a doctor would order a blood cholesterol test within a month of the previous test (unless the numbers that the poster was referring to are old and therefore not a good baseline to measure by) and odder still that anyone's cholesterol could possibly go up that much that quickly unless all they were eating was bacon and sausage. Having said that, my numbers DID initially go up (ALL of them, actually, HDL, LDL, and total cholesterol) but not nearly that much and it was 4 months after I started the diet that I was checked. The only thing that dropped dramatically were my triglycerides and my blood sugar, but again, that took more than a few weeks to normalize. I will be having them rechecked in a few weeks after nearly a year on the diet and we will see what happens. Even if I wind up taking Lipitor (which I will resist to the end!), I will stick with this WOE. The overall improvement in my health and the way that I feel is what matters and noone will be able to convince me that a way of eating that makes me feel and look this good is bad for me. Oh...and I've also lost 65 lbs....how bad could THAT be?
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Mar-14-02, 18:39
wbahn's Avatar
wbahn wbahn is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,651
 
Plan: Atkins-ish, post-WLS
Stats: 408.0/288.0/168.0 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 50%
Location: Southern Colorado, USA
Default

Hate to tell you this, but it doesn't matter if some, or even most, labs take a week, a month or a year to get the numbers back.


Kent's use of this fact in refuting tomjackson's assertions is only applicable if ALL test results require a minimum of a week to come back. As long as it is possible and practical to get your lab results back the same or next day then the argument loses all merit. And, it is very possible and very practical to get these result back the same or next day - it generally costs a bit more, but if someone is already worried about what is happening to their cholesterol levels, then they may very well be willing to pay the extra to get a rapid response.

As for a doctor ordering a second cholesterol screening after only four weeks, did tomjackson say that his doctor called him up out of the blue and requested that he have another blood screening done? No. If you told your doctor that you were starting a diet and wanted to have your blood work done at the beginning and again after four weeks, don't you think that your doctor would agree to his patient's request? If not, then what is magical about six weeks, which is when Dr. Atkins himself recommends that the bloodwork be redone?

Kent's other arguments are largely full of similar flaws of reasoning. For instance:

1) Tomjackson provided the most relavent information - he noted the changes in his HDL, LDL and TG. If you feel that the base data values would be more useful, then you should state that, explain why, and ask for it to be provided. It is hardly proof or even an indicator that someone is not being truthful because they provided the bottom line results. Would the truthfulness of someones assertions be questioned in a similar vain if they claimed that their values improved by that amount?

2) Three week versus four week issue already addressed. As for the 20% change in three weeks being preposterous, upon what is that based. Atkins in his book claims that the average drop in TG measurements after six weeks is 39%. If that fell uniformly, that would be 20% in three weeks. My total cholesterol (based on a home test kit that doesn't give breakdowns) went from 201 to 153 in four weeks. That's 24% in four weeks. Lots of other people have seen 25% moves in the first month. Are they all liers?

3) If you tried an approach, and saw your numbers deteriorate significantly, wouldn't you consider whatever steps were taken to be for the purpose of undoing the bad effects of that approach? What's so unreasonable about that?

4) This is actually one of the classic fallacies of debate. You agree that it is completely reasonable for a doctor to say it tomjackson, but then, based only on your desire that it not be the case, claim that this somehow proves that he didn't say it and that tomjackson is lying and through this out as a scare tactic.


Do I think that tomjackson has been too quick to examine his circumstances and fully understand his situation. Yes, especially if he didn't explore the type of LDL that went up. Do I think that tomjackson is unreasonable in issuing his warning? Not at all.
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Mar-14-02, 19:42
starlite starlite is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 62
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 165/145/130
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: USA
Default

Wow..quite the discussion here - couldn't resist adding my 2-cents...

I just think we all need to remember that everyone is so different genetically than others that every human body may respond to a diet differently than someone elses, you know? I don't think any one person should try to force any other person into a specific diet if said person isn't interested in it...

I mean, we should respect all manners of diets -can you imagine what vegetarians would say in this forum!!??????? They would hate all the talk of eating meat and all...but they have that right just as we have our right. The important thing is that we all take individual responsibilty for our health and well being, get our check ups and learn what is best for our individual body..

As for that whatever it was someone else posted that someone put up a link to about "why diet" yada, yada yada...what a fool! LOL Teasing - but it was silly.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Mar-14-02, 19:46
starlite starlite is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 62
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 165/145/130
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: USA
Default

I just remembered something - a new community went up on MSN and there's a "Diet Debate" message board. I guess it's so new there's only a handful of members - I received an invitation and have been considering joining, but some of you that enjoy debating, maybe you would want to check it out?
Diets, Diets, DIETS
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