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  #181   ^
Old Sat, Sep-27-03, 12:21
gymeejet gymeejet is offline
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well at least frederick does not rationalize. like i have said many times, meat-eaters eat meat mainly because they like the taste. and then most make all sorts of silly rationalizations.

it is not our right to take the life of another. there is no argument against this.

i would truly like to see the scenario that i have mentioned before. that is that some more powerful entity chose to eat those humans who engage in the process of eating meat, giving them the same silly rationalizations that today's meat-eaters give. they would begin to believe very differently. like the old saying goes about there is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole. sometimes we just need to be forced into a situation before we are able to become enlightened enough to make the correct choices.

meat is not necessary for life. i have not eaten for over 25 years, and am tremendously healthy.
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  #182   ^
Old Sat, Sep-27-03, 13:50
Kestrel Kestrel is offline
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There is the right to take a life; its called a food chain. Its part of nature and the world. Like other carnivores - or omnivores, man exists usually at the top of the chain. Unless, of course, he meets another, more capable apex predator under the wrong conditions. So man sometimes becomes dinner. Seems pretty natural to me.
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  #183   ^
Old Sat, Sep-27-03, 14:06
Kestrel Kestrel is offline
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Got interrupted trying to finish the previous post:

As to food chain, I think thats where someone penned the phrase: sometimes you get the bear, sometimes it gets you...

Anyway, as long as people are free to eat the way they wish, without demanding adherance by others, then choose your poison.
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  #184   ^
Old Tue, Oct-21-03, 20:43
guitarguy guitarguy is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 230/218/165 Male 5'10"
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Whenever we eat, something has to die.

I live in a very rural part of the country, Middleofnowhere, VT. My wife and I have always tried to be as self sufficient as possible. We raise a huge garden, 50 chickens, (one per week, sorta) and two pigs per year. This year we are raising 10 turkeys as well. A friend raises beef for us. Our feeling is that if we are going to eat meat, we want to know where it comes from. I feel that eating meat is necessary for our health, so I try to eat the best meat I can. I also wanted my children to know that meat doesn't just come from the grocery store. We do butcher our own meat, and why is that yucky? We live in a culture wher people our happy to eat what they eat, but don't really want to know where it comes from. Just look at the way meat is packaged. No blood is visible, because consumers don't want that. Special sponges are placed in each package so that we have no evidence that it was once a living thing. My thought is that if you are going to eat meat, know where it came from. Humans started as hunter-gatherers. We didn't eat meat all the time, but when an animal was killed it's all the tribe ate for as long as it lasted. Then they "grazed" until the next kill came along. This is the way we have survived for most of the time humans have been on earth. In the grand scheme of things, we haven't been eating processed foods and sugars for very much of the time we have been on earth. The human body, in my opinion, has not evolved far enough to eat all this junk, in my opinion. Our bodies are designed to eat pure meat, veggies, and animal fat. I'm sorry, but humans are the ones designated to be on the top of the food chain, and the other animals and plants are here, so we eat them. There is no other reason for all these creatures to be here. We do what we do. If nobody ate animals, where would we be? Overun! Just wanted to put in my 2 cents.
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  #185   ^
Old Mon, Nov-10-03, 11:53
komireds komireds is offline
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Ok, I know this post has been lying dormant for a while, but I've been reading it over after the fact and I feel compelled to comment.

I can't help but wonder why there is so much hostility between the meat eating and vegetarian camps. I know it's an intense topic for some, but why the insults? As a former vegetarian who switched to meat for health reasons, I look forward to open, intelligent debate about the moral and ethical implications of meat eating. Instead, certain meat eaters call vegetatians "fruit cakes" and claim that their children should be taken away! And the veggies get so bent out of shape that they seem to be closing their minds to any meat eating arguments. It makes me think that both camps are puposfully trying to be obtuse.

And once someone posts a website that justifies meat eating through biblical passages, I am just so done! C'mon folks! Give me something better than that!
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  #186   ^
Old Tue, Nov-11-03, 16:59
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gotbeer gotbeer is offline
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Thanks for the chance to renew this thread, komireds.

I myself despair of "intelligent" debate regarding morals and ethics, because I think that morals and ethics are ultimately based on emotions rather than intellect, despite all efforts to show the contrary. Hence, all debate on ethics becomes emotional because it has to: there is no real objective reason at the core of ethics, just disgust at "evil" things and delight at "good" things. It is thus no wonder that people flail about wishing for some other more respectable foundation for their ethics, grasping at ideas from nature, or religious scripture, or science, or notions of divine authority, or culture, or whatever. Innate or inculcated human disgust/delight is a much better explanation of the origin of ethical precepts than any of those.

How does the name calling start? Quite naturally and normally: rhazz claimed repeatedly that her vegginess was about avoiding cruelty, period - meaning that she was calling meat-eating and meat-eaters cruel and immoral, both literally and by implication. I noted that her stance on intestinal length, etc., mimicked word-for-word that of a particular religious group that she (not I) called a "fruity cult", making me a name-caller by her proxy. Others may have noted that meat is essential - not optional, ESSENTIAL - for brain development, and that some versions of vegetarianism have been linked to childhood disease, starvation, and death - hence, the dual implications 1) that vegetarians are mentally off, and 2) that their children would be better off elsewhere. The legitimate issues of this debate - cruelty, religious rationalizations, mental development, childhood nutrition, etc, are so incendiary that any mention of them in an open forum, on an emotional issue, MUST lead to name-calling because they ARE name-calling.

Both camps do seem to be obtuse, but that is because they are both wrestling with a horrible conundrum: to justify logically their own emotionally-driven eating behavior. (It's called "being human".) Just as religion is the human attempt to abide with the painful awareness that one day we will die, so is this eat-ligion debate a human attempt to abide with the knowledge that what we must eat causes harm to other living things (plant or animal) that we hold in awe and respect.

In the context of this anguish, the anger and name-calling are not surprising - only the lack of them would be.

The only real question is this: does the veal taste better than the guilt feels? Depends on one's tastes and feelings, I guess.
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  #187   ^
Old Sat, Jan-17-04, 21:29
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Nibby Nibby is offline
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I was cruising through the threads and found this intresting one and wanted to comment.....

I grew up on a farm and we raised chickens for the eggs, a few cows a year for our beef and lots of pigs which we sold and slaughtered. Honestly we had the slaughtering done for us because we didn't have the facilities for it. I was quit young at the time and there came a point where I realized where our meat was coming from.
Everyone around us also hunted deer and I was always ready to jump on my soapbox and preach how bad hunting deer was but as I got older the reality of natural predators killing deer for food was no more. Maybe a handful at the most left to cull the herds. Hunting is a necessity to keep the deer population from starving in the harsh winters. I don't know ANYONE stupid enough to run into a deer with thier car or truck so they can get free meat! Someone had used that as an example and that would be silly. I don't doubt someone has put thier life and limb in danger plus the cost of trashing thier truck or car to smash a deer but if someone is that stupid to kill themselves doing that well........it bolsters up the gene pool right?:-)
Right now in our area we have CWD (cronic wasting disease) in the deer population and they are encouraging hunting to keep the CWD from speading.
I'm against any fur trapping and think its sickening and also wearing fur, raising an animal for someones vanity.
In a cow for example its all utilized, leather, meat, bones, hooves, ears etc etc and there really isn't much waste. I have a problem with some of the butching practices..........wow I'm just torn on some points of the animal issue.
Honestly I enjoy eating meat, my cholesterol etc has actually gone way down since LCing and as for the constipation issue some people have ,EAT YOUR VEGGIES! There are lots of veggies so high in fiber they have little effect on your carb count and *ahem* keep the plumbing moving.
Spinich is a prime example!
I don't care if someone is a vegan etc BUT I have a problem with a child being restricted of meat eating against thier wishes even if the parents don't eat meat. I also have a problem with people not allowing thier pets or companion animals to not eat food with meat products in it.
I think you can be pro animal and still eat meat. If you are against animal experimentation, fur trapping and fur farms, animal exploitation,
volunteer at the ASPCA and treat your pets like your kids but you still eat meat daily and your husband and son hunt deer are you "bad" and anti-animal?
In the same token the person that doesn't eat meat, are they "freaky" and "weird" because they choose not to eat it?
I don't have enough time in my life to worry about if other people do or don't but its an intresting topic. Eat your veggies, drink lots of water and and for the rest fill in the blanks with the foods you like.
Nuff of my prattling on here......
Nibby
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