I think there is a big difference between the sexes and a female should not train like a guy. And if they did, they would not get the same results. Am I wrong? If I am, why? And I mean natural lifting without added hormones.

This website seems to support what I say.

http://www.superiormuscle.com/showthread/t-10133.html

to me, that article by Eliza completely refutes any differences in *training plans (e.g sets/reps/wts)* that are based solely on gender. it makes the point that timing around hormonal cycles could be used to optimize gains, and recognizes some biomechanical differences that might be gender specific (though not necessarily in all individuals). and of couse it recognizes differences in hormone levels between the genders and how that will ultimately effect the abilty to pack on muscle mass. This is not that different than recognizing that tall people with long arms and long legs will have different mechanics while benching & deadlifting than those with short arms and short legs.

The basic prescripts for training to gain strength, or power, or speed-strength, or muscular endurance, or hypertrophy are not gender specific. And to take some sound information like Eliza's and other sound bytes found here and there on the web and transform it into misogynistic trash (as I've seen others do, not you) such as "women shouldn't use heavy weights" or "women should only use high reps with low weights" is just wrong. And just as bad is the myth that women shouldn't lift heavy cuz they'll get HUGE - women aren't going to get huge, just strong and healthy.

Why should a woman train differently? Our hormonal makeup will not allow the average woman to get anywhere near the same results as a man in terms of muscle mass. However, that does not mean that we should not strive to reach our goals or potential. If I want shapely legs and glutes - I've got to hit them really hard and build muscle. If I want to be strong, I've got to grunt and sweat with chinups and weights as heavy as I can go - not do endless reps with light weights to "feel the burn" and tone and "sculpt" those muscles. If a woman who trains hard has a low enough bodyfat she will be defined, and if it is extremely low she may lose some feminine appeal.. but it is difficult to get to bodyfat levels that low.


Obviously different goals call for different methods. If a woman really doesn't care about strength or the firmness and shape of her biceps or back and all she wants is a small butt with thin legs - maybe it doesn't matter if she just diets and does cardio, with some light leg training. I personally love the look of well developed muscles on a woman, I think it gives her such a beautiful shape. But that is no different than a rock climber training differently from a sprinter.

I will say though, that the intensity of my own training will vary thoughout the month, where it might not for a guy. During a certain week I am tired, and easily fatigued, in pain and bloated. My body needs more rest and it gets it.

However, in order for me to answer the "why" question properly.. what do you consider "training like a guy" and what would be "training the way a woman should"

Just so that in my answer I'm not making assumptions

Thank you for not taking my question the wrong way and I appreciate your answers. I know how to train as a guy, but am wondering what are the differences, if any, for a woman with the same goals as a guy.

For example both lifters want to increase muscle size and strength to aid in weight loss while doing Atkins. Are there any differences in each other's workout? Other than the obvious lighter weights for the girl, differences like less sets, rep range, rest time, workouts per week, stuff like that.

In other words, can you create a generic workout without thought of gender, and have a man and a woman with the same goals follow it exactly side by side? Or do some small allowances have to be made because of their natural differences?

no differences in training method are needed. I've seen 1 reference to a study that might have made a case for women doing 1-2 more reps at any level to make comparable gains. e.g. if the program for strength calls for 6 sets of 4 reps, a woman might do 6 sets of 5 reps (or 5X5). If the program calls for 3 x 6-8 a woman might do 3X8 rather than 3X6. If the 6 X 4 regime calls for using 85% of 1RM. since she is doing 30 (6X5) reps instead of 24 reps she might use only 80% 1RM to make the volume required. Or go to 5X5 to keep reps about the same (25 vs 24) and still use 85%.
But the basic - low rep, high wt for strength is still the same formula. and that was just one study that suggested to incr by 1 or 2 reps/set.

for general usage - yes, same routine, side-by-side, each at same % of 1RM. So if I can bench 200# (F) and you bench 150#, then if we both work at 80%, I work with 160# and you work with 120#, for 3X5 or whatever is called for. Same rest intervals, same tempo, same workouts per week.

Thank you.

I ran a quick medline search and found these abstracts that might be of some interest:
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Age and gender responses to strength training and detraining.
Lemmer JT, Hurlbut DE, Martel GF, Tracy BL, Ivey FM, Metter EJ, Fozard JL, Fleg JL, Hurley BF
Med Sci Sports Exerc 2000 Aug 32:1505-12

Abstract
PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of age and gender on the strength response to strength training (ST) and detraining. METHODS: Eighteen young (20-30 yr) and 23 older (65-75 yr) men and women had their one-repetition maximum (1 RM) and isokinetic strength measured before and after 9 wk of unilateral knee extension ST (3 d x wk(-1)) and 31 wk of detraining. RESULTS: The young subjects demonstrated a significantly greater (P < 0.05) increase in 1 RM strength (34+/-3%; 73+/-5 vs 97+/-6 kg; P < 0.01) than the older subjects (28+/-3%; 60+/-4 vs 76+/-5 kg, P < 0.01). There were no significant differences in strength gains between men and women in either age group with 9 wk of ST or in strength losses with 31 wk of detraining. Young men and women experienced an 8+/-2% decline in 1 RM strength after 31 wk of detraining (97+/-6 vs 89+/-6 kg, P < 0.05). This decline was significantly less than the 14+/-2% decline in the older men and women (76+/-5 vs 65+/-4 kg, P < 0.05). This strength loss occurred primarily between 12 and 31 wk of detraining with a 6+/-2% and 13+/-2% decrease in the young and older subjects, respectively, during this period. DISCUSSION: These results demonstrate that changes in 1 RM strength in response to both ST and detraining are affected by age. However, ST-induced increases in muscular strength appear to be maintained equally well in young and older men and women during 12 wk of detraining and are maintained above baseline levels even after 31 wk of detraining in young men, young women, and older men.


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Muscle size responses to strength training in young and older men and women.
Roth SM, Ivey FM, Martel GF, Lemmer JT, Hurlbut DE, Siegel EL, Metter EJ, Fleg JL, Fozard JL, Kostek MC, Wernick DM, Hurley BF
J Am Geriatr Soc 2001 Nov 49:1428-33

Abstract
OBJECTIVES: To examine the possible influences of age and gender on muscle volume responses to strength training (ST). DESIGN: Prospective intervention study. SETTING: University of Maryland Exercise Science and Wellness Research Laboratories. PARTICIPANTS: Eight young men (age 20-30 years), six young women (age 20-30 years), nine older men (age 65-75 years), and ten older women (age 65-75 years). INTERVENTION: A 6-month whole-body ST program that exercised all major muscle groups of the upper and lower body 3 days/week. MEASUREMENTS: Thigh and quadriceps muscle volumes and mid-thigh muscle cross-sectional area (CSA) were assessed by magnetic resonance imaging before and after the ST program. RESULTS: Thigh and quadriceps muscle volume increased significantly in all age and gender groups as a result of ST (P < .001), with no significant differences between the groups. Modest correlations were observed between both the change in quadriceps versus the change in total thigh muscle volume (r = 0.65; P < .001) and the change in thigh muscle volume versus the change in mid-thigh CSA (r = 0.76, P < .001). CONCLUSIONS: The results indicate that neither age nor gender affects muscle volume response to whole-body ST. Muscle volume, rather than muscle CSA, is recommended for studying muscle mass responses to ST.

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Muscle quality. II. Effects Of strength training in 65- to 75-yr-old men and women.
Tracy BL, Ivey FM, Hurlbut D, Martel GF, Lemmer JT, Siegel EL, Metter EJ, Fozard JL, Fleg JL, Hurley BF
J Appl Physiol 1999 Jan 86:195-201

Abstract
To determine the effects of strength training (ST) on muscle quality (MQ, strength/muscle volume of the trained muscle group), 12 healthy older men (69 +/- 3 yr, range 65-75 yr) and 11 healthy older women (68 +/- 3 yr, range 65-73 yr) were studied before and after a unilateral leg ST program. After a warm-up set, four sets of heavy-resistance knee extensor ST exercise were performed 3 days/wk for 9 wk on the Keiser K-300 leg extension machine. The men exhibited greater absolute increases in the knee extension one-repetition maximum (1-RM) strength test (75 +/- 2 and 94 +/- 3 kg before and after training, respectively) and in quadriceps muscle volume measured by magnetic resonance imaging (1,753 +/- 44 and 1, 955 +/- 43 cm3) than the women (42 +/- 2 and 55 +/- 3 kg for the 1-RM test and 1,125 +/- 53 vs. 1,261 +/- 65 cm3 for quadriceps muscle volume before and after training, respectively, in women; both P < 0.05). However, percent increases were similar for men and women in the 1-RM test (27 and 29% for men and women, respectively), muscle volume (12% for both), and MQ (14 and 16% for men and women, respectively). Significant increases in MQ were observed in both groups in the trained leg (both P < 0.05) and in the 1-RM test for the untrained leg (both P < 0.05), but no significant differences were observed between groups, suggesting neuromuscular adaptations in both gender groups. Thus, although older men appear to have a greater capacity for absolute strength and muscle mass gains than older women in response to ST, the relative contribution of neuromuscular and hypertrophic factors to the increase in strength appears to be similar between genders.

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Here is an article at t-mag that talks about the slightly >#reps, >#sets, <intensity (%RM) for women
a little more than 1/2 way down is a chart illustrating these recommendations.
http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/254fun.jsp

My short but sweet answer is: Yes, they should/can.

That is to say that they should lift with as much intensity as they can muster to get the benefits of their program ... whatever that may be.

As for "lifting like a guy" and "lifting like a woman", I think instead of thinking along gender lines, you should think along goal oritented lines.

hmmm...the artical quotes:

Other than hormonal, postural and reproductive issues,
the physical differences between men and women are not
significant enough that women should train differently
than men.

So according to your artical...not really. There should just be some adjustments to accomodate possible specific weaknesses/problem areas.

Because I've trained with really heavy weights, and most women do not, I thought that there must be other major differences too. I really only saw that aspect without looking at other issues. I understand the differences and similarities better now and I can see where my thinking was wrong. I sort of saw what I wanted to see without seeing it all.

On the other hand, in many regards, women have different issues than guys to focus on during their training.

Thank you all for your input. And thanks for not beating me up too much because I didn't understand it too well. My intentions were to learn more about this, not to find fault or criticize.

Heavy is relative. Just because I lift less than TrainerDan, doesn't mean I'm not using the progressive overload principle. That doesn't mean I should be using 12 reps if he does 5 and avoiding some exercises entirely, etc.

Here's another way to think of it:

Let's say there's a man with 150 lbs of lean mass and he does 15 lb curls. He is doing the same amount of lifting per lb of lean mass as a woman with 100 lbs lean mass doing 10 lb curls. Lighter weight, but no proportional difference, and the analogy holds even if both are men or both are women. Now, because muscle mass is distributed differently on men than on women, you will see the common variations such as men having more upper body strength than women even accounting for lean mass differences. Conversely, women distribute more muscle in the their lower body, so they often seem surprisingly strong when it comes to legwork.

Some of the reasons many women appear to train so differently (lower weight, reps til boredom sets in) are that either the women themselves are wrongly afraid of 'bulking up', the wrongly believe that they can't do more, or misguided trainers, magazines etc actually tell them to do lesser workouts.

I personally 'lift like a guy.' I work up a sweat, make funny faces and push hard for failure. My upper body is 'wussy' compared to a lot of the guys at the gym, but my lower kicks a$$. Most of the guys can't do what I do on things like leg press and calf press.

Personally, I think it comes down to taste and goals. I *like* intense weight training, but aerobic exercise bores me to screaming. I do am cardio 3-4 times a week, but I do intervals, and even then I don't like it. I also want to add as much muscle as I can because I know it will have the fastest and most efficient effect on my metabolism.

Cheers!

Friday

I agree with you, it's all a matter of perspective. There is a lot of good information but is up to us to understand it. I know there are many very good theories out there, but I also like to think we can tailor and change workouts to suit ourselves. Kind of like thinking outside the box. I do that now with my workouts. I will try something unconventional outside of the standard text just to see if it works for me as an individual.

This is a subject that's on the bodybuilding pages all the time. IMO women should not train any differently than men. There is no difference whatsoever between the way I train and the way my training partner (my father) trains except I use more weight . Heavy IS relative and that's a very good point as well. It's all about intensity! Lots of good points made above

And about joint instability, q-angle, bar discomfort, never been an issue. Sheesh that article thinks all women run around in high heels all day eh (they mention it several times)? And that's why we should train differently? hehehe...how far from true (for me at least) Ahh...this pumped me to go do my workout, thanks was an interesting thread!