My husband is allergic to many vegetables- some can even kill him! (Peanuts, for example). Vegetables can be as toxic as they are nutritious!

Never met anyone allergic to meat-- shellfish, yes, but not poultry, beef, pork or lamb (tastes not withstanding). There is probably someone out there, but I bet way more humans are allergic to plants/veggies/fruits.

Cheers!

An interesting if rather repetitive thread. Whilst I sure no one on this forum is suggesting that vegetables (or any carb source) are necessary for our survival, there is plenty evidence to suggest that we have been omnivores for millions of years, and we are therefore well adapted to eating vegetables and fruit so long as the carb count doesn't get too high (as it has since the adoption of agriculture).

As for this million year old habit being the result of a time when game 'got scarce' - first of all, when did this happen? I'm sure some of us are old enough (or if not our parents/grandparents are) to remember when a whole bunch of fish and game was much more plentiful than it is now. Early American explorer’s accounts of the buffalo/bison herds would suggest that it certainly wasn't scarce and that population pressures then certainly had little impact ... but the native hunter gatherers did exactly that ... they hunted and also gathered, and there is no indication that this was a new behaviour. Some game (eg salmon) would have been (then as it is now) seasonal just as the bounty of fruits and vegetation would have been, particularly for those HGs who were not nomadic (following the herd and/or moving between seasonal vegetation source locations) So in that sense, game would have 'got scarce' at certain times every year - which is all the more reason why through millions of years of this, we are so well adapted to being omnivores.

I think maybe it was The Bear who suggested that our omnivorous behaviour was a more recent behavioural change (although why we would have decided to abandon some foods and specialise in others (an evolutionary backward step one would have thought) has not been explained. Again, forgive me if I have this wrong – but I think The Bear went on to say that dairy products are OK – well I agree, but the point about dairy is that we have had MUCH less time to adapt to regular consumption of dairy products – estimates are approximately 6000 years with some populations much less than that of course. This is an indication that evolutionary change can be quite rapid as those populations who adopted dairy the earliest have much higher rates of lactose tolerance (and vice versa). But stating on one hand that dairy is fine because we have had plenty of time to adapt to it, while suggesting that vegetables should be off the menu because we haven’t similarly evolved to incorporate them into our diet makes no sense at all when we consider how much longer fruit and vegetable matter has been part of our diet.

I heard on a national geographic program that humans began to eat meat when they harnessed fire to cook it with - otherwise it was a waste of energy to sit and chew raw meat all day - what with using the energy to get the meat and chew it, you would have been better off eating fruits. Which I believe is what they said we did.
And the Australian Aboriginal peoples lived here for tens of thousands of years largely unchanged in diet.. and they ate yams, fruits, etc as well as meats. Women and children gathered, men hunted. We did a course on this in year 10 - Women actually supported the group with stable abounts of gathered foods, and the men added their game to that.

Anyway just wanted to add 2 cents, very interesting thread

You mean that direct and repeated implication that I am a liar and have commercial interests in my postings is ok, but requesting the accuser to desist is not?

Sorry about that, perhaps I am just a late comer and don't yet have defense rights.

I do not lie. My story is true and I am just trying to share my 47+ years of eating a very low carb diet with other people like my self who have a serious bodyfat problem.

I always expected to find rejection and denial, including intense and emotional arguments in favour of the accepted but untrue conception that humans evolved as omnivores. I did not expect to be called a liar and a fraud by someone who could not accept that I actually have been on this path as long as I have and found it myself by paying attention to stories told by a famous adventurer. What basis does someone have to go there?

There are many interviews I have given over the years and stories told about me which refer to my strict carnivorous habits.

I only know 3 people who have done the trip for more than a few months, and I do not expect many of the readers of this forum will even get to that place. I have therefore been careful to point out the deep social connection between food and culture- dietary carbs and eating behaviour is fixed in childhood, it is part of your permanent lifestyle. and requires great effort (call it 'will' if you like) to change.

For this reason it is not necessary to defend your diet by accusing me of perfidy, I already accept that you are not going to change, and that most likely all of you will regain the lost bodyfat restricting carbs has brought you. Those who are only very slowly losing fat or have stopped losing probably need to lower the carbs to less than 5gm/day, which I term 'zero carbs'. A diet is not going to give you a normal body to keep, only a permanent change of lifestyle is. Which is the point of my telling you how I did it, that I did with out going past my max of 186 lbs (at 20 yrs. for only 6 mos), and have maintained a nice 6-12% bodyfat for 47 years (and counting). I would weigh 320 lbs or more and probably would not have lived to reach 50 if I had not changed my lifestyle.

I just felt that I needed to let people know that eatiing nothing but meat works, and not only that but it works fantastically well. You do not need science projects or extensive research into the past to understand what works, a person's life experiences should do it- Stefansson's did it for me. And don't forget all those Inuit...

The majority of Inuit live on land and eat mostly caribou and elk. They also will eat fish and few tribes hunt whales, but the marine animals are mostly taken during the warmer time of year- the tribes that live on or near the ocean will hunt seal by staking out the breathing holes, as do polar bears.

Polar bears, by the way, are the largest bears on the planet and are total carnivores, NOT omnivores. Some monkeys are herbivores.

Fire and napped-stone tools came along at about the same time, and it is this which allowed us to become carnivorous hunters and scavengers. But you don't need to go back into the past to find the truth, your body (not your mind) knows what is right and will respond to the right mix. What is real is what you and your body are like after following your path for more than 10 years- better- for more than forty.

If you ask an Aboriginal man what traditional food is, he will name all the animals he can hunt. If you ask him about other food, he will than tell you about the 'bush tucker' you can eat when you can't find any animals. Both men and women will hunt, but men rarely gather. The Aborigines are modern hunter-gatherers, their prehistory (dreamtime) is not known to science.

Hey there Bear,

Glad you are "back". Thought you got run off or something.

First off, you should try and not let Duparc get at you so much. I don't know what he is trippin' on, but who cares! The funny thing is, from his other posts, he seems to eat a lot like you do! With raw eating thrown in for good measure! You guys must be on some contest or something. Must be a "only if you are in your 70s" thing. Who knows?

So, what about this dairy thing? I understand the macro nutrient argument, and it is pretty obvious that it works. I know from past experience that the ONLY time I could bring my body fat % down to even half way acceptable levels was when I ate as you do. AS SOON as I started eating even the smallest amounts of carbs, right back up it went, and I couldn't get it to go back down, no matter how much I tried to "restrict" them. Only if I REALLY restricted them did I have any luck keeping off the body fat.

BTW... there are actually some people on this forum who do keep their carbs down around 5%. I don't know exactly what they eat, but I have run into them a few times. They have the same philosophy that you do about it.

Please just accept the fact that it doesn't matter who believes you. I for one do, and I don't think it is that miraculous. It is just that you had an upbringing that probably didn't include a lot of sweets or something. That made it easier for you to stay away from carbs. I have had a lot more luck sticking to "induction" (which is what most people here call this very low carb level) when including butter and cheese in my diet. Believing that cheese (or any dairy) was "not paleo", and therefore had "foreign proteins" (or something?), I would always try to avoid it. You should try to eat nothing but bison and salmon and deer meat, cooked really rare, with nothing with it (or on it) - just plain meat. Talk about boring! I have used that type of eating for up to two weeks and almost lost my mind!

Anyway, hope you can forget about Duparc (or anyone else that you feel is accusing you of being a liar or whatever) and just chill. Most everybody on this forum are really super nice and are not threatened or anything by what you are saying. Believe me, these folks are more open minded than anybody you will ever find on any other forum! Sorry you "got into it" with anyone.

Oh, by the way- it is not hard to eat raw meat, cut it small, mash it a bit in the mouth and swallow- Inuit eat a lot of their meat raw. Many of the women have worn down their teeth A(no cavities, however) from chewing on sandy hides when making clothes- it is not always convenient to cook the meat- it is easy to eat it. This is the reason that trichina is a problem in the north.

I don't think that trying to duplicate a diet like the paleolithic hunters ate is very wise and is certainly unnecessary, for one thing we haven't a clue as to what it was other than from the bones etc in the digs.

Dairy is a kind of meat, but whole milk is sugary- with lactose. Cheese, cream and butter are ok. So what if we eat the meat-foods which are available in modern times? Few of us are likely to go out and hunt for our daily 'crust' (as they say down here).

We ARE modern people, and we have special groups of people who will do the work of getting the meat and making it available to us. My eating plan is simple- I just eat meat- any meat. One to six meals a day, and I don't worry about it- it is all rather yummy. I don't like to cook things much so I don't eat pork, and turkey makes me feel sluggish for hours, so I avoid that one too. I eat a lot of fat, animal fat.

I used to take vitamins, but stopped years ago. After noticing some difficulties in certain weight lifting exercises, I had some tests done and was told by a very competent kinesiologist that I should not take synthetic vitamin supplements, because due to eating the quantity of meat I do, I was suffering from a vitamin B overdose, which was causing some muscle weaknesses.

'I (heart) animals, they're delicious'- .... from a much-loved bumper sticker.

So basically, you eat animal food. You are a "sophisticated carnivore"... so you get to eat eggs and dairy. Makes sense. I have always had a sneaking suspicion that this was a very healthy way of eating. I don't think it is normal to have a bunch of body fat (let alone excess insulin). I am going to go back to eating this way, which I have done on a few occasions (for only a few weeks at a time). I had the best skin, hair, digestive system, and lipid profiles of my life during those short-lived times. And I was eating as much animal fat as I could, just to "see what would happen". It was only fear of eating "unhealthy" (god, how we are brainwashed!) that caused me to retreat back to eating "poison" (as you call it). I was not even craving sugar, it was only that I thought I needed fruit and nuts, etc.

I doubt I will be able to stick to this WOE for 47+ years (or even 47+ days), but, unless I am having serious cravings for "poison", I will abstain, and instead get into making the tastiest dishes I can out of animal food (and spices). That is the best I can hope for in eating truly healthy. Thanks for all your input. You really have made a difference in my way of thinking. You have helped me fill in a lot of "missing pieces". I don't have a problem with trying this, as many here may.

BTW... I guess this WOE could be called the "antivegan diet".

Yah... I animals! I eat them every chance I get! (from a bumper sticker I once saw).

http://www.buschgardens.org/infoboo...ars/pbdiet.html

http://www.hww.ca/hww2.asp?cid=8&id=99

So even "true" carnivores occasionally eat some plant matter?

Yah... negligible amounts. So what?

Actually I wasn't run off, I was in hospital Tuesday/Wed for an operation to repair holes in my eardrums. I got the holes from grommets placed there to relieve blocked Eustachian tubes caused by radiation therapy in '04 for throat cancer- the cancer was killed- but not without some collateral damage. Tubes opened up after a few months, but the grommets did not 'fall out' as I was told they would. As a musician, I have been very upset over my hearing for a while, but I think this is going to work and I will get back what hearing I had, at least. Nothing can fix the roll-off that years of Grateful Dead did to me, of course. And... I used cotton wool in my ears most of the time.

We (the doctors, my son -a vet- and I) think the cancer remained in my neck due to my very low glucose turnover, since most cancers of this kind (stage 4a SCC/tonsil) metastase rapidly. SCC cells are very glucose avid. Another life plus from the zero-carb lifestyle. The specialist who supervised my treatment said my fitness level was very important and helped my recovery. I have to say, this kind of thing is not anything you ever want to undergo. One thing that was interesting was that the radiation makes it impossible to swallow anything, even water, so they wanted me to get aq tube put through my abdomen into my stomach a 'PEG" tube. I resisted and lost weight like crazy- I simply could not swallow enough of anything, even protein drinks with heavy cream, and had the tube put in. Then of course they wanted me to use a prepared liquid meal called Sustegen- carb based of course, which I refused.

I managed to get a nice food processor and made my regular meat and fat meals, turned them into a liquid, and squirted them in with a 60 ml syringe- Takes forever to get enough to eat that way, I can tell you. In the end, I still must make soup-like meals because a nerve was crushed by the tumour and half my throat does not contract to force solids into my esophagus. Nothing tastes the same either (garlic helps), but that is not as bad as not being able to simply chew up and swallow pieces of lovely rare steak. Not to complain, I like being alive and I don't have any kind of fixation on how I eat my food. Oysters are a love from my youth, and I can still chew them up and wash them down ok, So all is not lost.

They said it was very odd I should get this kind of cancer, it is usually a mark of smoking tobacco and drinking hard spirits. But I was exposed to years of heavy tobacco smoke during my days as a soundman- smokey bars and clubs, limos and venues- Garcia for one smoked Camels.

I smoked for a couple of years from about 11, but it made me feel shitty in the morning and I gave it away. I much prefer cannabis to alcohol, never liked hard liquor and gave away even having the odd glass of wine in '90 when I began lifting weights.

So what?

I was just under the impression that a "true" carnivore eats meat, and meat only, no vegetation. I'm not trying to be stupid or confrontational.....it's just theBear specifically said bears are "total carnivores". He makes this statement as fact, yet it goes against what *I* have learned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore

I just find this interesting. BTW, Dean, I actually think your Cat Theory has merit.

Bear, sorry to hear you were in hospital.

So do my cats!

I often refer to this theory as "survival of the cutest"!

I don't know whether polar bears ever eat any non-meat items, certainly Stefansson did not think they did, and the polar bear is considered an endangered species due to a reduction in prey availability. That some carnivores, especially the canids, the family to which all true bears belong (pandas are not bears but large members of the raccoon family) may eat some non-meat items does not mean they can digest them- and anyway, what does this line of pursuit have to do with what a human eats? I mentioned the polar bear only because one posting said bears were omnivores, but the polar bear is not an omnivore.

...I will answer my own question- it has nothing to do with it, it is simply someone expressing unconscious discomfort at the ideas I am promoting- socialisation strikes again.

The thing which makes humans unique is our society, and our culture. Animals also may have culture, like the Japanese monkeys who learn to wash their food in the ocean from each other and chimps learning to use simple tools from other chimps, and the most extreme, learning (human) sign language from another chimp- but in humans it completely overrides all our instinctive behaviour. The upside is so obvious I don't need to mention it, but the down side is that, like trying to do brain surgery on yourself, it is very hard to understand and change- it is written at too deep a level in our consciousness.

Bear,

Hope your hearing is back as it should be. Sorry about your throat.

Sorry to hear about your cancer Bear, hope you have totally beat it and will have many more years of happy hunting. If you are interested, there is a wonderful formula from the Objibwa Indians of Northern Ontario called Essiac. If you google it you will find a lot of interesting info about it. It can be taken with any medication and has been very successful at curing cancer over the years.

Am I detecting a contradiction in what you are saying Bear? Surely not; yet in your first post you mention about your long-term dietary effect on your body and of how you have a body of a 30 year old and that you're skin remains young and elastic; and now you say that you suffer from cancer. It does not sound from this distance that your diet has done you any good so, meantime, probably permanently, I'll give your dietary recommendations a very wide berth indeed. It would, however, be nice to know of the credentials that places you in the position of authority to relate in the manner that you do.

I did a quick Google search of polar bear's diet and found this (bolding mine).

Sorry to hear about your hospital visit Bear.

I have to say one thing though, I've been eating nothing but meat eggs and cheese for the last couple weeks (sorry Terra, don't miss the salads and broccoli one bit) and I feel like I'm losing weight even faster than the first time I did it in 1998. All in all I feel pretty damn good and energized as of late. If I had any doubts left about Bear's abhorrance of veggies they just disappeared.

Rob, I know what you mean. When I went one month eating that way, the body fat just FELL off of me... and I ate all I wanted! I am going to gradually get back to eating this way. I say gradually, cuz I have heard one can have problems if they transition too fast. But, I am convinced that this is the diet for me. If it works like it has in the past, and I can keep myself from questioning the need for veggies and fruit, I will continue as much as I can in eating this way. Perhaps it is because I am from northern European descent, but this diet does seem to be the one that my body is best suited to.

Duparc... please, let's not start this whole thing up again!

Boy... Did you guys 'rumble' at some Janis Joplin concert, way back when, or what?!!

That's funny... so did dane!

Ok... most animals can synthesize vitamin C. Humans can't. I don't believe C is available from meat sources. So... how is it proposed that human get their C?

Bear, could you please explain this? Thanks. And, I think you meant "antiscorbutic", right? What other antiscorbutic substances are there?

I found this on the web.

Anyone ever heard of this?

This make sense, considering many humans would not have had any dietary source of "vitamin" 'C' for much of their existence.

Is there any wonder as to why people are trying to find out what is appropriate nutrition for humans... based on what we evolved on, rather than what scientists (charlatans) tell (sell) us?!

Sorry to be the cynic, but that's always been my reason for trying to find this out!

Dude, he was the soundman for the Dead!

Duparc, you really need to "light up or leave it alone"!