no Bear, i bought a new scale is all!! my old scale weighed me at 11 lbs less than the new scale, so the only problem was that my starting weight was 11 lbs higher than i had thought, just to clarify!! I am having no problems losing weight. i have been on Atkins induction 2 weeks. i lost 8 lbs the first week and 4 lbs the second week! Besides, as i said i havent been eating the 3 cups of veggies. I have been eating between 0-2 cups per day! I think i will stick with 1 cup a day and see how it goes! I'll let you know!

hmm ...i havent seen anybody say that anywhere on this forum. i have a hard time believing that adding veggies will get someone out of a stall. I could see if someone was too low on their calories and their body thinks its starving and holds onto extra fat and puts them into a stall..then adding some calories could pull you out of a stall. maybe those veggies added enough calories to pull them out..especially if they made the veggies with butter!! just a thought!

way to go Rob!! your doing great!! Glad to hear the meat and dairy only is working for ya!

Just thought this was interesting.

Probably the MOST grueling athletic event there is... the Tour de France. And, Lance Armstrong is "the one" in that sport.

From this web page:

http://fittv.discovery.com/convergence/chasinglance/carmichael/carmichael.html

Q: What kinds of foods does Lance eat in preparation for such a race as the Tour de France? How much and often does he need to eat?

A: Lance follows a nutrition plan based on the ideas I presented in Chris Carmichael's Food for Fitness in 2004. Basically, we change the amount and balance of foods in his diet according to his progression through different activity levels and training intensities. As his training hours and intensity increase during the spring months, we add calories by increasing his carbohydrate intake. This is important because increased intensity means he's burning more carbohydrate per minute on the bike. The idea is to match his nutrition program to the demands of his training, thereby ensuring he has the fuel he needs for optimal performance, while avoiding excess calories from nutrients he isn't utilizing as heavily. Using this program, we've been able to avoid significant weight gain in the winter, which means weight loss goals don't interfere with his performance training in the spring. As the Tour de France approaches, his nutrition program moves from about 65 percent carbohydrate to 70 percent carbohydrate, and he'll consume about 13-14 percent of his calories from protein, and 16-17 percent from fat. In terms of foods, he loves pasta and also seeks whole grains like brown rice and oats, multigrain breads, and lots of vegetables. Protein sources include primarily eggs, fish, poultry, and low-fat dairy products like yogurt. Fat plays important roles in endurance athletics and health, so we don't massively cut his fat intake. Rather, Lance tries to stick with unsaturated fats from olive and canola oils, seeds, nuts, and fish. Several of recipes Lance likes are featured in my new book, Chris Carmichael's Fitness Cookbook, which hits shelves in July.

I just wonder how well he would have done on a LC/HF diet?

I wonder if there are others in that race that do LC/HF?

I had to laugh out loud when I read the comment TheBear made about turnips. I LOVE TURNIPS and they were never prepared at home when I was growing up. We were very poor and the only vegetable that took centre stage at home was potato.

This thread is immensely enjoyable because it's the first time I have "met" a person who eats mostly meat, some dairy and no vegetation and appears to be alive, kicking and mentally sharp at the age of 71 after doing it for 47 years (since Vilmar is dead and can't do interviews). And is obviously not as much of a tyrant as some people make him out to be if his wife is eating vegetation and bread and other fibrous matter.

Seems to me that he is tolerant of other opinions, even if he states plainly that they are a load of "you know what." Which means, you may state your opinion but that doesn't prevent me from saying, I don't agree.

And that's why we have these forums, to exchange ideas, toss about theories, etc. This is definitely a refreshing change from the "PETAMONGERS" and "RICE IS THE BEST FOOD IN THE WORLD" trolls.

Paleo, its a pretty well known fact from numerous studies that ELITE atheletes in ENDURANCE sports derive great benefit from carbs. For one, they have very little BF due to frequent and intense training. The only way to 'stock' up on their personal FAT stores is by eating carbs. However, its a very tricky metabolic feat and for the very best, requires a 'team' to manage and evaluate on a regular basis.

Your common over-weight FAT guy trying to ride a bike is going to boink. I liken that to a SUGAR CRASH and the fact that after the initial depletion of glycogen, his FAT metabolic system is out of shape and not able to properly respond to the new energy requirements. Not to mention, numerous other factors that may be impeding his chemical metabolism. Popping a sugar bar is not the answer for FAT guy. Training is.

WOW!!! Congrats Rob!!!

The World Cup-winning England Rugby Squad of 2003 owe their success to a low carb rather than high carb diet ~ and I would have said that their training is definitely intensive:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...873#post1576873

So... are carbs EVER used for fuel? Or are they just turned into fat, and then the fat is used for fuel? I was under the assumption that "carb loading" is all about filling up your glycogen stores to be used for fuel by your muscles. So, I guess this practice is total BS? Instead, is it that athletes "carb load" to fill up their fat stores... and then use the fat stores for fuel? And, why does Atkins say that you will switch from using carbs for fuel, to using fat for fuel? I am VERY confused at this point. Could anyone shed some light on this? Thanks!

When I backpack... should I be eating pemmican... or trail mix? And, if trail mix, then will the glucose in those raisins be immediately used for fuel by my muscle cells? Or will they have to be converted to fat stores FIRST... and then be used for fuel by my muscle cells. OR... will they be put into glycogen stores and THEN be used by my muscle cells for fuel. REALLY want to understand these metabolic pathways! What will my liver and pancreas be up to, guys?




So... are you saying they eat carbs to supply their fat stores, so they can then use their fat stores for fuel? Then, all this stuff about "carbs are the fuel for the body" is pure science fiction? And, if this is so, why would they not just use dietary fat, instead of their own fat stores?

Glycogen is used. Period. Its far more 'high-octane' than fat, hence the increased benefits to athletes. However, its a short duration energy and leaves a lot of waste in the muscle. Fat doesn't and is more efficient and cleaner fuel (not nearly the waste by-products left in the muscle) over the long run (endurance sports).

For fuel?

If this is what you believe, you and Bear must disagree on this.

This is what I have always been told. Glycogen stores are for quick energy for muscles... like to lift something real heavy real fast. Like for a javelin thrower, or a 100 meter sprinter. But, for longer duration exercise, like a 1000 meter run, fat was used. Bear DOES NOT agree with this. And, I have NEVER heard his logic before on this... or come to think about it, on a number of things!

That is so interesting about it being a "cleaner fuel". My nutrition teacher repeatedly said "using fat for fuel is like running your car on dirty gasoline"! Just the opposite POV! Bizarre!

I am looking for the study on non-depletion of glycogen with exercise. This study specifically showed no reduction in glycogen after intense exercise- that contention proved to be only an assumption, not based on data. The effect of 'hitting a wall' known to runners is due to carb loading and the accompanying reduction in endurance. Another study in the batch I have not located shows a tripling or more of exercise endurance in rats fed a zero carb diet versus those fed a normal rat-chow diet. Glycogen storage is stable in a person with sufficient fat intake.

Look, I am really not interested in going around and around about one person's fixation on diabetes etc. I am not a diabetic, which is not really a disease, but the result of consuming a high carb diet 24/7. I merely mentioned the lack of a need in a carnivore's body for insulin- in passing. As soon as I find the papers I will post the references. Runners who are fully keto-adapted burn fat from the first step they take and do not 'shift gears'. I assume many here know about Greg Ellis' work on low carbs and exercise. He sent me many of the metabolic papers I have. He is about as dedicated to this path as I am, but is not nearly as strict. Keto-adaptation on zero carbs should be complete in 3-4 weeks.

The truth about exercise is that muscles NEVER use carbs as fuel, only fat, so the process of 'burning carbs is only the process of converting them into fat, which puts a severe load on the body during exercise- eliminate the carbs and endurance skyrockets. (At the risk of offending a few, I must say that Atkins -conventional- contention about burning carbs for fuel is false, like many of his ideas. The rats in the paper I mentioned were tested by having them swim. They were trained and conditioned for a long time during he study, of course. Those on a standard diet never were able to swim much longer than a few hours, but the ones on the true zero carb high fat diet were still swimming after eight hours and the experimenter had to end the session- no telling how long they might have gone on. Thus marathoners and long distance bike riders are severely limiting themselves by carb loading.

High octane? Hardly.

Glycogen/glucose equal 4 cal/gm. Fat is 9 cal/gm. Alcohol is 7, and interferes with enzyme production in the liver. Glycogen is only used as a quick source of glucose to stabilise blood glucose and normally remains stable in the body. Only the brain and a few other tissues need or use any glucose, it is NOT an 'energy source' for skeletal muscles. Don't fret, I have the papers to support all this, and I hope they turn up soon. By the way, the conversion of glucose to fat is inefficient in calorie terms, it produces some heat as waste, about 0.5 to 1 cal worth. Thus, a sweet cool summer drink will actually heat your body, not cool it.

Rapid intense effort (anaerobic) uses ATP, which degrades with muscular contraction into ADP. ADP is reconverted into ATP by a mechanism fueled by fatty acids complexed with n-acetyl carnitine. No carbohydrate is involved. Aerobic activity is fueled the same way.

Why does it feel like I am going over the same ground again? Perhaps a few people have not read all my posts.

One ounce (~30gm) of pecans would have about 10-15 gms of carbohydrates, not 1 not 3. Nuts of all kinds are all nearly half or more carbs- the rest is vegetable oils and some plant protein. They are hard to digest, as well. Nuts are just energy-dense seeds, and seeds must have carbs to sprout.

No, my wife does not eat bread or any sugar, and only very small amounts of pasta- once in a while- or rice. Mostly she eats salads, and a few fruits (we live in the tropics after all). I would say not quite low carb, but very moderate. As noted, it is social conditioning that counts most in what we eat. I encourage her to reduce the carbs, and it is happening slowly. She was a practicing vegetarian when we met 21 years ago, but that did not last past our first dinner date. She asked for a bite of my steak, actually.

...The following is just my opinion, remember- you can be trained young to eat anything, and will then 'love' it. For example, Vegemite, a heavy, very salty, strong tasting concentrated yeast paste- a byproduct of the brewing industry, is eaten by Aussie kids (and adults), like the Yanks eat jam- on toast... Turnips taste, for lack of a better word, nasty- (along with mustard, collard and kale greens, and the cabbage family). I always wondered how they were ever considered edible in the first place- near starvation, I guess. Conditioning rules the palate.

Actually 1 oz of pecans (about 20 halves) is only 4 carbs or 1 net carb. I eat them to help with the bathroom difficulties that I have had w/ eating straight protein. I do not do dairy except for the occasional protein shake. I am sprinkling a bit of blue cheese on my burger tonight but that is the first cheese I have had in almost 3 months.

Pecan breakdown per 1 oz:
Calories:196
Carbs:4 g
Fiber:3 g
Fat:20 g
Protein:3 g

HTHs

I'm only basing this on my experiences with my grandkids when they were little, but if you had a plate of spaghetti and bunch of cut up pieces of steak the kids would always eat the meat first and then the spaghetti, if they would eat it at all. And it wouldn't matter what kind of meat either, chicken, beef, pork...or my current favorite, goat. And this is when they were about like 1.5 to 2.5years old.

I've always come to the conclusion that given the choice of carbs or meat, they go for the meat, EXCEPT when there's sugar involved, then they go for the sweet tooth.

Bathroom problems? You should not have this problem, you must be doing something wrong. The carnivore's diet totally eliminates constipation. I am never constipated unless I must take an opiate like codeine (tramadol is better- and not constipating) or eat too much cheese.

You cannot eat 'straight protein'- it is more than constipating, it is dangerously toxic. Dietary protein content should never go above 40 or so percent and 20% is quite a good percentage, even for a bodybuilder. The diet should include 60-80% fat. Calling any workable diet 'high protein' is misleading.

Coffee in excess can cause a loose bowel, and cheese, which is mostly casein (the basis for library paste) is VERY binding. Try increasing fat and lowering protein and cheese, or add coffee.

A 'protein shake' should be based on heavy cream. My first meal is 60 ml cream, 10 ml water, with three heaping tablespoons of protein powder (90% calcium caseinate, 6% ion exchange whey, 4% egg albumin). I buy all the ingredients in bulk and make up the mixture myself, as all the commercial mixes suck (it is way cheaper this way, too)- either they have soy in them, carbs, or way too much of some cloying synthetic sweetener, or they lack caseinate and thus are too quickly metabolised, thus ineffective. Whey is used up very rapidly- casein lasts for hours. Egg white balances the amino acid profile.

Goat is better than lamb

If you had read my post I said I eat 0 cheese. I eat straight protein and the way my body works it causes constipation. Oh well

How much fat do you eat?

Bear, I'm an absolute fan of yours. But on this..... you and I are partially correct. Check the Krebs cycle. Both Fat and Glycogen are used for fuel via 2 different pathways: Glycolysis & FaT via reactions called beta-oxidation. Glucose is converted to pyruvic acid which in turn is converted to acetyl coenzyme A - it then enters the Kreb Cycle. Fatty acids, through beta oxidation, are converted DIRECTLY to acetyl coenzyme A, which then enters the Kreb Cycle.

In the absence of oxygen (weight lifting - anaerobic exercise) pyruvate is converted to lactate, which leaves some funky waste behind, you know, the kind that hurts and takes time for your body to eliminate it....

sherry,
do you eat eggs? if so how many a day? also, how much fat do you eat? do you eat any butter,cream, mayo or oils at all?

The Krebs cycle is simply a description of the conversion path from glucose to fat, and not a metabolic energy source. Some of us genetic-obese may have difficulty in the step- oxidation of pyruvic acid- Macarness thought so.

"Turnips taste, for lack of a better word, nasty- (along with mustard, collard and kale greens, and the cabbage family). I always wondered how they were ever considered edible in the first place- near starvation, I guess. Conditioning rules the palate."


Bear, you're probably right. BUT, in my experience, if you put enough BUTTER on anything, it becomes halfway edible - popcorn?? lol.

I eat anywhere from 60-80% fat a day. I eat at least 2 eggs a day. No cheese, heavy cream, milk except for my shakes. Occasional butter. Some mayo but not lots and what I do eat I make myself.

Good, try my suggestion on coffee- I llke it with cream.

Basically, you should not suffer constipation on a zerocarb regime with a good balance of fat. Even Stefansson noted this.

MIlk is very carby (~10%) and can be constipating due to the casein, which turns into hard curd (cheese like) in an adult's stomach- perhaps this is your problem. Try making your shakes with diluted heavy cream instead.

Umm that is what I use... Also my coffee I use heavy cream but only 1/2 t a cup.

I am not the typical female though as I do have multiple health problems. I have had lupus for 3 years, diabetes 2 years, plus cancer. Currently I am feeling better then i have in years. I attribute it to my almost non-existent carbs..