Thanks, Dean. I think I agree, and that's probably why my test results were high -- ok amount of protein, but too low on fat.

So do you think 80 grams of protein is what I should shoot for? Or does it matter if I eat more protein than this, as long as I keep the fat % up around 70-80?

I feel like I'm over-thinking this whole thing.

You need to think about this, because I think it is NOT good to consume too much protein. On the other hand, you really cannot consume too much animal fat. Sounds really odd, given all the "fat phobia" in our society, but that is how mother nature made us. You say "ok amount of protein". You said you were doing 45% protein before. That is TOO MUCH protein (so it's NOT "ok"). It would be better for you to do 20% protein, than even 30%. I think you should aim for 20-30% protein, but try to keep it closer to 20%... and aim for 70-80% fat, but try to keep it closer to 80%. If anyone disagrees, please tell me why this is not good. IMO, this is the best advice on protein/fat requirements. I think half protein/half fat in weight will give you about a 30%/70% calorie mix.

From earlier posts of Bear's:Perhaps if one just aimed at eating half fat and half meat (by weight), then they would get the "correct" amounts (about 70%/30% calorie mix).

I think on an all animal food diet, one should be much more concerned with getting too much protein, and too little fat. So, basically, eat a LOT of fat, and you will error on the side of getting enough fat, while not getting too much protein.

deano,
What do you do to render fat?? Do you think a butcher will give me meat fat? what about tallow? how bought lard, where do i get it?

Just to let you know, i am on meat and eggs and fat as of today. I am going to try and follow what Bear eats. I hope after all these pages i know what i am doing! i am using heavy cream in my morning coffee. I will invest in some palm or macadamia oil and use it sparingly, since i cant afford it, but will still use olive oil sparingly also. Bear what is the reason you wont use olive oil, sorry if you already said, this thread is so long, i cant seem to remember everything. And yes, i only buy unsalted butter! What do you think of the Mrs. Dash spices Bear? They are ok to use because there is no salt in them and no carbs, right? I might have some questions that come up over the next week as i try this new WOE. I hope i can be successful.
karen

theBear,
you said to Buy only unsalted (sweet cream) butter. what about unsalted cultured butter?

Karen,

Read this thread

Basically, if you go to a meat counter (or processor) and ask for kidney suet from cows or bison, they should just give you this fat, since they throw TONS of it away every day! Then, just cut into small cubes (about 1"x1") and render in the oven or on the stove top. That thread will help you out a lot.

Tallow is rendered beef/bison fat. Lard is rendered pig fat.

120 gm/day protein is low but ok but very (480 cal) low in energy. With only 50% fat, you are only consuming around 1000 cal/ day, it is the most extreme starvation-style diet I have yet heard of. You do not need to limit your calories UNTIL YOU ARE QUITE LEAN- in fact the more fat you eat, the faster you lose excess bodyfat... You can go up to 2 gm/day per pound of body weight in protein- common practice amongst body builders. You need to increase your fat to 60% or more, 80% is a common meat diet amount. At 50% you are not getting a daily amount of calories anyway I am not sure of the cause of your high BUN, but it may be you are not dumping your gall bladder completely. You should be aware that gall stones are one of the results of insufficient fat in the diet. 2000 cal at 50% fat needs 250 gm protein to balance. At 80% fat 100 gms will suit. Do your maths. Normal energy requirement is 1800 to 2500 cal/day, more if you exercise. My ballet years saw me consuming 5000/day.

Look up the percentage of fat in fish to find the figures. Many fish if bought whole have fat masses in the body cavity- which is always discarded by the cleaner due to 'fat phobia'. Buy only fresh whole fish which have deep black, velvety, glistening eyes, never cloudy or dull.

Nutrients are lost when meat reaches 104F. This is bleu. The trick is to eat the meat as raw as possible and only cook the very outer layer at a high temp for the very minimum of time to give a flavour, warm the middle slightly and sterilise the cut exposed surface- meat is otherwise sterile if not cut and opened to the air. I do not think any slow method of cooking was used in ancient days- meat was hard to get, and was eaten as soon after the kill as possible. Any uneaten meat- cooked or raw spoiled quickly. Spoiled raw meat is still safe to eat, spoiled cooked meat is not.

Europeans culture (make sour intentionally) fresh cream and make unsalted butter from it, it tastes different and will not keep as well as unsalted sweet cream butter.

Geez, I've been a technical writer for more than 20 years, and find I'm not communicating here well at all.

Before: Averaging 1600 calories a day -- fat 104 grams (57%), protein 121 grams (31%), carbs 20 grams (5%). This is from Fitday, and it never adds up to 100%.

Now: Averaging 1950 calories a day -- fat 158 grams (72%), protein 96 grams (20%), carbs 12 grams (4%). Again, since these are averages, it doesn't add up right.

I know I want to shoot for 80% fat and 20% protein, but I was concerned that more than 120 grams of protein was too much, and that less than 80 grams of protein was too little. (The constant here is always shooting for 80% fat).

Bear, I guess you're saying I shouldn't worry about the AMOUNT of protein I eat, AS LONG AS I'm keeping the ratios around 80% fat, 20% protein. AND, I should probably be eating at least 2000 calories a day, huh?

(PS: Is this why I'm not losing anything right now? Too few calories and not enough fat?)

Thanks for responding. You've given us all a lot to think about, and I for one am thinking A LOT!

Carb intake and low fat is the most likely reason for no loss. I have seen many who cannot lose past a certain point on 20 gm carbs/day. I don't see this happening on 5 gm or less.

'...Thinking a lot'.... Yes.

I think the problem here is too much thinking, and not enough acting- trust your body, not your mind, it has no acculturation. It is totally unnecessary to weigh, measure or analyse your food while on an all-meat diet. I have never done so in all my 47 years on the path.

Stefansson gave us this simple rule:...Choose a nice, marbled steak (for instance) with at least a 1/2 inch thick rim (cover) of fat. Begin by eating more of the fat than lean and eat until you feel you are losing interest in the fat, or have eaten all of it, then finish up by eating as much lean as you like until 'full'- choose a large steak- over one pound. Save the uneaten meat, if any, for a snack or part of your next meal. Soon the right sized cut of meat will become quite clear. Forget about all this fussy measuring, it will just turn eating into a tiresome chore when it should be a simple and joyful event. Other carnivorous animals don't use scales to measure their food, and the Inuit certainly didn't. Trust your body, it knows.

You see, calories are not important if you are 'obese' or over-fat, the body has a 'normal' fat percentage it will drop down to all by itself. Only if you wish to go lower than your natural set-point will you need to reduce calories to lose more BF on a high fat, zero-carb regime.

The key is to eat 'enough fat' and that is best determined while eating each meal. Measurements are pertinent only on conventional, carb- containing 'diets' which function as 'weight loss' regimes only by limiting caloric intake to less than your energy use.

Thanks for stating the obvious, Bear! I do tend to over-analyze things and miss the forest for the trees.

The carbs in the past couple weeks have all come from eggs, a tad bit of cheese (really not that much), and some coconut bars I made. The ingredients are a cup coconut oil, a couple scoops of whey protein powder, 1/2 cup natural peanut butter (no sugar or preservatives), a cup of unsweetened coconut, and a bit of sweetener (I use Splenda). The carbs are mostly in the unsweetened coconut.

Thanks again. It will be hard, but I'll give up all the measuring. I'll even take my food scale down and store it in the cellar!

Listen to my body, huh? Gosh, I've tried everything else, might as well try what actually makes sense!

Bear how rare do you eat your fish...or better yet what kinds of fish are safe to eat rare? I have seen too many shows where people have got parisites from rare fish

Bear,
you must be right! The last 36 days of my diet have proven you right in your above statements you made in your last post! The body DOES KNOW! i have put all my food into fitday for 36 days, just to see what i am eating and make sure i was on the right track. I wasnt trying for any certain amount of calories or fat grams or protein. The ONLY thing i was counting was carbs and staying under 20 a day. Fitday shows that when i eat when i am hungry and stick mostly to meat,eggs and fat..my body naturally eats around 70% fat and 30% protein. EVERY DAY. My fat over 36 days has ranged from 65-78%..never under or over that amount. The calories have ranged from 1400-2300 per day, but seem to average around 1800 to 1900 calories (of course thats with 20 carbs per day. I'd be willing to BET that by eating only carbs from eggs or cheese (5 or under per day) that those calories would shoot up to average 2,000 or more a day and i bet my fat would stay in about the same range maybe on the higer side towards the 78%. And since there hasnt been a change in 36 days i guess my body has just naturally eaten exactly what it should be eating (except for those extra 20 carbs i was giving it). I am SICK to death of plugging every morsel into fit day, only for it to tell me the same thing every day anyway!! lol You have freed me to just go, eat and enjoy my food and not be a slave to my scale and my fitday stats..thanks Bear! i am off to eat some eggs...ahhhh freedom!

Bear,
i think you forgot to answer my questions from post 984. You can forget the question about the olive oil, i went back and found the post about the olive oil in the beginning of this thread. I decided to ditch the olive oil altogether. If i am gonna eat the way you do, i may as well follow all your advice!! Do you ever cook your eggs in coconut oil? Do you use coconut oil often?

THATS ME!!! I have been faithful to under 20 carbs a day for 5 weeks..and guess what?? The first 3 weeks i lost great (8lbs week 1, 4 lbs week 2 and 3 lbs week 3). Then i lost NOTHING on week 4, and i gained a lb on week 5. i never cheated once! i was strictly following the induction rules. YET...i stopped losing!!! I am gonna take your word for it that its the 20 carbs that stopped me from continued loss.
Your right, i am one of those that have been doing lots of THINKING..but its time to stop putzing around and start DOING this carnivore thing!! Wish me Luck Bear...i need it!! i made it through today just fine!!

Avoid peanut butter, it is toxic, very hard to digest (somewhat constipating), and and pretty carby- the oil is unsat-heavy. Coconut meat may also be carby, how much depends on the method of preparation from the seed- many propcessor add sugar. Why eat such stuff? It is not good to stress your insides this way with roughage.

Parasites are found in fresh water fish from the US great lakes, and from some European fresh water locations- the parasite in question is the broad or fish tapeworm, diphyllobrothrium lata. Some coastal pacific ocean species like salmon often carry the cisterciae (resting larval phase) of a parasite of seals, the so-called 'sushi worm'. Properly trained Japanese sushi chefs are trained to find and discard the cisterciae. Sushi worms cannot penetrate the human stomach but cause a kind of ulcer-like discomfort for a few weeks until it dies. I once got some from eating sashimi from the fatty belly part of a salmon I had caught. Otherwise, all salt water fish if very fresh are good raw, as are most farmed freshies. We raise fish here in our dam. If you are in doubt, freezing fish destroys any parasites present.

I rarely use oils- perhaps some mac nut oil with butter for fish. I prefer animal fats. I see no problem with spice mixes, I use many of Peter Watson's brilliant ones. That said, a true carnivore LOVES the plain meat taste, and really needs little in the way of spices- it is just for the occasional 'entertainment' value.

Ok, here is another of my unique recipes- this one is for you egg lovers out there.

The -wich story. A ham 'sandwich' could be called a ham 'breadwich'. In this way you can construct various names for other meaty dishes by substituting something else for the bread covers.

Eggs and cheese can make two kinds of -wich, the cheese eggwich and the egg cheesewich. The eggwich has eggs on the outside, and is a hot dish- the cheesewich has cold poached or fried egg between thick slices of cheese, good for a bag lunch. We are going to describe how to make the first one, usually eaten as a hot lunch or brekky:

In an 8 in (20cm) skillet with butter (Scanpan Ceramic Titanium is best) on low heat, break three eggs and break their yolks.

Add a very light sprinkle of chilli powder (like Texas Gunpowder, which is dried jalapeña) and fresh grind on a little black pepper (don't over-do the peppers). Other spices can be experimented with, but the two peppers do just fine. Layer on thin slices of cheese, like cheddar, Jarlsberg etc.- enough to cover the eggs.

Break on top, two more eggs and break their yolks. Carefully see to it that the cheese is covered with egg. Add some more butter. Watch closely and when the bottom eggs are just jelled, carefully flip the mass over, cook for a short additional time and serve.

It will take some practice to get it right, but once you do, it is easy and a true delight. It is one of our favourites around here. Properly done, the melted cheese is nicely sealed between two layers of egg, with a pleasant colour on the outside. Kids love it.

In fact- everyone loves a cheese eggwich.

That is what I LOVE... melted cheese over fried eggs! I will definitely try this way of doing it! Thanks, Bear!

Melted cheese INSIDE fried eggs!

Right... what I mean is, in the past, I have always enjoyed melted cheese over fried eggs, and will now "try this way of doing it" (meaning the way you described... cheese on the inside). Sorry, I was not very clear. My brain is fried! Bad joke, I know!

Man... this thread is getting VERY LONG! This is post #999! And, the next post will be post #1000!

See what I mean... here it is... post #1000!

Must something here of value. Or at least, of interest.

Well... if you read through a lot of the threads on this forum, you will notice a "trend"... that is, people having problems losing while eating fruits and nuts and other such carbs (even though this is "legal" on paleo diets). You will also notice many people questioning even eating veggies... and admitting that they rarely do. You will also find people speaking of eating 80% fat... eating lots of saturated animal fat... etc., etc. I mean, seriously. Just read this short thread as only one example of what I'm talking about. And, notice the dates!

THEN, you come along and it is like Whoa! Too much for most people to even deal with. Here is someone telling them things they already suspected!... and LIVING this way for 47 frickin' years! I think that is the "something of value" that is hitting home. Even those that say they disagree are peeking into this thread and wondering... yah... you know who you are! Like YOU!!!

Bear.

Do you know others that are eating your way and for how long?
If so, are they folks that you communicate with and might they be interested in joining this conversation and share their experiences too?

Deano, you get 1st prize (a steak) for the 1000th post! Just throw me a bone for 1002- and I'll eat the marrow....

Okay, Bear got second, I got 3rd.

that cheese eggwich sounds delicious Bear! i will definitely try it. I love when you post your recipes! Keep em coming!! (i have all your recipes written down.) This week i am definitely cooking that Chicken with the cream cheese and butter inside!! I can't believe i am finally breaking down and trying your WOE! I kept telling myself i could never do it. Now i actually believe i can. Just think ..47 yrs from now i will come back here and start a thread just like yours..he he!! My in-laws are gonna think I'm a nutcase when i go there for EAster dinner...lol
Bear, i am really glad you came here and shared your WOE with us!! Some of us really needed to hear what you have to say, even though we want to fight it every step of the way..lol. Ok, its very late and i am getting giddy.

FEW are those who are 'called' and fewer yet are those who are 'chosen'.

I can think of some on this thread who have tried, like Rob, and a few I no longer keep in touch with who also tried it for a while. I think my son Starfinder is honestly trying, he understands the carnivory of humans very well from his extensive veterinary training, but he still finds it hard, and is not always totally strict, like I am today - but on the path, falling off from time to time- just a little as I did. He is only 35.

Everyone who is truly interested in this lifestyle will have an uphill battle against their acculturation. This is compounded by all your friends and family who will go to any end to try to get you to eat as they think you should. This is social again. Never underestimate the incredible power of the human societal culture and everyone's early training, it is what makes us human, and different from all other animals. The only thing more difficult to alter than you early acculturation is your skin colour... Hang in there. If I could do it, anyone can.

Hey- Michael Jackson even managed to change his skin colour.... sort of.

theBear...this is one of the most informative threads on this site and as Dean has said previously, people have been peeking in and going on to other threads quoting info from here. More and more people are willing to try this way of eating simply because they secretly always enjoyed meat eating and vegetables were an uncomfortable issue with them when they were with others. They have been pointed in a different direction and they see the light! There is nothing that speaks more eloquently than a person's 47 year personal experience. I am much more interested in that than a skewed "research" book. There are enough of those that are out there.

If you ask me, he was also able to change his species ... sort of.