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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 01:25
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
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Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default OK, Gout Anyone?

OK, a few weeks ago I was having muscle pain and difficulty sleeping and wondered if it had anything to do with my new LC WOE. I read about LC causing a rise in uric acid. When I asked here about that I determined the muscle pain I was having was unrelated to uric acid. I started taking an extra 1300mg of potassium per day and the muscle pain has cleared up either because of the extra potassium or just by it self or whatever...

This is something totally different now. For the past two weeks I have been having a burning pain in my left big toe only. The pain is only in the joint right behind by big toe nail, the very first joint, (not the big main joint where the back of the toe connects to the foot).

It does not seem to bother me during the day when I am up walking around, only when I lay down at night and if I lay with my toe a certain way it does not burn and I fall asleep. Now its starting to wake me up at night and for the past few nights I have been taking 400-600mg of ibuprofen which helps.

The toe is not swollen, red and does not appear effected in any way to the eye but I feel a painful burning in that joint.

One of the remedies for gout is weight loss which of course I have been working on. Also low potassium can aggravate the condition but I am already taking potassium supplement. Any other ideas on what I can do?
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 10:41
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,089
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 242.5/213/207 Female 66
BF:High wt, 276, 255
Progress: 83%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
Default

I was just reading this and think you might find some helpful info here:

THE ALKALINE DIET VS ACIDIC KETONES

https://optimisingnutrition.com/201...acidic-ketones/

In the comment section someone says:

"P.S.–this same acid-alkaline info also works on gout, making gout more of a pH issue than a purine issue."

Marty Kendall says, "yeah. agree."
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 11:00
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
I was just reading this and think you might find some helpful info here:

THE ALKALINE DIET VS ACIDIC KETONES

https://optimisingnutrition.com/201...acidic-ketones/

In the comment section someone says:

"P.S.–this same acid-alkaline info also works on gout, making gout more of a pH issue than a purine issue."

Marty Kendall says, "yeah. agree."


Hey thanks for this. I'm going to see my doctor today because this is really a problem for me now. It would be nice if I could treat this with supplements or by altering my diet a bit.
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 14:19
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Posts: 3,857
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

1 tsp of unsweetened tart cherry juice concentrate (~2.5 g carbs) works to get rid of any big toe gout pain that I've had.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 19:40
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,206
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/183/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Texas
Default

I had some bad heal pain that came out of nowhere and after reading a lot and looking around the internet something that got my attention was an article talking about the rise in scurvy because of the lack of vitamin C in the low carb diet.
The other article was about WWll veterans POWs who had it,
said that it starts out in the extremities. I began taking C and (knock on wood) it's gone.
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 21:44
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
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Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
1 tsp of unsweetened tart cherry juice concentrate (~2.5 g carbs) works to get rid of any big toe gout pain that I've had.


I saw my doctor today and he prescribed Indomethacin for the pain and recommended "tart cherry juice", 1 or 2 oz a day which he said should help. He thinks its probably going to be temporary and advised me to stay on my plan.

I did some checking on the Indomethacin and it has some nasty side effects such as water retention and elevates BG

For the time being, I will use the pain meds at night to help me sleep and and hope the cherry juice works in the long run. Thanks for the confirmation!
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Oct-17-17, 21:51
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
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Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
I had some bad heal pain that came out of nowhere and after reading a lot and looking around the internet something that got my attention was an article talking about the rise in scurvy because of the lack of vitamin C in the low carb diet.


I'm taking a vitamin supplement which includes plenty of C so I should be OK there. I've been trying to address the issue in my diet without much success so far. I'm hoping it's just a temporary thing.
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-17, 03:29
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,389
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

In your previous thread on gout and uric acid, you had posted the DietDoctor article about it. https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/side-effects/gout
The second link in that is to another article about why a TEMPORARY increase in Uric acid can occur in the first months of low carb. There are some tips to help in both articles. https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb...ects/gout#start
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-17, 09:47
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
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Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
In your previous thread on gout and uric acid, you had posted the DietDoctor article about it. https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/side-effects/gout
The second link in that is to another article about why a TEMPORARY increase in Uric acid can occur in the first months of low carb. There are some tips to help in both articles. https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb...ects/gout#start


Yes, I re-read those articles as well and they seem to say its a problem in the first 6 weeks and I'm i my 11th week. One thing those articles do not mention is dehydration which is one of the common triggers for gout and I am beginning to wonder if I brought this on myself by not drinking enough water. I've been so concerned about losing weight I think I might have been going overboard on avoiding salt and reducing my water weight, (if you remember I did have edema when I started this).

I have been ignoring all the advice I have been reading about drinking plenty of water on a LC diet. I drink maybe 2-3 cups of coffee a day and maybe one or two glasses of cold water or tea after sweating in a hot bath at night and that's about it. Also my skin is very dry.

Last night I drank a gallon of water and peed a lot this morning. I slept much better than I have in some time and the pain in my toe was almost gone and its been about 14 hours since I took a pain pill. I am going to continue to go heavy on water for a few days and try to flush out my system and see if that helps.
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-17, 10:26
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Kinmount Kinmount is offline
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Posts: 505
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 205/181.8/145 Female 5 ft 4 in
BF:
Progress: 39%
Location: Southern Ontario
Default

My husband gets gout in his big toe periodically. He drinks organic black cherry juice when it flairs up and it works for him. The challenge when low carbing is finding some that's not carb dense.

Lots of stuff on the internet says it can be caused by too much red meat. We eat a lot more chicken and pork now and he gets it less often.
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Oct-18-17, 10:47
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
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Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

It's still too early to tell, but I am really falling for this dehydration idea. I mean, I've been really dehydrated I think. I was noticing symptoms of dehydration and was becoming concerned about it even before I found the link to gout and blood pH. So far, I have done nothing except drink a lot of water and pee like crazy and the pain seems to be gone. I don't think it could be from the one pain pill I took 15 hours ago.

The reason I ran to my doctor was because I even felt it starting in the other foot - now that's gone too! Again, I need a few more days to be sure I think.

Only problem is I'm up 6 pounds!
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Oct-19-17, 04:33
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,389
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Yikes, since coffee is dehydrating and you should drink a glass of water for every one you have...so you have been in negative hydration recently. It's no wonder every joint didn't hurt.
And the cure for edema, counter-intuitive, is to drink more water! http://healthyliving.azcentral.com/...a-12289030.html This article also states to increase water slowly, but you have blown past that recommendation already just stay off the scale.

Tip from recent Arthritis Summit. Cartilage is 80% water, first thing to do for joint pain is drink more water. And my own tip gleaned from who knows which doctor, is drink 16 oz of water after awakening before drinking coffee, and a cup before meals. Your weight is the lowest in the morning as dehydrated, water then helps all systems return to normal, function well.
And if you are up for it, add a T or 2 of ACV to the cup of water before meals. http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...20&page=1&pp=15
Not suggesting you gulp down some crazy high amount of ounces based on your weight, but anybody needs more water than you have been drinking. Coffee, tea, alcohol or caffeine in anything does not count.

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Oct-19-17 at 04:42.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Oct-19-17, 08:13
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 12,916
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

I was going to say that if the diuretic effect of coffee was all it's put up to be, I'd be dessicated. But people who drink large amounts of caffeine become more tolerant and get less of its effects, that includes the diuretic effect. So I'm here to suggest an amendment, rather than a disagreement to what Jey said.

https://www.webmd.com/arthritis/new...-gout-attacks#1

A bit from WebMed here;

Quote:
Nov. 11, 2010 (Atlanta) -- An extra jolt or two of caffeine may trigger a gout attack in people with the painful and often disabling arthritic condition, preliminary research suggests.

"We found that overall, as the number of servings of caffeinated beverages increased, so too did the chance of having recurrent gout attacks," says Tuhina Neogi, MD, PhD, associate professor of medicine at Boston University School of Medicine.

For example, drinking four servings of caffeinated beverages in the previous 24 hours was associated with an 80% increased risk of recurrent gout attacks, compared with having no caffeinated drinks.

Drinking more than six servings of caffeinated beverages in the previous day was associated with a 3.3-fold higher risk of a flare-up, the study of 663 gout patients suggests.

When habitual and occasional caffeine drinkers were looked at separately, the link was only observed in people with gout who typically drink less than two caffeinated beverages a day, Neogi tells WebMD.

"As little as three servings a day could do it for these people," she says.

"In contrast, in people with gout who usually have two or more caffeinated beverages a day, increasing caffeine intake doesn't appear to raise the risk of gout attacks," Neogi says.

The study does not prove cause and effect, just that there appears to be an association between higher caffeine intake in the past 24 hours and an increased risk of gout attacks. People with gout who drink a lot of revved-up beverages may share some other characteristic that makes them more prone to flare-ups, researchers say.

The findings were presented here at the American College of Rheumatology's annual meeting.

Caffeine's Chemical Structure Similar to Standard Gout Medication

Gout occurs when too much uric acid, a normal byproduct of DNA metabolism, builds up in the body. This leads to crystal formation. The crystals deposit in the joints, causing painful swelling.

Previous research has shown that, over the long term, caffeine intake is associated with lower levels of uric acid in the body and a lower risk of developing gout among people who do not have the arthritic condition, Neogi says.


Caffeine is a purine, that's why it works, it blocks receptors normally responsive to adenosine, another purine.

The idea of a protective effect for people who haven't developed gout is interesting, as a purine molecule that the body has to dispose of somehow, maybe pathways that reduce caffeine are upregulated and also have an effect on uric acid?
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Oct-19-17, 08:32
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
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Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Yikes, since coffee is dehydrating and you should drink a glass of water for every one you have


As with so many other things when it comes to eating / nutrition, I'm finding that separating fact from fiction is sometimes very difficult to do. One thing I'm pretty sure about though is that coffee is not dehydrating; I'm pretty sure that one has been shown to be a myth. Some studies have shown that caffeine my have a "mild" diuretic effect but have also shown that people who regularly drink coffee or caffeinated beverages also develop a tolerance for the effect.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...tion-and-memory

What I do know is that I am making a major change to my diet this week and will consume at least 64oz of fluids per day going forward be it coffee, tea, (I recently discovered Milo's Sweet Tea - zero calorie of course - and YUM!), water or whatever.

It is a bit difficult for me to *completely* differentiate the tingling and "discomfort?" that comes from the neuropathy in my feet and the "gout like burning pain" I've had for the past two weeks in that one joint that's been getting worse. Last night the burning pain in that joint was all but gone and I did not require any pain medication - all I have ever taken was that one pill day before yesterday.

Also my edema has not, as yet, returned - at least as far as I can tell. I have gained what appears to be about 6 pounds of water weight and it has leveled off at that point. I keep drinking lots of water but my weight has not continued to increase. I am urinating much more frequently now. My keytone strips have gone form dark purple to dark pink but I'm thinking that may have to do with increased volume.

At any rate, I'm sticking with my eating plan and I know that regardless of what the scale says I cannot possibly gain more fat by drinking more water so I am going to probably ignore it this Sunday and consider this week to be a one time adjustment to my plan. I am going to treat water like carbs to the extent that i am going to closely monitor my fluid intake and make sure I'm getting enough.

Last edited by TucsonBill : Thu, Oct-19-17 at 08:42.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Oct-19-17, 09:00
TucsonBill's Avatar
TucsonBill TucsonBill is offline
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Posts: 339
 
Plan: ≤ 20 carbs & IF
Stats: 292/235/170 Male 72 Inches
BF:
Progress: 47%
Location: Tucson, AZ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser


This whole incident has been kind of frustrating to me. I have never had gout before, no one in my family to my knowledge has had gout or anything more than mild arthritis. I've always been a big coffee drinker and before I started this WOE, the canned Starbucks Double Shots + Energy and other various caffeine stoked energy / coffee drinks were part of my daily staple. I have no doubt that my intake of caffeine has gone way down because I discontinued the energy drinks.

I think what Jay said that it being a wonder that every joint didn't hurt is probably true - or perhaps would have been true based on where I was headed. Unless it comes back, I'm going to assume I brought this condition on myself by restricting my fluids so much. I figure I've been running 3-4 quarts low on water, so far as I can tell. Also I've been taking hot baths every night and sweating off as much as I can stand. I'm going to stop that too.
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